Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

It is you who make Paul contradict himself when you insist that being crucified with Christ refers to the time of his crucifixion .

So how would you explain away God's fashioning humanity into the Body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:14-16), such that all died when He died (2 Cor 5:14, 15) and made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected (Col 2:13)?

 

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Go back one verse and you can see that Paul says you die and are buried with Christ at your baptism and rise from the water with Him through your faith

Col 2:12               Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You have to die first before you can be buried.  Death precedes burial.  Baptism simply symbolizes our being buried and risen with Him.  Paul EMPHASIZED "made alive TOGETHER with Him" but you want it "made alive one by one as each one believes"  instead of "TOGETHER with Christ". 

 

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Your old self is crucified when you choose to die to the world. That is a conscious decision each individual must make  through faith  Your old self, the one your born with,“ did not die when Christ died. It dies only when you consciously renounce it through faith and are baptized into a new life.

So, who was the "all" for whom Christ died that died when He died?

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Do you think Rachel, JoeMo and you, jackson, were not among the "all" for whom Christ died that died when He died, that is, crucified WITH HIM as Paul said in Gal 2:20?

[8thdaypriest]

Galatians 5:24 "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

You can't tell me that all those worldly folks out there, indulging with abandon their "passions and desires" were "crucified with Christ". 

Their actions say their "flesh" is very much still alive - NOT "crucified with Christ". 

Only those who ARE Christ's, no longer indulge their "passions" and selfish "desires".

[8thdaypriest]

The "all" - for whom Christ died - is NOT the entire world. 

Only all of those who believe in Him, and join Him in crucifying their sinful fleshly nature, are counted as part of the "all". 

His death will not be applied to those who refuse to join Him. 

God loved the entire world of men, but only "whosoever believes in Him" and "overcome the world" - will be counted as "crucified WITH HIM". 

 

As for the entire human race being born "in Christ":

Jesus was "born of God".  Therefore only those also "born of God" are "in Christ". 

 1 John 5:4 "for everyone born of God overcomes the world".  Christ was "born of God". 

1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin."

1 John 2:29  "everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him"

1 John 4:7 "everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."   Those who do NOT LOVE, were NOT "born of God". 

John 5:1 "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."   Those who do NOT believe, were NOT "born of God."

 

The actions of those NOT "born of God" (or "in Christ") SHOW they were not so born. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

If I have verses of Scripture running through my mind all day, that pertain to this thread - I will post them.  

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Galatians 5:24 "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

You can't tell me that all those worldly folks out there, indulging with abandon their "passions and desires" were "crucified with Christ".

 Yes, they were crucified with Christ and made alive TOGETHER WITH Him.  They are now PLUGGED IN to Christ - the ONLY Source of POWER, and they can NOW do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.  BUT instead of using the power of Christ to do good, they use it to do evil.  And God DOES NOT override their FREE WILL.  When they die and God judges them as non-overcomers, Christ will blot their names out from the book of life.

 

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Their actions say their "flesh" is very much still alive - NOT "crucified with Christ". 

Only those who ARE Christ's, no longer indulge their "passions" and selfish "desires".

Adam was created in the image of God yet he sinned.  Same goes with the "all" for whom Christ died that died with Him and made alive together with Him.  I have for so many times explained this in this thread and in several other threads ever since.

The only difference between what I am saying and what you are saying, Rachel, is the WHEN of being in Christ. I am just trying to very clearly show you that there is something WRONG with the view that UNLESS people first believe they can NOT be in Christ.  And when you brought up the "PLUGGED IN" to Christ analogy, I thought we were getting somewhere, because that analogy fits like glove with Jesus' words "WITHOUT ME" or "APART FROM ME", man can do NOTHING.

Anyone NOT in Christ is NOT plugged in to Him.  In Jesus' words, he is APART from Him.  Hence he is POWERLESS to do any spiritual act like believing, repenting, deciding to be baptized, etc.  BUT, and this is the big BUT, we both know that every normal person with whom we come into contact with is capable of believing, repenting, deciding to be baptized.  So what does this tell us?  It simply tells us that the person is ALREADY empowered to do these spiritual acts PRIOR to his RESPONDING to or REJECTING the altar call.

Hence, that tells me, people are born ALREADY in Christ - the ONLY Source of POWER to do any spiritual act.  And I think Scripture is on my side in this issue.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,  I doubt anyone dialoging in this thread, has any delusions - hoping to change YOUR mind on this issue.  I believe you are locked in to your view on this. 

I have been clarifying - for myself - my understanding concerning this issue of the "when".   I tried to clear my preconceived opinions on this.  I even prayed to approach it with an open mind. 

After much searching and praying, I believe the weight of Scripture evidence falls on the side of "plugged in" by faith WHEN we come to believe.  Until that moment we are regarded by Heaven as  - "dead in trespasses and sins" - "without hope" - "without Christ" - not yet "born again" - unwashed - "uncircumcised" (by Christ) .   Certainly NOT "in Christ" from the moment of our physical birth, or from the day our forefather Adam sinned.

WHEN we come to believe in Jesus, He then creates a new life in us, and we are "born again" from our condition of "dead in trespasses and sins". 

So long as Jesus is on the OUTSIDE of our hearts - knocking only, He cannot create that new life, and we cannot be "born again". 

Yes - God our Father through Jesus, helps us come to believe.  He draws and pleads - by His spirit - convicting us.  But we are STILL spiritually DEAD until that moment when we surrender to Him - "open the door to Him".   So- we are NOT doing something "without Him".  

And we can unplug - turn off - at any time.  If so - then we go right back to being "DEAD". 

While it is true that we all have the circuitry in place - the "wiring" as it were.  We must throw the switch, before the "electricity" (power) can flow.   And we must "abide in" Him.  We must leave the switch "on". 

Imagine Jesus trying to explain to 11 Galilean fishermen, what a cell-phone is.  I believe our brains have built-in heavenly "receivers".  But just like our cell-phones, we don't have to answer a call.  We can actually silence the "ringer".  

If I come across any Scriptures that have not yet been highlighted in this thread - I will post more, but I feel we have been repeating and repeating for some time now. 

 

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,  I doubt anyone dialoging in this thread, has any delusions - hoping to change YOUR mind on this issue.  I believe you are locked in to your view on this. 

I simply think I am not STUPID to knowingly and purposely allow myself to get stuck in error and also preach what I know is error.  Between what you are saying and what I am saying, I guess mine is nearer the truth for the following obvious reasons:

1. It is in accord with what Jesus said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2.  It is in accord with the call for people to repent or perish.  Ezek 18:30; Acts 17:30; Mark 1:14, 15; Luke 13:3, 5

3.  It is in accord with what Paul said that he was alive and then died. Rom 7:9

4.  It is in accord with the biblical pronouncement that all died when Christ died and made alive TOGETHER WITH Him.  2 Cor 5:14, 15; Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

5.  It is in accord with the scriptural record that on the cross, God fashioned humanity (Jews & Gentiles) into the Body of His Son. Eph 2:14-16

6.  It is in accord with what scripture says that all were given a measure of faith.  Rom 12:3

7.  It is in accord with the whole of Scriptures in the idea that God is agape love hence He wouldn't have just simply left Adam who fell into sin to drown in it, but will save him, being the loving Father that He is and just like any loving earthly father would have done upon seeing his child fall into the water.  This is revealed by Christ -  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 2 Tim 1:8-10; Rev 13:8

And it is even in accord with your own analogy of being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ.

On the other hand, what you are saying (with most preachers) that people cannot be attached to Christ UNLESS they first believe is, in my opinion, incorrect.  In fact, it even goes against your own analogy of being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ.  Here again:

1.  If one is NOT in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

 

[JoeMo]

9 minutes ago, Samie said:

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

Then it also necessarily follows that if one forsakes his inheritance and rejects Christ that he/she can never come back.

12 minutes ago, Samie said:

On the other hand, what you are saying (with most preachers) that people cannot be attached to Christ UNLESS they first believe is, in my opinion, incorrect.  In fact, it even goes against your own analogy of being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ.

No it doesn't - the source of power is only useful if the recipient of the power flips the "switch".  My lamp is always plugged in; but it does me no good unless I flip the switch.

Maybe Rachel, Jackson, and I wouldn't argue against you so stridently if you would just state that you "don't believe as we do" rather than stating that we are just "wrong".  You can believe whatever you want; but we are not "wrong" just because we don't believe like you do.

20 minutes ago, Samie said:

Between what you are saying and what I am saying, I guess mine is nearer the truth for the following obvious reasons:

 

14 hours ago, Samie said:

I am just trying to very clearly show you that there is something WRONG with the view that UNLESS people first believe they can NOT be in Christ. 

Are you so infallible that you can climb up on your judgement throne and judge us as "wrong"?  The simple fact of the matter is that we don't believe like you do; we CAN'T believe like you do; neither can 95% of the people on this forum.  Trust me - you may be a more ardent Bible student than I am; but I doubt that you are not more ardent than Rachel (I don't know Jackson well enough to make the same statement about him).  She is one of the best Bible researchers I have ever known.  Theologians "borrow" her stuff.

I for one will not debate this point with you any longer.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

Then it also necessarily follows that if one forsakes his inheritance and rejects Christ that he/she can never come back.

I guess you missed a myriad of my posts that it is only when a person dies that his name is blotted out from the book of life. Hence, there's hope while alive.

Born in Christ, we cannot sever ourselves from Him. It is ONLY Christ Who can DETACH one from His Body by blotting his name from the book of life.

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

aybe Rachel, Jackson, and I wouldn't argue against you so stridently if you would just state that you "don't believe as we do" rather than stating that we are just "wrong".  You can believe whatever you want; but we are not "wrong" just because we don't believe like you do.

 

Are you so infallible that you can climb up on your judgement throne and judge us as "wrong"?  The simple fact of the matter is that we don't believe like you do; we CAN'T believe like you do; neither can 95% of the people on this forum.  Trust me - you may be a more ardent Bible student than I am; but I doubt that you are not more ardent than Rachel (I don't know Jackson well enough to make the same statement about him).  She is one of the best Bible researchers I have ever known.  Theologians "borrow" her stuff.

I for one will not debate this point with you any longer.

Don't take it too personal, brother.  Please understand that English is not my first language.  I could be using words and phrases that for you with English as your first language are offensive, but of which I am not aware of.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't believe like you do; we CAN'T believe like you do; neither can 95% of the people on this forum.

Even 100% in this forum CAN'T believe me like you do, is that the gauge for truth or falsity of one's teaching, brother?

[Samie]

36 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Are you so infallible that you can climb up on your judgement throne and judge us as "wrong"?

I for one will not debate this point with you any longer.

Why do you get mad when someone tells you, you're wrong, brother?  I won't. 

You also used words which to me appeared offensive.  Why would I get mad? Why would I take it personally?  This is a discussion forum and that happens.  I think I am doing my best to just address issues and not attack nor judge people.  For me, to say that what I am posting is right and what you are posting is wrong is just normal in any discussion.  For me it's not personal attack against someone but simply a point of emphasis to parry objections because when I say your position is wrong I try my best to back it up with RELEVANT Bible verses.

I guess Jesus didn't get mad in similar situations.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So long as Jesus is on the OUTSIDE of our hearts - knocking only, He cannot create that new life, and we cannot be "born again". 

Yes - God our Father through Jesus, helps us come to believe.  He draws and pleads - by His spirit - convicting us.  But we are STILL spiritually DEAD until that moment when we surrender to Him - "open the door to Him".   So- we are NOT doing something "without Him".  

And we can unplug - turn off - at any time.  If so - then we go right back to being "DEAD". 

While it is true that we all have the circuitry in place - the "wiring" as it were.  We must throw the switch, before the "electricity" (power) can flow.   And we must "abide in" Him.  We must leave the switch "on". 

Imagine Jesus trying to explain to 11 Galilean fishermen, what a cell-phone is.  I believe our brains have built-in heavenly "receivers".  But just like our cell-phones, we don't have to answer a call.  We can actually silence the "ringer".  

If I come across any Scriptures that have not yet been highlighted in this thread - I will post more, but I feel we have been repeating and repeating for some time now.

What you are repeating are, to me, applicable to the Present Tense of Salvation.  Repentance, which is overcoming evil with good, occurs NOW in the present, now that we are already PLUGGED IN to Him.  Jesus knocks NOW for us to repent. 

But the issue is the WHEN of our being in Christ, the WHEN of our being PLUGGED IN to Him - the ONLY Source of POWER.  Born NOT plugged as you said, we cannot PLUG ourselves to Him.  To say that we PLUG ourselves by believing is senseless because it takes POWER to plug ourselves and we don't have any power yet being NOT plugged.

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, jackson said:

No one is born in Christ. We must hear His voice and come to Him by faith

For the nth time, jackson, instead of simply refusing, please explain how:

1.  One born NOT in Christ cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

[Samie]

The WHEN of our being in Christ is in the Past Tense of Salvation.  BELIEVING occurs in the Present Tense of Salvation where Jesus knocks at our heart's door for us to overcome evil with good.  And BELIEVING is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

I guess Jesus didn't get mad in similar situations.

Jesus is better than me (or you).

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Why do you get mad when someone tells you, you're wrong, brother?  I won't. 

I'm not mad. I'm DONE.  You're just a better person than me, Samie.  Blessings to you.

[Samie]

25 minutes ago, Samie said:

The WHEN of our being in Christ is in the Past Tense of Salvation.  BELIEVING occurs in the Present Tense of Salvation where Jesus knocks at our heart's door for us to overcome evil with good.  And BELIEVING is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

Believing is simply EXERCISING faith.  Since faith is fruit of the Spirit and only those in Christ can bear fruit, it then follows that all who have faith are in Christ. 

According to Scripture:

KJV Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since every man has faith, therefore every man is in Christ; UNTIL Christ Himself severs him from being part of His Body by blotting his name from the book of life when he dies, for being judged by God as a non-overcomer.  There's hope while alive.

 

[Samie]

Just now, jackson said:

Tell that to Paul, Junia and Andronicus. Tell that to the Ephesians who were once without Christ and are now in Christ  ce. Tell that to Jesus who thinks He has to knock on hearts before entering

No, jackson.

I'm telling that to people like you who teach AGAINST what Christ said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. 

I'm telling that to people like you who cannot believe that people are powerless UNLESS people are first in Christ.

I'm telling that to people like you who claim to have power even when APART from Christ.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

No one is born in Christ. We must hear His voice and come to Him by faith

For the nth time, jackson, instead of simply refusing, EXPLAIN your position:

1.  One born NOT in Christ cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

So, can you address the above Scriptures that CONTRADICT your concocted doctrine?   I doubt whether you'll even try.

[Samie]

14 minutes ago, jackson said:

Samie you never honestly confront a scripture that plainly contradicts your doctrine. You just repeat yourself over and over. I hope  you will start to see that no doctrine can stand when it contradicts other verses.

Oh, really?  Which verse(s)?

 

17 minutes ago, jackson said:

You have also made up a doctrine that one must already  be in Christ to hear his voice and let Him in, which is a complete contradiction of terms..

Contradiction of terms? Whose terms, yours? 

You can SPIRITUALLY hear while NOT in Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4)?  Since when can the spiritually dead hear spiritual things, jackson?

[Samie]

20 minutes ago, jackson said:

If he is knocking , he is not in you. Why is this so hard for you to accept?

His knocking at our hearts door is His call for us to REPENT.  That's how simple it is.  God is calling all people to repent because all people are CAPABLE of repenting.  They are BORN already PLUGGED IN to Christ, hence already empowered to REPENT.

So why did Jesus say you will still inherit the kingdom of God (Matt 25:34) when the kingdom of God is already within you (Luke 17:21)?

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, jackson said:

What Scripture Has Taught Us in This Thread.

1.      Everyone  is born with a measure of faith); hence one need not be in Christ to be drawn to Him (Rom 12:3 and John 1:9)

2.      No one is born in Christ. We must hear His voice and come to Him by faith ( Rom 8:1; Rom 16:7; 2 Cor 5:17; , 6:37, 6:56, 14:23; Eph 2:12-13; Rev 3:20; Matt 11:28; Mark 5:6-9; 1 John 5:20)

3.      Repentance is made possible by the gift of Godly sorrow and cannot be accomplished without God’s grace (Rom 2:4; 2 Cor 7:10)

4.      There is no forgiveness without repentance (Isa55:7; 2 Chron 7:14; Prvb 28:13; Matt 7:13; Mark 1:4 & 2:17; 1 John 1:9; Acts 5:31)

5.      No one is born forgiven or saved, for repentance must precede forgiveness and forgiveness  must precede salvation ( See verses from  #2

6.      The cross of Christ neither forgave nor saved anyone, but rather made ample provision for the same. One must choose to be saved.( see verses of #2  as well as Acts 2:21; Heb 7:25; John 1:12, 5:40, 10:9, 20:31; Rom 10:9; 1 Cor 15:2; Mark 16:16;  Matt 19:17

7.      All doctrine is to conform to scripture and cannot contradict it. (Isa 8:20; 2 Tim 3:16)

All those Scriptures are against your doctrine, jackson, as I have already shown, including the verses IRRELEVANT to the issue being discussed.

Again, for the nth time, jackson, instead of simply refusing, EXPLAIN your position:

1.  One born NOT in Christ cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

So, can you address the above Scriptures that CONTRADICT your concocted doctrine?   I doubt whether you'll even try.

[Samie]

23 minutes ago, jackson said:

1.      Everyone  is born with a measure of faith); hence one need not be in Christ to be drawn to Him

Can you NOT see the contradiction in your above statement, jackson?

Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) and Jesus said only those in Him can bear fruit (John15:4, 5).  So how can one be born with a measure of faith but NOT In Christ?  Don't you notice your disbelief in Christ's own words, jackson?

[Samie]

29 minutes ago, jackson said:

2.      No one is born in Christ. We must hear His voice and come to Him by faith

Wrong. 

You are saying you have power while NOT PLUGGED IN to Christ - the ONLY Source of Power.  Christ is our Life (Col 3:4).  Apart from Him, one is SPIRITUALLY dead.  And the spiritually dead CANNOT DO any spiritual act like HEARING His voice and COMING to Him by faith.  The fact that people can HEAR and COME proves that they are ALREADY spiritually alive.