The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled

[phkrause]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:51 PM, stinsonmarri said:

However, you need to realize that SDA accept the trinity just like the Catholic.

I know that! I was saying to Trevor that I didn't believe that Constantine started the believe in the Trinity!!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again timtofly and phkrause,

10 hours ago, timtofly said:

How do you justify the last 1991 years will be the same as the next 1000?

When Jesus returns from heaven, then he will bring times of refreshing and restoration, so the next 1000 years will be a great improvement on the present conditions.

Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

One of these prophets is Daniel, and he states that God will replace the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God Daniel 2:35,44. Another two prophets are Isaiah and Zechariah, and they teach that after Jesus returns and stands upon the Mount of Olives, then the nations will no longer learn war, but they will go up to Jerusalem to worship and be taught God's ways Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14.

10 hours ago, timtofly said:

The point of the Millennial reign on David's throne for 1000 years is the promises given in Daniel 9 at the conclusion of the 70 weeks.

The 70 weeks relates to the First Advent. Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem at the Second Advent. Although I have a different perspective on the 2300 years, the chart on page 200 of the SDA book on Daniel and Revelation shows that the 70 weeks relates to the First Advent. I think you have adopted some outside concept, popular among some Pentecostal Churches.

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

know that! I was saying to Trevor that I didn't believe that Constantine started the believe in the Trinity!!

Yes, I agree. It was mainly and gradually developed from Greek philosophy and Platoism. What is surprising is that SDAs do not accept immortal souls, yet they accept the Trinity. They certainly have adopted some of the ideas from Greek philosophy. I do not think that we are allowed to turn this thread into a Trinity thread.

Kind regards Trevor

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 6/28/2021 at 1:08 AM, timtofly said:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

 

The soon to happen Second Coming will finish the last of the 70th week.  Christ and the angels gathering the final harvest.   All of Adam's flesh and blood, will be harvested one way or the other.  This is the only way to remove sin, and finish the transgression. 

 

The only way for a soul to come out at the end is through this resurrection. 

 

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

I do not know what this person believe. That is not the SDA faith given to Edison. I believe in 23 hundred Days Prophecy but nothing like that all. believe in that in 1844 on the exact day of Atonement. It is what this day was for, and that is why it is still Holy. It is when the Judgment begin when THE LAMB took the Book and open the seals. The sealing is placing all who are sealed in the Book of Life. The first two who have been judged, and the white horse was when they were in Eden when the earth was created pure! I know you think it is weird. But they were sealed and place in the Book of Life: First, all the righteous dead which covers all the seals but the six. That cover us today and the 144,000 are sealed and the great multitude are seal. They were witness by the 144,000. That is the end of time. There will be no more judging until 1,000 years. The saints will judge and then YAHSHUA will execute the finally Judgment. Those righteous will stay righteous all those who are wicked he will also bring there reward with HIM! There is so much more but weird things you will not be able to understand.

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

13 hours ago, phkrause said:

I know that! I was saying to Trevor that I didn't believe that Constantine started the believe in the Trinity!!

If I offended you I am sorry. I did not realize that! So, I didn't know or I would not have made the comment. Hope you forgive.

Blessings!

[timtofly]

13 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The 70 weeks relates to the First Advent. Jesus will sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem at the Second Advent. Although I have a different perspective on the 2300 years, the chart on page 200 of the SDA book on Daniel and Revelation shows that the 70 weeks relates to the First Advent. I think you have adopted some outside concept, popular among some Pentecostal Churches.

There are many who claim the 70th week has not even started.  There is still a 7 year period ahead.  Many claim the 7 years were all accomplished in the first century. 

 

I am not middle ground.  I claim the 70th week is the ministry of Jesus Christ.  The Revelation of Christ on earth.  The first half was from the baptism of Jesus until the ascension.  The last half is the Lamb come to gather the final harvest.  It is not a solid 3.5 years.  The Olivet Discourse is all about the final harvest, after the Second Coming.  But those days will be shortened.  The time for the church to keep on gathering the harvest will be extended.

 

The last half of the 70th week is when the angels are gathering the souls for harvest.  The church is not on the earth at that time, but removed.

 

The 70th week was split to allow the fulness of the Gentiles into the harvest.

 

It could be viewed that the NT church is still the revealed body of Christ.  It has just been a very long 70th week. 1991 years have been inserted into this time frame.

[phkrause]

5 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

If I offended you I am sorry. I did not realize that! So, I didn't know or I would not have made the comment. Hope you forgive.

Blessings!

No problem I was not offended. We're good Stinsonmarri ?

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, timtofly said:

There are many who claim the 70th week has not even started.  There is still a 7 year period ahead.  Many claim the 7 years were all accomplished in the first century. 

 

I am not middle ground.  I claim the 70th week is the ministry of Jesus Christ.  The Revelation of Christ on earth.  The first half was from the baptism of Jesus until the ascension.  The last half is the Lamb come to gather the final harvest.  It is not a solid 3.5 years.  The Olivet Discourse is all about the final harvest, after the Second Coming.  But those days will be shortened.  The time for the church to keep on gathering the harvest will be extended.

 

The last half of the 70th week is when the angels are gathering the souls for harvest.  The church is not on the earth at that time, but removed.

 

The 70th week was split to allow the fulness of the Gentiles into the harvest.

 

It could be viewed that the NT church is still the revealed body of Christ.  It has just been a very long 70th week. 1991 years have been inserted into this time frame.

Spiritual thing are spiritually discern the Bible said. You sound just like the Pharisees during the time of YAHSHUA. You would think we read today and see that they believed this same views. YAHSHUA will destroy this earth and make a New Heaven and a New Earth. You are so stuck on this king David Messiah things like the Pharisees  and Scribes. The Rabbinic Judaic religion of today believes that as well. They do not believe that YAHSHUA IS THE MESSIAH! You all believe that the Jews are Semitic they are not they are from Japheth. The original Hebrews are gone they are no more. Deut Chapter 28 They themselves said YAHSHUA'S BLOOD be on them and their children and they open the curse in Deut Chapter 28 and their seed was destroyed! 

Blessings and Prayer is Needed!

[stinsonmarri]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:13 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Stinsonmarri, 

My impression is that the normal SDA view is that they believe that the fourth metal is Rome and ALSO the fourth beast is Rome. Possibly there may be other SDA speculations, and judging from a few of Greg's magazine articles some speculations are published and tolerated. On the other hand your view may be personal, or a group, or a faction. I suggest that you need to discuss your view on Daniel 7 and settle this idea with the SDAs.

The Apostle John was in exile, and under the authority of the fourth Empire Rome. Thus "to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass" relates to future events from the time of John, and this would be during the ascendancy of Rome, the fourth metal and the fourth beast.

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor: We have the SDA Commentaries and they provide more than one view that SDA believe. Many of the second view is where I stand. The mainstream wants to be accepted by the world church organization. I don't! I wanted obey the Bible and the Bible only!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again timtofly,

10 hours ago, timtofly said:

I claim the 70th week is the ministry of Jesus Christ.  The Revelation of Christ on earth.  The first half was from the baptism of Jesus until the ascension.  The last half is the Lamb come to gather the final harvest.  It is not a solid 3.5 years. 

I cannot accept the splitting of the final week. The book SDAs believe 27 Fundamental Doctrines has a reasonably correct depiction on page 323, except I believe that a significant fulfillment of the 2300 years is from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when Jerusalem was recaptured by the Jews. One movement or series that endorses your view is the Left Behind Series. Possibly that is where your view is derived. 

5 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

We have the SDA Commentaries and they provide more than one view that SDA believe. Many of the second view is where I stand.

I doubt that you reflect these views as you seem to be paddling your own canoe on many subjects. Please check if the commentaries state that the fourth beast is the Roman Empire, which you seemed to question. The Prophetic Code Correspondence Series claims that both the fourth metal and the fourth beast are the Roman Empire.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again timtofly,

I cannot accept the splitting of the final week. The book SDAs believe 27 Fundamental Doctrines has a reasonably correct depiction on page 323, except I believe that a significant fulfillment of the 2300 years is from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when Jerusalem was recaptured by the Jews. One movement or series that endorses your view is the Left Behind Series. Possibly that is where your view is derived. 

I doubt that you reflect these views as you seem to be paddling your own canoe on many subjects. Please check if the commentaries state that the fourth beast is the Roman Empire, which you seemed to question. The Prophetic Code Correspondence Series claims that both the fourth metal and the fourth beast are the Roman Empire.

Kind regards Trevor

I do not have a canoe. This is what I said: "Many of the second view is where I stand." I did not say what views they were so please get the facts correct. Secondly, I stated very clearly I stand on what took place in the book Early Writings, that's what you need to read. They kept the Day of Atonement and did not understand the 7th Month Movement fully. I do understand the Judgement like they did and we do today which started in 1844. So, like you said you do not know a lot about SDA, you truly don't. So you need to ride your own canoe theory.

Thank You!

PS: There are Seven Volumes of Books in the SDA Commentary

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

On 6/28/2021 at 3:43 AM, stinsonmarri said:

It is understood that the iron is Rome, but nowhere here and in Rev 1:1-3 does it mention Rome at all. Dan Chapter 7 only mention Rome in the teeth of the fourth beast.

 

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

There are Seven Volumes of Books in the SDA Commentary

Please check your commentaries to see if they teach that the fourth beast is Rome.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

22 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

 

Please check your commentaries to see if they teach that the fourth beast is Rome.

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor you need to check Vol. 5 which has Daniel to see that it does says the fourth beast is Rome. I already know that it does. I do not need to check, that is on you. I do not believe it is Rome but that Rome is a part of the beast and so are all 3 of the other beasts: Babylon, Persia and Greece. Daniel and John says so.

Please Read It for yourself, thank you!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

27 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Trevor you need to check Vol. 5 which has Daniel to see that it does says the fourth beast is Rome. I already know that it does. I do not need to check, that is on you. I do not believe it is Rome but that Rome

I do not have access to those commentaries, but I am happy that they accept that the fourth beast is Rome. John received the prophecies during the period when Rome was in its ascendancy, but Rome started to decline soon after his time. Even Gibbon seems to start at the time of John and the title of his history is The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

In a previous post I mentioned what I consider to be the various time periods of the Seals, the Trumpets and the Vials. Another way of expressing these Continuous Historic events is that the progression of these symbols depict the progression of Divine judgements against the Roman Empire and its successor, the Roman Catholic Church. The Seals, chapter 6, are interpreted as representing the decline of the Roman Empire, the Trumpets, chapters 8-9, as the fall of Rome in the West, and then in the East, and the Vials, chapter 16, represent the judgements against the Roman Catholic Church. I believe that we are in the 6th Vial period, shortly before the return of Jesus to establish his Kingdom and Throne in Jerusalem as depicted in Isaiah 2:1-5.

Kind regards Trevor

[timtofly]

On 6/30/2021 at 12:14 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again timtofly,

On 6/29/2021 at 1:32 PM, timtofly said:

I claim the 70th week is the ministry of Jesus Christ.  The Revelation of Christ on earth.  The first half was from the baptism of Jesus until the ascension.  The last half is the Lamb come to gather the final harvest.  It is not a solid 3.5 years. 

I cannot accept the splitting of the final week. The book SDAs believe 27 Fundamental Doctrines has a reasonably correct depiction on page 323, except I believe that a significant fulfillment of the 2300 years is from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when Jerusalem was recaptured by the Jews. One movement or series that endorses your view is the Left Behind Series. Possibly that is where your view is derived.

I do not get the claim from man's commentary nor eschatology.   It is right there in Daniel 9.

 

  "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

 

Messiah the Prince is the 70th week.   Messiah was cut off after 3.5 years.  The second half will be the Prince on the earth at the Second Coming.   There is no historical record of Jesus Christ as the Prince in the first century. 

The 7th Trumpet is the completion of the 70 weeks.  Revelation 10:5-7

 

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

The 7th sounding finishes up the 70 weeks.  Only then can those items in Daniel 9:24 be accomplished on Israel on the earth. 

 

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again timtofly, 

13 hours ago, timtofly said:

There is no historical record of Jesus Christ as the Prince in the first century. 

Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 3:15 (KJV): And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Daniel 8 and 9 are interesting in regard to the symbols used and the subject in general. While in Daniel 7 the Medo-Persians are depicted as a bear and the Greeks as a leopard, in Daniel 8 they are depicted as a ram and a goat, sacrificial animals.

Also Daniel 8 speaks specifically about the Sanctuary or the Temple:

Daniel 8:9–14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Jesus alludes to this prophecy in the Mount Olivet prophecy:

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Thus the treading down of Jerusalem would be a long period, and the 2300 years would start in BC 334-333 and end in Ad 1967 when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem. These events relate to the Holy Place, the Sanctuary, Jerusalaem where the Temple was built.

Daniel 9 is more concerned with the Most Holy Place, and Jesus is equated or rather is the True Most Holy Place.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV): Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

19 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again timtofly, 

Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 3:15 (KJV): And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Daniel 8 and 9 are interesting in regard to the symbols used and the subject in general. While in Daniel 7 the Medo-Persians are depicted as a bear and the Greeks as a leopard, in Daniel 8 they are depicted as a ram and a goat, sacrificial animals.

Also Daniel 8 speaks specifically about the Sanctuary or the Temple:

Daniel 8:9–14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Jesus alludes to this prophecy in the Mount Olivet prophecy:

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Thus the treading down of Jerusalem would be a long period, and the 2300 years would start in BC 334-333 and end in Ad 1967 when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem. These events relate to the Holy Place, the Sanctuary, Jerusalaem where the Temple was built.

Daniel 9 is more concerned with the Most Holy Place, and Jesus is equated or rather is the True Most Holy Place.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV): Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor: What's your point? You provided the Scriptures now explain them. Notice Gabriel said: "thy holy city," why did he not said YAHWEH'S? When Gabriel talk to Daniel in Dan 12:1 again the angel said: "THE GREAT PRINCE which standeth for the children of thy people," HE did stand for the children of Daniel's people. The angel did not make them YAHWEH'S people at this time, why? Just quoting Scriptures without actually studying them means nothing. Then you claim what is presented weird and you then presents a canoe, which has nothing to do with understanding! 

Oh! It was quite long too!

Blessings and Happy Sabbath!

[timtofly]

22 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again timtofly, 

Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 3:15 (KJV): And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Daniel 8 and 9 are interesting in regard to the symbols used and the subject in general. While in Daniel 7 the Medo-Persians are depicted as a bear and the Greeks as a leopard, in Daniel 8 they are depicted as a ram and a goat, sacrificial animals.

Also Daniel 8 speaks specifically about the Sanctuary or the Temple:

Daniel 8:9–14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Jesus alludes to this prophecy in the Mount Olivet prophecy:

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Thus the treading down of Jerusalem would be a long period, and the 2300 years would start in BC 334-333 and end in Ad 1967 when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem. These events relate to the Holy Place, the Sanctuary, Jerusalaem where the Temple was built.

Daniel 9 is more concerned with the Most Holy Place, and Jesus is equated or rather is the True Most Holy Place.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV): Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Kind regards Trevor

We are still stuck at the point, the Lord Jesus Christ was not confirmed Prince to His own people for any period of time associated with His 3.5 years as Messiah.   Yes, He will be Prince forever, that is no doubt.  Yet no practical way now, as He was cut off, and the fulness of the Gentiles has been under way for 1991 years.

 

What is wrong with Jesus having another 3.5 years to finish what was started in the first century as Prince this time?  Going real big, with 144k disciples instead of 12.  12,000 disciples from each tribe.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again timtofly, 

14 minutes ago, timtofly said:

We are still stuck at the point, the Lord Jesus Christ was not confirmed Prince to His own people for any period of time associated with His 3.5 years as Messiah.   Yes, He will be Prince forever, that is no doubt.  Yet no practical way now, as He was cut off, and the fulness of the Gentiles has been under way for 1991 years.

Exactly where does Daniel 9 state this.

14 minutes ago, timtofly said:

What is wrong with Jesus having another 3.5 years to finish what was started in the first century as Prince this time?  Going real big, with 144k disciples instead of 12.  12,000 disciples from each tribe.

The time periods of the time of the end and the conversion of Israel are not fixed by 3.5 years. The 144,000 is a symbolic number associated with events already fulfilled. The conversion of Israel will be of greater numbers than 144,000. You are still locked into your fanciful Left Behind Series or similar speculations.

Kind regards Trevor

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again timtofly, 

Exactly where does Daniel 9 state this.

The time periods of the time of the end and the conversion of Israel are not fixed by 3.5 years. The 144,000 is a symbolic number associated with events already fulfilled. The conversion of Israel will be of greater numbers than 144,000. You are still locked into your fanciful Left Behind Series or similar speculations.

Kind regards Trevor

Respectfully, this is your opinion based on your study and your doctrinal influences. Some of us who have also studied and are influenced by our own denominational doctrines (like me) feel differently.  That doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right; it just means that we have differing opinions. In my opinion (although not in line with SDA doctrine), the 144,000 will be made up of ethnic Israel; - 12,000 (figurative or literal; doesn't matter to me) from each tribe - and have yet to be sealed by God. But that's just MY opinion.  I don't believe either position is a salvational issue. Now we see partly, as through darkened glass.  When we see Him clearly as He is, we will begin to know all things clearly.  We already know what angels and prophet yearned to delve into in their day.

[timtofly]

On 7/3/2021 at 12:53 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again timtofly, 

Exactly where does Daniel 9 state this.

The time periods of the time of the end and the conversion of Israel are not fixed by 3.5 years. The 144,000 is a symbolic number associated with events already fulfilled. The conversion of Israel will be of greater numbers than 144,000. You are still locked into your fanciful Left Behind Series or similar speculations.

Kind regards Trevor

John does not say the 144k are all there is nor is that representative writing.  You turn that Revelation into some interpretative opinion.  I am just reading what John wrote.  Why do you think John wrote the screen play for the left behind movies?

 

These 144k are disciples, because they go everywhere the Lamb goes.  That is how it worked in the first century with the 12 disciples,  no?

 

I am not comparing my post to some modern day opinions.  I am pointing out the Word of God.

 

It is your opinion that Revelation has been fulfilled and symbolically.   Why is your symbolism any better than when God actually does what is written?

 

Daniel 9 contains the words of Gabriel.  Gabriel never defines the 70th week in numbers.  Gabriel never mentions the 70th week by name like he did for the 7 and the 62.  He does define this:

 

"unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

 

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off"

 

Jesus Christ is defined right along with the 7 and 62.  The first earthly ministry from baptism and calling out the 12 disciples was 3.5 years.  You claim he was always about His Father's business.  That is a true fact.  The 12 were called at a certain time in that ministry.   The 144k will be called out at the same time as the Second Coming. If the 70 weeks are cut off with Jesus Christ leaving as the Messiah, then the 70 weeks can only finish with the Lamb coming as the Prince. 

 

This time instead of 12 being called out to evangelize the world, there are 144k.   Just like the 12 represented the whole church age, the 144k represent the 1000 year reign of Christ.  Do you think the original 12 were literal humans, or just symbolic of the whole NT church?  Why would John write about a literal 144k that are called out at the Second Coming if God is not doing the same thing as the first advent?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo and Timtofly, 

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

In my opinion (although not in line with SDA doctrine), the 144,000 will be made up of ethnic Israel; - 12,000 (figurative or literal; doesn't matter to me) from each tribe - and have yet to be sealed by God.

 

1 hour ago, timtofly said:

John does not say the 144k are all there is nor is that representative writing.  You turn that Revelation into some interpretative opinion.  I am just reading what John wrote.  Why do you think John wrote the screen play for the left behind movies?

Fair enough, but I have a different perspective. When we agree on a few of the basics, then we can examine the more difficult portions. I am more interested in the many clear prophecies in the OT and NT and an overall view of the Book of Revelation, such as the Continuous Historic view of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials.

Kind regards Trevor