Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

You still haven't answered my questions.  You criticize others' responses; yet you either refuse to answer or you dance around others' questions.

I have answered your questions.  You just don't want my answers.

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

So being yet a non-believer before you got baptized in the baptistry, Jesus did not yet die for you, then moments later AFTER your baptism it was then that He died for you?

I don't know how it works in your native language, but in English we usually answer a question with an answer; not another question.

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

I have answered your questions.  You just don't want my answers.

Please refresh my memory.  I'm old.

[Samie]

Just now, JoeMo said:

I don't know how it works in your native language, but in English we usually answer a question with an answer; not another question.

Oh, I see, then remove the question mark at the end of my statement. Here:

So being yet a non-believer before you got baptized in the baptistry, Jesus did not yet die for you, then moments later AFTER your baptism it was then that He died for you.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

Please refresh my memory.  I'm old.

Oh, sorry. I'm yet busy with new issues you just brought up.

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

So being yet a non-believer before you got baptized in the baptistry, Jesus did not yet die for you, then moments later AFTER your baptism it was then that He died for you.

No; as I, Rachel, and jackson have stated before.  We CHOSE to accept Christ's death for us; and demonstrated that through the public act of baptism  Christ died for all; but an individual must CHOOSE to accept that sacrifice for it to take effect in an individual. 

[Samie]

Just now, JoeMo said:

No; as I, Rachel, and jackson have stated before.  We CHOSE to accept Christ's death for us; and demonstrated that through the public act of baptism  Christ died for all; but an individual must CHOOSE to accept that sacrifice for it to take effect in an individual. 

Where did you get that idea? From the Bible? Where? What verse or verses?

[JoeMo]

14 minutes ago, Samie said:

I have answered your questions.  You just don't want my answers

My answer to you is the same.

[Samie]

Just now, JoeMo said:

My answer to you is the same.

So where's your previous answer to my recent question?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, jackson said:

 

Before going any further, let's get back to Bible Study 101. Do you believe  1 John 1:9  and other Bible verses that say repentance is necessary for forgiveness

1 John  1:9    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Prvb  28:13    He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.  

Mark 1:4          John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 

Those verses don't say that repentance is necessary for forgiveness.

[Samie]

Repentance is the Greek metanoia - change of mind for that which is good.  Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead.  Repentance is overcoming evil with good, doable only by those who are already in Christ - the ONLY Source of Power for doing good.

[Samie]

And those in Christ are those ALREADY forgiven.  When one is not forgiven of sin, he is APART from or NOT in Him because sin separates man from God.

[Samie]

And all sins were forgiven when Christ died.

NAS Colossians 2:13-14  And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[JoeMo]

46 minutes ago, Samie said:

Oh, sorry. I'm yet busy with new issues you just brought up.

My answer is the same.

[Samie]

23 minutes ago, Samie said:

And all sins were forgiven when Christ died.

NAS Colossians 2:13-14  And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

But the trio want me to believe them instead of Scriptures.  Sorry, no way, folks.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

But the trio want me to believe them instead of Scriptures.  Sorry, no way, folks.

They even were desperately trying to convince me people APART from Christ can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.  Sorry, I'd rather believe Christ Who said: APART from Me man can do NOTHING. John 15:5.

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Samie said:

Repentance is the Greek metanoia - change of mind for that which is good.  Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead.  Repentance is overcoming evil with good, doable only by those who are already in Christ - the ONLY Source of Power for doing good.

Samie, 

Have you ever been around a really strong magnet?  I have.  When I used to administer anesthesia, I sometimes took care of little children, who had to be sedated for an MRI.   We had a protocol - to make sure everything metal was removed from anyone in the MRI room, before they turned on the magnet (Magnetic Resonance Imagery).  If you didn't take off your earrings, that magnet would pull them from your ears, and might tear your ear in the process.  We had to have plastic stethoscopes, etc. etc.  When the magnet came on, anything metal would fly across the room to stick on the magnet, with such force - it could hurt anyone in the way - like a bullet hitting them. 

Well - God is the "magnet".   And we are like the metal.  But God has given us the power to RESIST, but we have to really dig our heels in.  Otherwise we will be drawn to Christ. 

You Samie, talk like the FORCE or "power" has to be "in" us.  It doesn't.  I just has to DRAW us from the outside - like the powerful magnet. 

Now - once we  "open" our heart/mind "door" and allow Christ to come in, THEN we become part of the magnet.  We become "magnetized" - as it were, and God is able to use us, to draw others to Himself. 

[JoeMo]

21 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

once we  "open" our heart/mind "door" and allow Christ to come in, THEN we become part of the magnet.  We become "magnetized" - as it were, and God is able to use us, to draw others to Himself. 

Nice analogy, Rachel!

[8thdaypriest]

Paul said,  "I die daily!"  (1Cor 15:31)  If Paul actually died WHEN Christ died, then why does Paul need to DIE over and over and over - daily?  This verse suggests - to me - that our crucifixion "with Christ" is something that happens by CHOICE, over and over - as we CHOOSE to follow Him.

Paul is obeying the command of Christ. 

Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

To be "crucified with Christ" is to DENY ones self. 

Matthew 10:38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (NRS) 

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

Here Jesus words make it a CHOICE to DIE with Him.  We "take up" the cross.  And we "follow" after Christ.  These words do NOT convey the idea that every human being who ever lived, was [past tense] crucified, along with Christ, on the same day and died at the very same moment WHEN Christ died.

The TENSE in these verses "follow" and "come AFTER" convey the idea that we choose to follow in Christ's footsteps, NOT that our death is something already DONE FOR US.

Luke 14:27 "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

 

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Well - God is the "magnet".   And we are like the metal.  But God has given us the power to RESIST, but we have to really dig our heels in.  Otherwise we will be drawn to Christ. 

So Rachel, you are now throwing in the towel for the PLUGGED IN analogy? IF Yes, then I'll bite your MAGNET-metal analogy. What do you say?

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Well - God is the "magnet".   And we are like the metal.

Agree, as I agreed with the PLUGGED IN to Christ analogy.  We did NOT plug ourselves in to Christ. God PLUGGED us IN to Him when He fashioned us into the Body of His Son.  We cannot UNPLUG ourselves.  He will UNPLUG us by blotting our names from the book of life if He judges us as non-overcomers.  Our being PLUGGED IN to Christ is the Past Tense of Salvation.

Same thing with the magnet-metal analogy.  As the iron filings cannot resist being drawn to the REALLY POWERFUL MAGNET, so with us.  We were born metals already attached to the REALLY POWERFUL MAGNET - Christ.  And we remain attached to Him UNTIL and UNLESS He removes us from being attached to Him by blotting our names from the book of life.

 

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But God has given us the power to RESIST, but we have to really dig our heels in.  Otherwise we will be drawn to Christ.

I don't believe metals have the power to resist being drawn, as you erroneously teach.  Where did you get the idea of an iron filing desperately hanging on to the table top resisting the drawing power of the REALLY POWERFUL MAGNET?

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Paul said,  "I die daily!"  (1Cor 15:31)  If Paul actually died WHEN Christ died, then why does Paul need to DIE over and over and over - daily?  This verse suggests - to me - that our crucifixion "with Christ" is something that happens by CHOICE, over and over - as we CHOOSE to follow Him.

Paul is obeying the command of Christ. 

Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."

To be "crucified with Christ" is to DENY ones self. 

Matthew 10:38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (NRS) 

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

Here Jesus words make it a CHOICE to DIE with Him.  We "take up" the cross.  And we "follow" after Christ.  These words do NOT convey the idea that every human being who ever lived, was [past tense] crucified, along with Christ, on the same day and died at the very same moment WHEN Christ died.

The TENSE in these verses "follow" and "come AFTER" convey the idea that we choose to follow in Christ's footsteps, NOT that our death is something already DONE FOR US.

Luke 14:27 "And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Those verses you quoted above occur under the Present Tense of Salvation. NOT under the Past Tense of Salvation.  The taking up of the cross, the following our Shepherd, etc., all occur under the Present Tense of Salvation where we are COMMANDED to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.

But to be In Christ, to be part of His Body, falls under the Past Tense of Salvation.  All grace. NOT an iota of human participation.

 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

I don't believe metals have the power to resist being drawn, as you erroneously teach.  Where did you get the idea of an iron filing desperately hanging on to the table top resisting the drawing power of the REALLY POWERFUL MAGNET?

Really, Samie?  First of all, have you ever heard of an analogy? Rachels' analogy is just a model that demonstrates reality.  It is not reality itself.  Second, Rachel never said the iron filing had the ability to resist the magnetic pull.  Iron filings do not have a free will that I know of - they CAN'T resist.  We humans on the other hand DO have a free will.  We have the ability (and inborn inclination) to resist.

[JoeMo]

23 hours ago, jackson said:

Prvb  28:13    He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.  

Then Samie said: Those verses don't say that repentance is necessary for forgiveness.

Yes they do - if confessing and forsaking does not fit your definition of repentance, then what does?  Or is your next rabbit trail that "having mercy" is different than "forgiveness"?

[Samie]

52 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Really, Samie?  First of all, have you ever heard of an analogy? Rachels' analogy is just a model that demonstrates reality.  It is not reality itself.  Second, Rachel never said the iron filing had the ability to resist the magnetic pull.  Iron filings do not have a free will that I know of - they CAN'T resist.  We humans on the other hand DO have a free will.  We have the ability (and inborn inclination) to resist.

Resisting occurs under the Present Tense of Salvation, NOT under the Past Tense of Salvation.