Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

30 minutes ago, Samie said:

3.      Repentance is made possible by the gift of Godly sorrow and cannot be accomplished without God’s grace

Agree.  Repentance occurs in the Present Tense of Salvation.  It is our answer to God's call for all people to repent, that is, overcome evil with good. Ezek 18:30; Mark 1:14, 15; Acts 17:30.

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

Don't take it too personal, brother.  Please understand that English is not my first language.  I could be using words and phrases that for you with English as your first language are offensive, but of which I am not aware of.

Thank you for saying that Samie.

[Samie]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

Thank you for saying that Samie.

You are welcome, Rachel.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

Samie, read the following verses carefully and tell me how those branches broken off the vine because of unbelief (lack of faith) can be grafted in again if they renew their faith (no longer in unbelief()

jackson,

Remember that the issue we are discussing is the WHEN of being in Christ.  You say it is when a person believes: believe first before one can be attached.  I say we are born ALREADY in Christ - attached first before one can believe.

You used Rom 11:17-23.  Those verses speak of some branches being broken off because they did not believe, not all branches.  Hence some were NOT broken off because they believed.  BREAKING OFF simply means those branches start out ATTACHED, PLUGGED IN to Christ.  Both those that believed and those that did not were ALREADY attached PRIOR to their believing or non-believing.  Hence, the verses you used tells us this sequence: attached first before one can either believe or not believe.  And that is my position, not yours.

Therefore, the verses you quoted VALIDATED my position, not yours.

 

[JoeMo]

I know I said I was done; but I had a thought today.  I am willing to admit that all humans are born with a measure of (or a capacity for) faith.  Samie claims that this comes from Christ; so that we can believe in Him. About 2.2 billion out of 7.5 billion people have embraced that faith and directed it towards Yahweh.  5.3 billion have taken that spark of faith and directed it elsewhere - whether it be Allah (aka satan), Vishnu, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, self, ancestral spirits, fetishes, the world, etc.  So the measure of faith allegedly "given" all by Christ has been directed elsewhere by 2/3 of the planet's population.  Doesn't sound like that God-given measure of faith is being directed at God very effectively.

Could it be that this measure of faith is just part of human DNA - an instinctive desire to fill the supernatural void in everyone's heart?  No different than a fish's instinctive drive to swim, or a bird's instinctive drive to fly, or the instinct of self preservation, or sexual satisfaction?  Yes - God may give everyone a measure of faith as an instinct (like the instinct to breathe); but He does not dictate where that faith is directed.  Like Joshua said:

" But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15)

Joshua CHOSE to worship Yahweh.  God gave that CHOICE to all.  Those who have never heard of Jesus or Yahweh chose other things to fill that void in their hearts.

Samie, please don't ask me for specific scriptures to back up these thoughts.  I gave the base scripture that gave me this idea.  That's all it is - an idea, not a dogma.

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Samie said:

Why do you get mad when someone tells you, you're wrong, brother?  I won't. 

You also used words which to me appeared offensive.  Why would I get mad? Why would I take it personally?  This is a discussion forum and that happens.  I think I am doing my best to just address issues and not attack nor judge people.  For me, to say that what I am posting is right and what you are posting is wrong is just normal in any discussion.  For me it's not personal attack against someone but simply a point of emphasis to parry objections because when I say your position is wrong I try my best to back it up with RELEVANT Bible verses.

I guess Jesus didn't get mad in similar situations.

Samie,

You might try using "in my opinion" (IMO) before your statements concerning your view, or "I believe".  That will tell others that you are not claiming infallibility. 

We are all searching for better understanding, and for better words to convey that understanding to others.  I do not believe anyone here has a malicious intent - to deceive. 

Jesus could actually claim infallibility.  I don't think we should. 

And Joe,

You embarrass me with your praise.  I'm not an academic.  I've never studied Greek and know only a few songs of Hebrew.  I just use dictionaries and concordances like other ordinary folk.  I felt called to teach, and led to put my studies up online.  (10,000+ visitors last month to prophecyviewpoint.com)   I pray constantly for His help, to make the teachings understandable for ordinary folk.  I dislike pedestals.  The air is too thin up there. 

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Samie said:

For the nth time, jackson, instead of simply refusing, please explain how:

1.  One born NOT in Christ cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

 A SEED produces fruit.  Right?  

I see the "measure of faith" given to every person, like a "seed" - of faith.    It can grow up to produce fruit, IF it is watered (by the spirit) and IF it is not choked by weeds, and IF it is not pull up by someone who thought it was a weed. 

Samie,

Your statement "faith is needed to believe" is not a good use of English.  A person who believes HAS faith.  You don't NEED one (faith) in order to HAVE the other (belief). 

"I have faith in you"  and "I believe in you"   MEAN the same thing - in English. 

BEFORE one believes, one does NOT HAVE faith.  And BEFORE one has faith, one does NOT believe. 

BEFORE we experience Christ, we just feel hungry for something - we know not what.  We feel an emptiness.  (This is because we were created to be indwelt.  We cannot feel at peace and satisfied without this indwelling.) 

I think this emptiness is the "measure" given to everyone.   This emptiness "tells us" there must be something to "fill" that space.

 
 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

Your statement "faith is needed to believe" is not a good use of English.  A person who believes HAS faith.  You don't NEED one (faith) in order to HAVE the other (belief). 

"I have faith in you"  and "I believe in you"   MEAN the same thing - in English. 

BEFORE one believes, one does NOT HAVE faith.  And BEFORE one has faith, one does NOT believe. 

KJV Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

^BGT Hebrews 11:6 cwri.j de. pi,stewj avdu,naton euvaresth/sai\ pisteu/sai ga.r dei/ to.n proserco,menon tw/| qew/| o[ti e;stin kai. toi/j evkzhtou/sin auvto.n misqapodo,thj gi,netaiÅ

pi,stewj noun genitive feminine singular common from pi,stij

pisteu/sai verb infinitive aorist active from pisteu,w

Unlike in English, the Greek pi,stij is used to form the verb  pisteu,w.  But there is no "faithing" in English.  "Bike and Biking" parallel the Greek "pi,stij and  pisteu,w", where the noun forms the root of the verb.  Hence "BEFORE one believes, one does NOT HAVE faith." does not apply in Greek.  Just like one cannot go "biking" without a "bike".

[Samie]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

But you didn't explain how a detached branch can have faith to rid itself of unbelief and be reattached.

I did it on purpose because the issue that needs resolving is the WHEN of our being in Christ, NOT the WHEN of our being cut off and reattached.   As the branches were ALREADY attached PRIOR to their believing or non-believing so with us. We were already attached, PLUGGED IN to Christ PRIOR to our believing or non-believing.  Therefore, the verses you used to validate your position, validated mine instead.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

Let us look at it this way:

To be in Christ is no small thing. It is not something over which we have no choice.

I choose to look at it another way.

I was born ALREADY a member of our family.  But I can choose to live a way of life NOT in accord with my family.

So with our being members of the family of God.  We were born ALREADY members of the Family of God.  All by God's grace. Not an iota of human participation like "believe first to become a member". 

God commands all members of His Family to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.  We can choose to either live in accord with what God wants or not.  Those whom God judges as non-overcomers, Christ will remove from being members of God's family by blotting their names from the book of life.

[JoeMo]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

We were born ALREADY members of the Family of God.

That seems to clash with David's proclamations in Psalms:

"Surely I was sinful at birth,  sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5).

" Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies" (Ps. 58:3).

[Samie]

Just now, JoeMo said:

That seems to clash with David's proclamations in Psalms:

"Surely I was sinful at birth,  sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5).

" Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies" (Ps. 58:3).

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5   Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

KJV Hebrews 10:14   For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Therefore, conceived in sin but sanctified in the womb.  And those whom God sanctified, he made perfect forever, how? Through Christ.

KJV Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

All grace. Not an iota of human participation.

[Samie]

15 minutes ago, jackson said:

Your answer to this question is important, because your whole doctrine rests on the premise that one must be “in Christ” to do anything..

My whole doctrine rests on what Christ Himself said: "APART from Me, you can do NOTHING."

You find it difficult to believe in what Christ Himself said, jackson? Why?  What prevents you from believing Him? Doctrines of men?

[Samie]

Just now, jackson said:

You still haven't answered. i have endeavored to answer your many questions.

No, you haven't, jackson.  Until now.

Quote

 

Again, for the nth time, jackson, instead of simply refusing, EXPLAIN your position:

1.  One born NOT in Christ cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

So, can you address the above Scriptures that CONTRADICT your concocted doctrine? 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

I did it on purpose because the issue that needs resolving is the WHEN of our being in Christ, NOT the WHEN of our being cut off and reattached.   As the branches were ALREADY attached PRIOR to their believing or non-believing so with us. We were already attached, PLUGGED IN to Christ PRIOR to our believing or non-believing.  Therefore, the verses you used to validate your position, validated mine instead.

I thought Paul said (of the Gentiles) that they WERE "wild olive branches".  That would mean they were NOT ATTACHED to the Olive Tree that is Israel (prevails with God) - the one nourished by the "holy root" (Christ Jesus).

  Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, (NKJ)

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

My whole doctrine rests on what Christ Himself said: "APART from Me, you can do NOTHING."

You find it difficult to believe in what Christ Himself said, jackson? Why?  What prevents you from believing Him? Doctrines of men?

For the nth time Samie.  We DO NOT do it "without" Him.  He is the one who SENDS the evidence.  He is the one who came to show us the Father's love.  He is the one who created us with intelligence, and the ability to choose. 

You Samie, want Him to DO everything FOR us - including choosing FOR us and believing FOR us.  But that's NOT how it works.  There IS something for us to DO.  We must respond - choose - believe - surrender. 

When a man proposes marriage, he CANNOT say "Yes" FOR his intended bride.  She must say, "Yes". 

[Samie]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

For the nth time Samie.  We DO NOT do it "without" Him.

You only do it APART from Him, that is, you claim you have power to do SOMETHING while NOT PLUGGED IN to Him - the ONLY Source of POWER.

[8thdaypriest]

Paul - speaking about the UNKNOWN GOD:

 Acts 17:28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (NKJ)

The word translated as "in" - "in Him" - is translated 37 times in the NKJ as "through".  We know that the Son of God acted as the agent of His Father, in creation.  He carried out the Father's plan. 

God the Father created "through" His Son.  It is "through" God's Son that we "live" or exist.   We are the "offspring" of God, in the sense that He created us. 

I'm fine with saying that we are "born through Christ".  We were "born" the first time THROUGH Christ.  He created us.  And we are "born again" THROUGH the working of Christ.

The Son of God was and is the agent of His Father - in creation, in mediation, and in redemption.

The same concept can be applied to our "good works".  It is only "through Christ" that we can do good works, or bear fruit. 

But that does NOT translate to our names being written in the Book for Eternal Life, before we even exist, before we are physically born, before we understand anything about God much less believe in His begotten Son as LORD.  

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But that does NOT translate to our names being written in the Book for Eternal Life, before we even exist, before we are physically born, before we understand anything about God much less believe in His begotten Son as LORD.  

To be in Christ, is to be NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be Saved.  And to be Saved is to be written in the Book of Life. Hence, to be born ALREADY in Christ is to be born ALREADY written in the Book of Life.

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, Samie said:

You only do it APART from Him, that is, you claim you have power to do SOMETHING while NOT PLUGGED IN to Him - the ONLY Source of POWER.

Samie,

You equate "plugged in to Him" with "written in the Book for Eternal Life" and "saved" and "justified".   I don't!

We live and move and have our being IN/THROUGH Him.  We also believe THROUGH Him.   We are "born again" THROUGH Him.  That does not mean every person presently, physically alive has also been "born again" - "of the spirit".   

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (NKJ)

You Samie tell us that every person on earth was "born of the Spirit" - "born again". 

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (NKJ)

If every person alive is "born in Christ" and therefore has "the Spirit" IN him (the power source), then how could Paul have described "the natural man"?  There would BE no such "natural man".  

[8thdaypriest]

8 minutes ago, Samie said:

To be in Christ, is to be NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be Saved.  And to be Saved is to be written in the Book of Life. Hence, to be born ALREADY in Christ is to be born ALREADY written in the Book of Life.

Once AGAIN Samie:

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (NKJ)

If a person is walking according to the flesh - following after fleshly desires (without confession or repentance) - then OBVIOUSLY, that person is NOT "in Christ Jesus". 

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (NKJ)

To be "in Christ Jesus" MEANS to be set apart ("sanctified") from "the world" or in the case of Israel, from "the nations".   It means to belong to those who "call on the name of Jesus" as LORD. 

[Samie]

13 minutes ago, jackson said:

i told you in a previous post that because a measure of faith is given at birth and that does not preclude it from flourishing as a fruit of the spirit when one chooses to be in Christ.

The truth of the matter is that you have no answer to how a broken off branch can be grafted back in because you have locked yourself into the idea that Christ can't help you unless you are in Him. Paul clearly refutes your notion and you are left without an answer.

i didn't mean to back you into a corner like this, but here we are now.

So you thought you have me in the corner.  You make me smile, brother.

Again:

Quote

 

Again, for the nth time, jackson, instead of simply refusing, EXPLAIN your position:

1.  One born NOT in Christ cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. John 15:4, 5

2.  If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  Gal 5:22.

3.  If he cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  Heb 11:6

4.  If he cannot believe, then according to what you and others are saying, he cannot be in Christ.

It NECESSARILY follows from your teaching that one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ.

So, can you address the above Scriptures that CONTRADICT your concocted doctrine? 

 

 

[Samie]

39 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

You equate "plugged in to Him" with "written in the Book for Eternal Life" and "saved" and "justified".   I don't!

We live and move and have our being IN/THROUGH Him.  We also believe THROUGH Him.   We are "born again" THROUGH Him.  That does not mean every person presently, physically alive has also been "born again" - "of the spirit".   

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (NKJ)

You Samie tell us that every person on earth was "born of the Spirit" - "born again". 

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (NKJ)

If every person alive is "born in Christ" and therefore has "the Spirit" IN him (the power source), then how could Paul have described "the natural man"?  There would BE no such "natural man".  

There is such "natural man". We all are.  We both have the "natural" and "spiritual" in us.  We let the one or the other reign in our exercise of FREE WILL.  If we allow evil to overcome us, then we let the "natural" man in us to take reign.  But if we overcome evil with good, then we let the "spiritual" take reign.  Overcomers are those who REFUSE to let the "natural" take reign.  God NEVER overrides man's FREE WILL.

[Samie]

46 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Once AGAIN Samie:

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (NKJ)

If a person is walking according to the flesh - following after fleshly desires (without confession or repentance) - then OBVIOUSLY, that person is NOT "in Christ Jesus".

Disagree.  He is "in Christ Jesus".  He just REFUSES to walk according to the Spirit. His name will be blotted out from the Book of Life.

46 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (NKJ)

To be "in Christ Jesus" MEANS to be set apart ("sanctified") from "the world" or in the case of Israel, from "the nations".   It means to belong to those who "call on the name of Jesus" as LORD. 

 Yes, we all belong to the Family of God.  But many will be EXPELLED from it for not overcoming evil with good.  Their names will Christ Himself blot out from the Book of Life.

 

[Samie]

Happy Sabbath, folks.  See you later.  Sabbath School is about to begin.