Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said: According to Samie, we HAVE the power/ability to refuse, but we do NOT HAVE the ability to accept/open the door/believe. How can we have one but not have the other? Why would God allow us the ability to SAY NO, and not allow us the ability to SAY YES? "PLUGGED IN" to Christ, we have the ability to be "ON". But we can also be "OFF". But when NOT "PLUGGED IN", we're always "OFF". Problem with some preachers, they teach people can be "ON" even when NOT "PLUGGED IN". Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 56 minutes ago, JoeMo said: By their personal CHOICE to answer the invitation to "plug in". How did they have the power to ANSWER prior to their being 'PLUGGED IN"? Quote
JoeMo Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Samie said: How did they have the power to ANSWER prior to their being 'PLUGGED IN"? SIGH!!!..... For about the 1,000th time, it's called FREE WILL!!! It's something we are all born with. All men are born with free wills; but that doesn't mean that we are all born saved. We are all born with the ability to be saved, but that doesn't mean we are all born already saved. How is it that we can choose to reject the power to overcome; but we cant choose to accept the same power? Your arguments make no sense! 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 58 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: So - we "come to God through" Christ, by already being IN Christ. That means EVERY human being who ever/will ever live comes to God through Christ. THAT doesn't make sense. NAS John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Just now, JoeMo said: SIGH!!!..... For about the 1,000th time, it's called FREE WILL!!! It's something we are all born with. All men are born with free wills; but that doesn't mean that we are all born saved. We are all born with the ability to be saved, but that doesn't mean we are all born already saved. How is it that we can choose to reject the power to overcome; but we cant choose to accept the same power? Your arguments make no sense! You and Rachel think you make sense by CLAIMING people have the power to EXERCISE free will prior to their being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ - the ONLY Source of POWER. Think again, folks. Quote
JoeMo Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Show me one scripture that says we have to be plugged into Christ before we have a free will; or where only those written in the book of life have a free will. "With man it is impossible but with God everything is possible" doesn't count. Think again, Samie. We have a free will to be plugged in or NOT plugged in - period. End of discussion. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, JoeMo said: Show me one scripture that says we have to be plugged into Christ before we have a free will; or where only those written in the book of life have a free will. You may start with John 15:4, 5 and Phil 4:13. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, JoeMo said: Think again, Samie. We have a free will to be plugged in or NOT plugged in - period. No problem with having FREE WILL. The problem is whether we have the power to exercise it prior to our being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ - the ONLY Source of Power. You insist we have. I say, No, we don't have any power to exercise free will PRIOR to our being "PLUGGED IN" to Him. Quote
JoeMo Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 "Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:4-5) "I can do all this through him who gives me strength. (Phil 4:13) I see nothing in these verses that says we have no free will unless we are plugged into Christ. Following your logic, once anyone willfully rejects Christ (i.e., "unplugs"), they have no more free will; and are incapable of choosing to return to Christ. This is a false teaching. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, JoeMo said: "Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:4-5) "I can do all this through him who gives me strength. (Phil 4:13) I see nothing in these verses that says we have no free will unless we are plugged into Christ. Following your logic, once anyone willfully rejects Christ (i.e., "unplugs"), they have no more free will; and are incapable of choosing to return to Christ. This is a false teaching. The issue is NOT whether people have free will or they have none. It is whether they have the power to exercise it PRIOR to their being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ. You with Rachel are teaching people have that power to exercise free will PRIOR to our being "PLUGGED IN" to Him. I say we don't have any power to exercise free will PRIOR to our being "PLUGGED IN" to Him. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 "PLUGGED IN" to Christ is Rachel's analogy. And I agree with her in that analogy. She was saying Christ is the source of the divine "current", hence the necessity of being "PLUGGED IN" to Him. Unless "PLUGGED IN", we cannot have access to that divine "current" which is the power to do spiritual things, of which, exercising FREE WILL is one. If JoeMo and Rachel are now saying that people have that power to exercise free will PRIOR to their being "PLUGGED IN" to Him, then Rachel is going against her own analogy. Quote
JoeMo Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 28 minutes ago, Samie said: The issue is NOT whether people have free will or they have none. It is whether they have the power to exercise it PRIOR to their being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ. That makes no sense. If we are unable exercise our free will, it's the same as not having one to begin with. Again - following your analogy, if I choose to "unplug" from Christ, I cannot once again exercise my free will to come back to Christ; and I am eternally doomed. This is a false teaching. Whether or not we are "plugged in", Christ stands at the door and knocks. We have the power to answer the door whether or not we are plugged in. I refuse to believe that if I choose to unplug that I am doomed to burn because by unplugging, I lose my power to exercise my now-useless free will. If I ever sin willfully, I basically "unplug" because in that instance, I am not overcoming evil with good. I just chose evil and unplugged. By your way of thinking, I am eternally doomed because I "unplugged"; and now have no free will to choose to plug back in. This is a message of condemnation for all men; because all have willfully sinned at one time or another. I choose to believe John's epistle that basically says " If we [choose to] claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we [choose to] confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we [choose to] claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10) Bracketed words are mine; based on my understanding. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 Just now, JoeMo said: That makes no sense. If we are unable exercise our free will, it's the same as not having one to begin with. No, for me, it's one thing to have free will and another thing to exercise it. It's one thing to have a bike and another thing to ride your bike. You cannot go biking without any bike to ride on. It's one thing to have faith, and another thing to exercise faith by believing. Quote
JoeMo Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, Samie said: It's one thing to have a bike and another thing to ride your bike. You cannot go biking without any bike to ride on. Thank you - you are proving my point. "You cannot go biking without any bike to ride on" is equivalent to me saying "you can't exercise your free will if you don't have a free will to exercise". 12 minutes ago, Samie said: It's one thing to have faith, and another thing to exercise faith by believing. If one is not exercising his/her faith, it's the same as not having faith. If I truly have faith, I will follow it. By your logic, if I "unplug" by willfully sinning (even once in my life), my faith is gone because I have willfully "unplugged"; and can no longer respond in faith. This is a message of condemnation. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 9 minutes ago, JoeMo said: Thank you - you are proving my point. "You cannot go biking without any bike to ride on" is equivalent to me saying "you can't exercise your free will if you don't have a free will to exercise". If one is not exercising his/her faith, it's the same as not having faith. If I truly have faith, I will follow it. By your logic, if I "unplug" by willfully sinning (even once in my life), my faith is gone because I have willfully "unplugged"; and can no longer respond in faith. This is a message of condemnation. You cannot unplug, brother. You're but a man. John 10:29 . . . no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Unless Christ Himself UNPLUGS you from His Body by blotting your name from the book of life, you remain "PLUGGED IN" to Him. Good news is, judgment to blot out or not occurs only AFTER a person dies. There's hope while alive. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 27 minutes ago, JoeMo said: This is a message of condemnation. A message of condemnation: People are born NOT in Christ. How so? If one is NOT in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5). If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6). If he cannot believe, then as Rachel and JoeMo teach, he cannot be in Christ. Hence, it NECESSARILY follows that IF one is born NOT in Christ, he can NEVER be in Christ. Quote
Samie Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 The Good News is: People are born in Christ. How so? Because when the emergency occurred in Eden, God immediately implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world by sending heaven's physician, and saved Adam through Christ, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). That gracious, saving act of God was manifested and revealed in the life, death, resurrection and high priestly ministry of Jesus (2 Tim 1:8-10). With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ. Born in Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4) and strength (Phil 4:13), we have His Power to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). When He comes again to reward all men according to their works (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals; all blotted out will suffer God's wrath and finally have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). also see Rom 2:5 -11. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted May 1, 2017 Posted May 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Samie said: No problem with having FREE WILL. The problem is whether we have the power to exercise it prior to our being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ - the ONLY Source of Power. You insist we have. I say, No, we don't have any power to exercise free will PRIOR to our being "PLUGGED IN" to Him. IF we don't have to power "to exercise it" then we don't HAVE IT. If I am paralyzed and can't reach the light switch, then the lights stay off - whether or not my house is connected to the grid. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Samie said: "PLUGGED IN" to Christ is Rachel's analogy. And I agree with her in that analogy. She was saying Christ is the source of the divine "current", hence the necessity of being "PLUGGED IN" to Him. Unless "PLUGGED IN", we cannot have access to that divine "current" which is the power to do spiritual things, of which, exercising FREE WILL is one. If JoeMo and Rachel are now saying that people have that power to exercise free will PRIOR to their being "PLUGGED IN" to Him, then Rachel is going against her own analogy. NKJ John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." Jesus spoke this to the Scribes and Pharisees. They were unwilling to come (to plug in). So - apparently they HAD the WILL either to come or not to come. And they HAD the will BEFORE they either came or refused to come. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 Samie, I have clarified for myself, my own understanding of several passages of Scripture, because of dialoging in this thread. So thank you. But now I think we're stuck - at least for purposes of this discussion. You say we have to be "in Christ" in order for us to "come to" Christ. That just doesn't make sense. You say we have FREE WILL, but cannot exercise it unless we are already "in Christ". That makes no sense. What good is FREE WILL that one "cannot exercise" ? That means it's NOT FREE WILL. You say we are all "in the body of Christ" - when only "the bride" can share her husband's body. Husband and wife become "one flesh. And "the church" IS "the body of Christ" in the NT, just as Israel was the LORD's "wife" in the OT. The "church" is NOT all of humanity. Neither was/is "Israel". You say we begin our lives as "branches" attached to "the vine" (or "Olive Tree") - when Scripture clearly says we start out as "wild branches" and must be "grafted in". You say that all humanity was "saved" the same day Adam sinned, but "saved" doesn't MEAN they will receive eternal life (unless they do good WORKS). That's confusing. LifeHiscost and JoeMo 2 Quote 8thdaypriest
Samie Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: You say we have to be "in Christ" in order for us to "come to" Christ. Please don't put words into my mouth, Rachel. 5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: NKJ John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." Jesus spoke this to the Scribes and Pharisees. They were unwilling to come (to plug in). So - apparently they HAD the WILL either to come or not to come. And they HAD the will BEFORE they either came or refused to come. Yes, they had the will. I'm not saying they didn't have it. Being born in Christ, we, including them, were all born with it; born with the power to exercise it. Quote
Samie Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: You say we have FREE WILL, but cannot exercise it unless we are already "in Christ". That makes no sense. Your words, Rachel, NOT mine. Mine are: Born in Christ, we all are born with free will. And being in Him, we have His POWER to do things one of which is the exercise of free will. Your problem is you insist people have the power to EXERCISE free will DESPITE their being NOT "PLUGGED IN" to Christ yet - the ONLY Source of POWER. Quote
Samie Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 Rachel, Yours in black, my response in blue: 5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: What good is FREE WILL that one "cannot exercise" ? That means it's NOT FREE WILL. Agree. You say we are all "in the body of Christ" - when only "the bride" can share her husband's body. Husband and wife become "one flesh. And "the church" IS "the body of Christ" in the NT, just as Israel was the LORD's "wife" in the OT. The "church" is NOT all of humanity. Neither was/is "Israel". The Church is the Body of Christ (Col 1:18) and is composed of all for whom Christ died (Acts 20:28). Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14, 15), hence "all" compose the Church. The "all" Christ died for is "every man" (Heb 2:9), therefore "every man" is in the Body of Christ which is the Church. That is UNTIL Christ Himself severes one from His Body by blotting his name out from the book of life. You say we begin our lives as "branches" attached to "the vine" (or "Olive Tree") - when Scripture clearly says we start out as "wild branches" and must be "grafted in". I said we begin life already in Christ, the Vine; we, the branches. It was you who used the Olive Tree analogy, not me. You say that all humanity was "saved" the same day Adam sinned, but "saved" doesn't MEAN they will receive eternal life (unless they do good WORKS). That's confusing. I don't think so. Being born in Christ, we All were empowered to overcome evil with good. But only overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life. Quote
Samie Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 2 hours ago, jackson said: He would get the power from the same source that Paul got the power to become in Christ before he was in Christ. Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. They both got it by exercising the faith given them at birth. Now you please tell me how you think Paul became in Christ after being out of Christ.; orr why Jesus would knock for entrance on all our hearts if He were already in us; or why He asks us to come to Him if we are already in Him Or for that matter , how did Andronicus and Junia become in Christ. But , for now just explain how Paul became in Christ. Just like you and me, and Andronicus and Junia, and everybody else for that matter, Paul was born ALREADY in Christ. That's how Paul became in Christ. Any other questions related to the issue, jackson? I'll be glad to address them directly, even if you seem to be in the habit of running away from mine. Quote
Samie Posted May 2, 2017 Posted May 2, 2017 2 hours ago, jackson said: He would get the power from the same source that Paul got the power to become in Christ before he was in Christ. At what point in Paul's life do you think was he NOT in Christ? Quote
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