Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

What the IMMORTAL has done can NEVER by any mortal be UNDONE.

What if the mortal doesn't overcome?  It sure seems to me that overcoming is more of a work than accepting.

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

What if the mortal doesn't overcome?  It sure seems to me that overcoming is more of a work than accepting.

Still, it is NOT the mortal, but Christ Himself, Who REMOVES the mortal from being part of His Body by BLOTTING his name from the book of life.

[JoeMo]

OR ... the mortal's name was never entered into the book of life because he never accepted  to Christ.

Hypothetical question - in your opinion, are the names of members of ISIS or Al-Qaeda who actively and gleefully seek, torture, kill and rape Christians, Jews, and other Muslims and never repent written in the book of life?  How about pedophiles? (I know you're not God; so anything you say is strictly your opinion.)

[Samie]

38 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

OR ... the mortal's name was never entered into the book of life because he never accepted  to Christ.

Hypothetical question - in your opinion, are the names of members of ISIS or Al-Qaeda who actively and gleefully seek, torture, kill and rape Christians, Jews, and other Muslims and never repent written in the book of life?  How about pedophiles? (I know you're not God; so anything you say is strictly your opinion.)

In my opinion, by God's grace, Adam & Eve and all their descendants were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.  Scriptures record that it was God Who CHOSE & PREDESTINATED people as adopted children in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world (see Eph 1:4, 5).  I believe that the record of those so chosen and predestined is none other but the book of life of the Lamb.

God, being IMPARTIAL (Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9), predestined each one of us - Adam & Eve's descendants - and wrote down all our names in the book of life.  When someone dies an overcomer in God's sight, his name remains, otherwise, Christ blots his name from it.  If only good people were written in the book of life then there is no blotting out of names from it. However, Scriptures speak of blotting out of names, hence both the good and the bad were written in the book of life.

[Samie]

10 hours ago, jackson said:

Samie, please stay with scripture. Repentance is a gift and not a work of man as you suggest.

So, who repents for you?

[Samie]

While waiting for jackson's response as to who repents for him, it is quite clear from Scriptures that people are commanded to repent.

In the Old Testament, here's God's command:

KJV Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

The same command God NOW wants all men everywhere to do:

KJV Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The same command Jesus issued in the gospel that He preached:

Mark 1:14-15   14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,  15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again:

Matthew 24:14   14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Repentance is so important for man to do that Jesus said:  ". . .  except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. " (Luke 13:3, 5).  But here comes jackson, teaching that repentance is NOT for man to do:

10 hours ago, jackson said:

Samie, please stay with scripture. Repentance is a gift and not a work of man as you suggest.

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/19/2017 at 0:28 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie's favorite verse: 

2 Corinthians 5:14 "For the love of Christ urges us on, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. 15 And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them." (NRS)

I agree that Christ "died for all" - for every human being who has ever/ or will ever live.

"Therefore all have died".  The ENTIRE human race DIED.  Which means they were DEAD.   "Dead in trespasses and sins."   Guilty of the death of Christ. 

The question is:  Were ALL resurrected to eternal life?  Answer: No! 

Only the Spirit gives life. 

Only those people who open the door to the Spirit can receive LIFE.  Only they can "live again". 

The verse says "so that those who live".   "Those who live" are people who have believed, and have opened the door to Christ. 

Unless we do that - "open the door" - we stay DEAD.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."  (NKJ)

Clearly - men can refuse to "come" to Christ - therefore they do not "have life".  They remain DEAD.

Jesus won the right to forgive those who came "through" Him.   But the forgiveness/justification is not accomplished fact UNTIL those persons actually believe in Him, and open their heart to His spirit. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/19/2017 at 3:17 AM, Samie said:

Would you care to explain your take on the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son, vis-a-vis my take on it? Thanks.

 

God the Father regards mankind as "lost" from Him.  Mankind (just 2 individuals) was in a relationship with God their Creator.   Any part of mankind (descendants of the original pair) was therefore "lost" from God when Adam/Eve rebelled. 

If Levi could pay tithes in the loins of Abraham, then descendants of Adam/Eve could be "lost" in the loins of Adam. 

At the gate of Eden, the LORD promised to send a deliverer.   Adam/Eve did not have the deliverance on that day.  They had the promise. 

And along with Adam/Eve, all their descendants had the promise.  The question is whether the deliverance became reality on the day that Jesus died.  I say no.  We still have the promise.  We are much closer to the deliverance now.  But we will not REALIZE the complete and perfect deliverance (from death and from the presence of Evil) until DOMINION is taken from Satan and given to Christ.  On that same day, Jesus will come to deliver us from death and from the presence of Evil.  

In the parable, the son knew that he was far from home.  I feel that way - though I have never been in Heaven. 

The coin didn't "know" and didn't care.  The sheep knew that something was missing, but wasn't sure what that was.  (Sheep are notoriously stupid.)

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, Samie said:

 If only good people were written in the book of life then there is no blotting out of names from it. However, Scriptures speak of blotting out of names, hence both the good and the bad were written in the book of life.

I disagree.  Those who once believed CAN "depart from the faith".

1 Timothy 4:1  “. . . some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits”

Hebrews 3:12-14  “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;  but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.  For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence [trust] steadfast to the end,”

Having once believed, we must hold that faith to the end.  If NOT, then we will be blotted from the Book of Life.

Colossians 1:21  “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled . . . if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard”

1 John 1:7  “If we walk in the light .... the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”  

1 John 2:24  “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.”

Romans 11:17-20,21,22 [Speaking to a Gentile convert, Paul said]  “. . .some of the branches were broken off, and you . . . were grafted in. . .  Do not be haughty but fear, for if God did not spare the natural branches He may not spare you either.”  “. . .  toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness.  Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

 

The principle here is that our expressed BELIEF/faith in Christ must be tested, so that all may see (by our "works") the genuine vs only lip service.  This is why we are "judged by our works" - not by our prayers, or by our confession of faith.  Unless one is about to be burned at the stake for that confession.  In that case, it would constitute a good "work". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, Samie said:

So, who repents for you?

YOU repent - because the spirit of Christ is flowing through your heart enabling that repentance.  

YOU could not do it without HIM.  But you CAN refuse to do it.  Just as you can resist His spirit.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

8 hours ago, Samie said:

While waiting for jackson's response as to who repents for him, it is quite clear from Scriptures that people are commanded to repent.

In the Old Testament, here's God's command:

KJV Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

The same command God NOW wants all men everywhere to do:

KJV Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The same command Jesus issued in the gospel that He preached:

Mark 1:14-15   14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,  15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again:

Matthew 24:14   14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Repentance is so important for man to do that Jesus said:  ". . .  except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. " (Luke 13:3, 5).  But here comes jackson, teaching that repentance is NOT for man to do:

 

I believe repentance is a WORK of man, ENABLED by God. 

"REPENT ye and BELIEVE the gospel."  Mark 1:15

Those who refuse to believe - also refuse to repent.    BOTH are enabled by the spirit of God.  The spirit of God is THE GIFT which comes to all mankind BECAUSE of Christ's victory over Satan. 

During the OT period, the spirit came to men because of God's promise - that His Son would come to be tested unto death. 

The GIFT is available for ALL MEN.  But not every man will receive the spirit.  Most will RESIST the gift. 

That being said, men still need some information - to show them WHO to believe in, and WHO to obey.  

[8thdaypriest]

45 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

YOU repent - because the spirit of Christ is flowing through your heart enabling that repentance.  

YOU could not do it without HIM.  But you CAN refuse to do it.  Just as you can resist His spirit.  

 

"I CAN DO all things through Christ who strengthens me."

I - do do it.   I can believe.  I can repent.   But I can DO IT, because He strengthens me.   And I am NOT forgiven until I DO it.   My name is NOT written into the Book of Eternal Life UNTIL- I DO IT. 

Christ came to HELP me do it.  He won the right to HELP me do it.  He won the right to forgive me WHEN I do it.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

As scripture says, it is God who gives repentance. But it is you that has to open your heart to it. If you do, a Godly sorrow will take possession of you and you will repent. It is you who repent, but it is God that makes it possible. Hence, repentance  is not a work of man . . .

But you said it is NOT the work of man. Confused?

When I said, only those in Christ can REPENT, you said:

4 hours ago, jackson said:

Hence, repentance  is not a work of man as you so erroneously implied in your earlier posts.

If one is in Christ, he is part of His Body, and the strength the body part uses is that of the OWNER of the body.  It appears that both you and Rachel both believe, as I do, that repentance is NOT possible without the ENABLING of God. 

While I believe that only those ALREADY in Christ can repent, you and Rachel contend that while NOT in Christ, that is, while NOT part of His Body, the person can repent, can believe, etc. And yet you both claim that it is Christ's strength the penitent uses, a claim BLATANTLY against Christ's own words that APART from Him man can do NOTHING.  Amazingly, you both referred to those words of the Savior:

4 hours ago, jackson said:

Without Christ you can do nothing, but through Christ you can do anything He asks of you.

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

YOU could not do it without HIM. 

 

[Samie]

11 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

"I CAN DO all things through Christ who strengthens me."

I - do do it.   I can believe.  I can repent.   But I can DO IT, because He strengthens me.   And I am NOT forgiven until I DO it.   My name is NOT written into the Book of Eternal Life UNTIL- I DO IT. 

Christ came to HELP me do it.  He won the right to HELP me do it.  He won the right to forgive me WHEN I do it.

Sorry to say, but that, to me, is teaching a works-based salvation, for UNLESS man puts into the basket his share of the deal, he cannot benefit from it.

To be grace-based, only those ALREADY in Christ are ABLE to repent.  Man's being in Christ is all God's work FOR man, NOT an iota of human participation. We all are born ALREADY in Christ because God saved Adam that day he sinned, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

[Gregory Matthews]

Biblical doctrines are often complex and composed of a number of parts, all of which are valid.  People often focus on one part and ignore other aspects.

Some people believe that the following brings the various parts together on this issue:

*  On the cross, with the death and resurrection of Christ all of humanity were reconciled with God and provided with salvation.

*  The issue today is for all people to make an individual choice as to where they want to spend eternity--either an eternity with God, or an eternal separation outside and apart form God.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity with God will understand that part that they had in their separation and they will as a part of their choice to spend eternity with God repent of their rebellion.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity separated from God will not repent.  God will accept their choice and not force them into an eternity that they do not chose.

*  As God is the source of all life and humanity does not have an inherent immortality, their choice  to separate for eternity from God, will also separate them from the power that keeps them alive and they will go out of existence, eternally.

 

[Samie]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God the Father regards mankind as "lost" from Him.  Mankind (just 2 individuals) was in a relationship with God their Creator.   Any part of mankind (descendants of the original pair) was therefore "lost" from God when Adam/Eve rebelled. 

If Levi could pay tithes in the loins of Abraham, then descendants of Adam/Eve could be "lost" in the loins of Adam. 

At the gate of Eden, the LORD promised to send a deliverer.   Adam/Eve did not have the deliverance on that day.  They had the promise. 

And along with Adam/Eve, all their descendants had the promise.  The question is whether the deliverance became reality on the day that Jesus died.  I say no.  We still have the promise.  We are much closer to the deliverance now.  But we will not REALIZE the complete and perfect deliverance (from death and from the presence of Evil) until DOMINION is taken from Satan and given to Christ.  On that same day, Jesus will come to deliver us from death and from the presence of Evil.  

In the parable, the son knew that he was far from home.  I feel that way - though I have never been in Heaven. 

The coin didn't "know" and didn't care.  The sheep knew that something was missing, but wasn't sure what that was.  (Sheep are notoriously stupid.)

As I understand it, Rachel is basically saying the Father simply folded His hands as He watched His children - Adam & Eve - fall into and drown in sin.  Even an earthly father when he sees his child fall into the water, will do everything even at the peril of his own life to save his child from drowning. 

Quite difficult for me to imagine our God of agape love is how Rachel tries to depict Him.  Sorry but, for me, her way of depicting our heavenly Father falls short of why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Samie]

18 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Biblical doctrines are often complex and composed of a number of parts, all of which are valid.  People often focus on one part and ignore other aspects.

Some people believe that the following brings the various parts together on this issue:

*  On the cross, with the death and resurrection of Christ all of humanity were reconciled with God and provided with salvation.

*  The issue today is for all people to make an individual choice as to where they want to spend eternity--either an eternity with God, or an eternal separation outside and apart form God.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity with God will understand that part that they had in their separation and they will as a part of their choice to spend eternity with God repent of their rebellion.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity separated from God will not repent.  God will accept their choice and not force them into an eternity that they do not chose.

*  As God is the source of all life and humanity does not have an inherent immortality, their choice  to separate for eternity from God, will also separate them from the power that keeps them alive and they will go out of existence, eternally.

If I were to use the above statements in asterisk (*) to explain my position, I will substitute the statements I bolded above, with the following:

* The cross is the manifestation or revelation of the plan of salvation God devised before the foundation of the world and FIRST implemented when the emergency occurred in Eden, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity with God will understand that being in Christ, they will as a part of their choice to spend eternity with God repent of their rebellion.

All others remain as is.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Sorry to say, but that, to me, is teaching a works-based salvation, for UNLESS man puts into the basket his share of the deal, he cannot benefit from it.

To be grace-based, only those ALREADY in Christ are ABLE to repent.  Man's being in Christ is all God's work FOR man, NOT an iota of human participation. We all are born ALREADY in Christ because God saved Adam that day he sinned, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

IMO Samie,  you are just wrong.  Humans MUST "participate" in order to be "saved".  It takes 2 to make a relationship.  Humans must respond to God's grace, in order to be "saved".  They do not begin life in a "saved" condition, and remain "saved" until/unless they fail to DO good works.  That is just NOT what Christ taught, and NOT what Paul taught. 

I just read a verse this morning as part of my devotional. 

"If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."  John 10:9 

These words do NOT say the one who "enters" is already saved, BEFORE he enters.  NO.  He has to "enter" before being "saved". 

There would be no reason to teach the Gospel if everyone is already "saved".  Just leave folks in ignorance, and that way they will automatically be "saved" and in the kingdom. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Biblical doctrines are often complex and composed of a number of parts, all of which are valid.  People often focus on one part and ignore other aspects.

Some people believe that the following brings the various parts together on this issue:

*  On the cross, with the death and resurrection of Christ all of humanity were reconciled with God and provided with salvation.

*  The issue today is for all people to make an individual choice as to where they want to spend eternity--either an eternity with God, or an eternal separation outside and apart form God.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity with God will understand that part that they had in their separation and they will as a part of their choice to spend eternity with God repent of their rebellion.

*  Those who chose to spend eternity separated from God will not repent.  God will accept their choice and not force them into an eternity that they do not chose.

*  As God is the source of all life and humanity does not have an inherent immortality, their choice  to separate for eternity from God, will also separate them from the power that keeps them alive and they will go out of existence, eternally.

 

So Gregory,

We all draw LIFE from God.  The spirit of God, flowing through all creation, keeps living beings ALIVE.  Do you see God's continuing provision of LIFE as "salvation"? 

If so, then Satan and his angels were also "provided with salvation".  I don't believe that.  And such a definition of "salvation" would mean we loose "salvation" as we grow old and die. 

I think this all depends upon one's definition of "saved" and "salvation". 

If it means a temporary continuation of "life" (in order to allow a choice for-or-against God), I don't see THAT as "salvation". 

My understanding of man's present state:

God is the judge.  His created human race of beings have committed crimes of rebellion.  The sentence of death has been pronounced against them.

Rather than execute the sentence of eternal death, God commutes the sentence to probation.  IF - during the probationary period, individual humans show a desire for change, and show actual change of behavior (committing fewer and fewer acts of rebellion against God, and fewer acts of selfishness which harm other beings) THEN the sentence of eternal death, along with the record of their crimes, is expunged from the record.

Jesus Christ died to provide us with the probationary period, during which He could seek to help us, and hopefully bring us to full restoration - with our records clean.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

As I understand it, Rachel is basically saying the Father simply folded His hands as He watched His children - Adam & Eve - fall into and drown in sin.  Even an earthly father when he sees his child fall into the water, will do everything even at the peril of his own life to save his child from drowning. 

Quite difficult for me to imagine our God of agape love is how Rachel tries to depict Him.  Sorry but, for me, her way of depicting our heavenly Father falls short of why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God the Father was NOT separated from Jesus, back at the "foundation of the world".  The Father and His Son were not "separated" until that moment when Jesus hung on the cross. 

Yes - they knew it was coming - that moment of separation.  They knew it from the moment Adam ate the fruit.  But it did not happen until the cross. 

Where the text says that Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8), it does NOT SAY that Jesus was slain at the foundation.  He was not actually "slain" (killed) until Calvary. 

The chain of events - which would end in His DEATH - began with the creation of mankind.  But it ENDED at the cross. 

God promised a "Lamb".  God's promise is sure.  But a PROMISE is not the same as the FULFILLMENT, as anyone still living in this dark world will attest. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

As I understand it, Rachel is basically saying the Father simply folded His hands as He watched His children - Adam & Eve - fall into and drown in sin.  Even an earthly father when he sees his child fall into the water, will do everything even at the peril of his own life to save his child from drowning. 

Quite difficult for me to imagine our God of agape love is how Rachel tries to depict Him.  Sorry but, for me, her way of depicting our heavenly Father falls short of why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's called FREE WILL Samie.  God does not control minds. 

God warned Adam/Eve about the Evil One.  He told them what the consequences would be - slow death.   But God would NOT stop them, if they chose to sin.  And after they chose to steal the fruit, Jesus promised that a redeemer would come to crush the Serpent.  After they were expelled from the Garden, He protected them from complete control by the Evil One, so long as they tried to serve Him.  He could do no more, until He recovers dominion of this world from Satan.  And that does not happen until the end of this age.  

In your view Samie, God should not have allowed the Evil One access - even at the Tree of Knowledge of Evil.  What "loving Father" would allow a drug pushing convict into the back yard with his kids? 

The fact that God did allow Adam/Eve to be TESTED, goes to my belief that humans must CHOOSE, and then their choice must be TESTED.  Their outward/observable behavior must testify to their internal CHOICE.  Which is why we will be judged by our "works".  

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Sorry to say, but that, to me, is teaching a works-based salvation, for UNLESS man puts into the basket his share of the deal, he cannot benefit from it.

To be grace-based, only those ALREADY in Christ are ABLE to repent.  Man's being in Christ is all God's work FOR man, NOT an iota of human participation. We all are born ALREADY in Christ because God saved Adam that day he sinned, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

Hmmmm.  Then why would Paul write:

Romans 16:7  [Paul writing] “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

        Here Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were “in Christ” before Paul was.  Sounds like an EVENT which happens in time.  Sure doesn't sound like every descendant of Adam was born already "in Christ".

We are baptized INTO Christ.  That is our "new" birth.  Only when we are "born again" are we "in Christ". 

    Romans 6:3-7  “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.  For if we have been united together [with Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [united with Him] in the likeness of His resurrection.  For he who has died [by baptism] has been freed from sin.”

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

IMO Samie,  you are just wrong.  Humans MUST "participate" in order to be "saved".  It takes 2 to make a relationship.  Humans must respond to God's grace, in order to be "saved".  They do not begin life in a "saved" condition, and remain "saved" until/unless they fail to DO good works.  That is just NOT what Christ taught, and NOT what Paul taught. 

I just read a verse this morning as part of my devotional. 

"If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."  John 10:9 

These words do NOT say the one who "enters" is already saved, BEFORE he enters.  NO.  He has to "enter" before being "saved". 

There would be no reason to teach the Gospel if everyone is already "saved".  Just leave folks in ignorance, and that way they will automatically be "saved" and in the kingdom. 

There are three tenses of salvation.  "will be saved" is future tense, and ONLY those whom God judges as overcomers are entitled to it. 

But in the past tense, we all were saved by grace, when the Father saved Adam the same day he sinned, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  With Adam in Christ we his descendants are all born in Christ.  This gracious, saving act of God was manifested in the life, death, resurrection, and ministry of our Savior & Lord as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary where He now continually justifies us by not imputing against us sins we now commit, thus saving us by grace under the present tense of salvation.

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, Samie said:

Sorry to say, but that, to me, is teaching a works-based salvation,

Why is the smallest thing to you - like accepting our salvation and repenting of evil we have done - such a "work"?  Yet you claim we must overcome evil with good.  I don't even know what that means.  Does that mean striving for sinlessness?  To me, that's a HUGE work!  Is it simply "accepting Christ"; and waiting in laborless passivity to die so we can go to heaven?  That's laziness.  We must choose who and what we will serve - God and goodness or the devil and evil.  Or is "choosing" a work?  Was Joshua seeking works-based salvation when he said:

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15)

Is "Serving the Lord" a "work"?  When Jesus said "Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23)  was He talking about some effortless walk in the park (or is effortlessly walking a work as well)?   From what happened to Jesus on the cross, that sounds like a HUGE work.

I am not saying that we can trust and obey our way into heaven.  But I do think we can distrust and disobey our way out of heaven!

If someone gives me a 5 front-row tickets to the super bowl on the 50 yard line  with all transportation, meals and 5-star hotel accommodations included, I still must choose to show up to accept and use my gift.  If choosing to do any "work" at all disqualifies me from obtaining the gift,  I'd never get to the game.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Why is the smallest to you - like accepting our salvation and repenting of evil we have done - such a "work"?  Yet you claim we must overcome evil with good.  I don't even know what that means.  Does that mean striving for sinlessness?  To me, that's a HUGE work!  Is it simply "accepting Christ"; and waiting in laborless pthing assivity to die so we can go to heaven?  That's laziness.  We must choose who and what we will serve - God and goodness or the devil and evil.  Or is "choosing" a work?  Was Joshua seeking works-based salvation when he said:

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15)

Is "Serving the Lord" a "work"?  When Jesus said "Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23)  was He talking about some effortless walk in the park (or is effortlessly walking a work as well)?   From what happened to Jesus on the cross, that sounds like a HUGE work.

I am not saying that we can trust and obey our way into heaven.  But I do think we can distrust and disobey our way out of heaven!

We're all saying the same thing, I guess.

The only difference between me and other discussants in this issue is this: while I believe we all were born in Christ because God saved Adam through Christ the same day he sinned, many others believe we all are born in sin which to me would be depicting our God of agape love just like a father who just folded his hands when he saw his child who does not know how to swim JUMP into the water and instead of saving him, he left him to drown because saving him would be interfering with his FREEWILL

With my view, we begin life ALREADY enabled to do SOMETHING, being in Christ.  With the vew of others, we begin life NOT in Christ yet able to do SOMETHING to be in Him.