The state of the Pharisees

[gina i]

This is hurting my head. Things are being taken out of context. It is so simple to do a study on the fact that not all people will be saved. Yes, God loves us all & we are all His children. Good, bad, ugly, etc.

But we must accept Him. And a lot of people don't. And if people don't accept Him or believe that he gave His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, then no they will not be saved.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"

1 Timothy 2:3-4

^^Keyword = Saved

Of course God wants all to be saved. That doesn't mean we all will be saved. If that was the case, we would all be Christian, believe in the bible & not sin. But we're not. Or it could be the other end of the spectrum & think "Hey, God is going to save us all anyways, so I'm just going to sit on my butt & not do a thing. Because he's going to save all of us."

Yeah, right. I'm not being cynical, it's just the truth.

"Without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God."

Philippians 1:28

^^Keyword = Destroyed.

"My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children."

Hosea 4:6

^^Keyword = Destroyed.

That's how I understand it. I need simple terms & I think most people do. It's easy to take verses out of context.

[David Koot]

It is so simple to do a study on the fact that not all people will be saved.

Absolutely. The Bible speaks very plainly to the fact that not only some, but many will be lost, and burned up in the lake of fire as the final judgment is executed, described in Revelation 20. Jesus, also, spoke plainly about the tares who would be burned in the fire.

There are some, called 'universalists' who teach otherwise. I have carefully studied their teachings. While they do cite some Scriptures, they do not mention other Scriptures which speak to the issue of the destruction of the wicked. For example, they refer to Peter's statement that God is unwilling that any should perish. However, they do not tell you that the Greek word is a statement of desire, rather than a decision by God.

At any rate, yes, the Bible is very clear on that. There is a heaven to win, and a hell to shun. Thank God that heaven is available to all who accept Jesus and follow Him!

[CaseyButler]

The Bible speaks very plainly to the fact that not only some, but many will be lost, and burned up in the lake of fire as the final judgment is executed, described in Revelation 20. Jesus, also, spoke plainly about the tares who would be burned in the fire.

[CaseyButler]

This is hurting my head. Things are being taken out of context.

I am posting the context as much as possible - all are free to check the context.

The Covenant of Promise to mankind is not taken out of context, nor is the Crucifixion of Jesus, who laid down His Life to save the world - not to condemn nor judge it.

The only condemnation going on is from those who claim His name who insist GOD is not capable of converting sinners, who insist that Satan is more powerful than God's Promise.

Here it is again, the Promise of God to all mankind, repeated throughout the Bible by Moses, Jesus, the Apostles, etc...

Hated only by Satan.

God said through Isaiah:

"Tell ye, and bring (them) near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? (who) hath told it from that time? (have) not I the LORD? and (there is) no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; (there is) none beside me.

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I (am) God, and (there is) none else.

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth (in) righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

"Surely, shall (one) say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: (even) to him shall (men) come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

"In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 45:21-25]

And no Satan will stop Him!!

By whose authority are you contradicting God's own Sworn Promise, His very WILL, to save everybody on earth as He has promised from the foundation of the world?

God bless you too, Gina...

Have you ever seen a lamb? What do you suppose the wrath of a lamb is like?

Remember, no matter how much Spiritual language of metaphor Revelation uses, it is still talking about the Jesus you love.

Try to accept His Love for lost sheep, okay?

God's thoughts are higher than man's thoughts. :-)

Casey

[David Koot]

Here Jesus says a "furnace". Isn't he plainly referring to the prophet,

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

The grain survives. The chaff is burned up.

The chaff is that part of us that refuses to believe God's Words in Isaiah and Jesus Words of the New Testament. The part that refuses to love our enemies and obey Jesus' teachings.

The wheat is our uniqueness before Him and the Holy Spirit He gives us.

Unless you grew into wheat having no chaff to remove, which would mean you were born perfect... which would mean...

Never mind. Ask a farmer... :-)

God bless you!

Casey

[David Koot]

The chaff is that part of us that refuses to believe God's Words in Isaiah and Jesus Words of the New Testament. The part that refuses to love our enemies and obey Jesus' teachings.

The wheat is our uniqueness before Him and the Holy Spirit He gives us.

That is not the Scriptural meaning of the words. Nor is there Scriptural warrant for that type of allegory.

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

The chaff is that part of us that refuses to believe God's Words in Isaiah and Jesus Words of the New Testament. The part that refuses to love our enemies and obey Jesus' teachings.

The wheat is our uniqueness before Him and the Holy Spirit He gives us.

That is not the Scriptural meaning of the words. Nor is there Scriptural warrant for that type of allegory.

That is the Spiritual meaning of those words. God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit are my warrant for that type of allegory. Reading the Bible as words of the flesh is unprofitable, it contains Words of the Spirit.

The wonder of our God is worth overcoming our human emotions for. Our egos simply aren't worth it. Our fears and our hatreds are meaningless before His Love for all people of all nations of the earth, who will also stand before Him.

The wonderful variety and uniqueness of every one His creations is worth bowing down for.

His Mercy endureth forever.

A parable from Jesus:

"Therefore is the Kingdom of Heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

"And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

"But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

"The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

"Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

"But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took (him) by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

"And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

"And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

"So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

"Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

"Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

"So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 18:23-35]

God bless you, David. I do know how you feel. But you cannot judge a son of the Living God, for I have already been judged and I stand in the Light before Him.

Answer my question re your authority for questioning God's power as the Pharisees did, please, because yes, that is the issue and subject of this thread.

Casey

[David Koot]

That is the Spiritual meaning of those words. God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit are my warrant for that type of allegory.

[olger]

Hi Casey. I appreciate your spirit, and continue to do so while examining some of your conclusion in light of Scripture.

Universalism is still alive and well in certain quarters. I was asked to write a paper on it in 2000. In that paper I examined Elhanon Winchester's book on Universalism (or final restoration as it was called in Anabaptist circles).

I would make the study available if you desire. It is fairly brief (3-5 pages).

olger

[Robert]

The confusion that is being caused here is because Casey has failed to differeniate between the objective & subjective view of salvation. Here's Jack to explain:

Gospel Issues in Adventism

[Robert]

The Peril of Unbelief

Here's a sample:

"God is faithful regarding His promise. God has promised that He will never let go of us. God has promised our salvation in Christ. Now of course God’s promise cannot be understood outside the context of His love. Where there is love there can be no compulsion so He will never force His promise upon you. Keep that in mind. He will never force. As long as you keep your confidence in God your salvation is guaranteed...."

[olger]

Final Restoration?

An old adage states “A conquering king is best known by his treatment of his captives.” With this in mind, let me ask one thoughtful question—How does our Heavenly Father treat His enemies?

We ask this question humbly, yet honestly—confident that His answer is already given in Scripture. How does God deal with the wicked after they are judged?

Illustration: In September 1985, American Drug Enforcement Agent, Enrique Camarena was kidnapped in Mexico and taken to the home of drug lord Rafael Caro Quintero. A proverbial fly trapped in the web of a spider, Camarena was at the total mercy of this ruthless drug lord.

What followed was a week of the most diabolical torture these drug runners could inflict on their victim. Six horrible days later, Camarena was almost dead...it was too much for his system.

In an apparent act of kindness the drug lords sent two of their men to a nearby village to get a doctor. In short supply, the only one they could find (a gynecologist) was in a nearby village delivering a child. They brought him blindfolded, at gunpoint to Quintero's home. There, he was ordered to make this man (Camarena) well. Through medical care and the use of the scanty medications the doctor had with him, the D.E.A. agent was nursed back to a weak health. The doctor soon learned to his horror that the drug lords wanted Camarena healthy for a reason. "Make this man live so we can torture him longer..” The torture began again with a renewed enthusiasm, but despite the doctor's best efforts Camarena soon died--succumbing to the awful torment. Is this a picture of our God? Heaven help us if it is.

Three Options: Only three possibilities exist for the destiny of the wicked. We will consider each one.

• Eternal torture (or torment)

• Final Restoration or Universal Restoration (same thing)

• Annihilation (destruction)

1. Eternal Torture. By far the most popular belief among professed Christendom is the notion that God will torture the lost forever while at the same time enjoying a pleasurable eternity with the saved. This concept is well expressed in a sermon excerpt by Jonathan Edwards in July, 1741.

Sermon excerpt: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.

O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment.

If you cry out to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favor, that instead of that, he will only tread you under foot….He will not only hate you, but he will have you, in the utmost contempt: no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.”

Here, we see a graphic picture of a God who tortures His victims, and won’t let them die. Hell would thus resound with the groans and curses of the damned throughout the eternal ages. Death & Hell were never to be destroyed. And this exhibition of divine wrath, rolling up like the smoke of a furnace that never goes out, is to be held before the eyes of the redeemed forever! This is the terrifying emphasis. This angry view of our Heavenly Father raises several issues.

• “And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again” (Leviticus 24:19-20). This law of retribution that God gave to His people raises serious implications in this study. In matters of judgement, it is decreed that the punishment must not exceed the crime. How then can God reward a finite life with infinite punishment & torture?

• “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ezekiel 28:15). Just as evil had a complete beginning, it will have a complete end. The perpetuation of misery, so dear to the notion of eternal torment, stands in serious disagreement to the promise of God that He will put a final end to all pain, sorrow and misery. “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful (Revelation 21: 4-5).” Evil was a temporary interruption of perfection. It will have a complete end.

• The portrayal of a God who mercilessly tortures His creatures is the image of Satan himself– projected onto the Almighty Creator of all. “They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?” (Isaiah 14:16-17). Satan is the one who will not release his prisoners. Rightfully called the “father of lies” by Jesus, Satan has tried to project his own character onto the character of God to get people to misunderstand The Father.

• The doctrine of eternal torment rests squarely upon the notion of innate immortality. With all souls thought to be immortal, it becomes necessary to explain their destiny. If it can’t die, then the soul of a lost person must be tormented forever or somehow restored. “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20).

• This teaching has produced an enormous harvest of “Christians” who are driven into the church by the motive of fear. While there is a place in a believer’s life for Godly fear, it cannot be the principal motive of God’s people. A person motivated by fear will quickly forsake God when a bigger fear comes along. The gun at your head, or the knife at your throat is a larger, more imminent fear. But, a person motivated by God’s agape love fears only the possibility of bringing dishonor to the God they love. Like Paul, we can say “The love of Christ constrains me.” God’s people will need something more than fear to see them through the time of trouble yet ahead (Revelation 12:17).

• The doctrine of an eternally burning hell is a Greek idea that moved into the early Christian church, along with the false notion of an "immortal soul." These errors have given rise to the sadistic teaching that God makes the lost to suffer unending conscious torment in hell, which has been such a burden to the Christian conscience and such an unnecessary offense to many seekers of truth.

Down through history, when men came to realize, that, according to this awful teaching the vast majority of the race were thus doomed—including many of their own kin, even children and bosom companions and all infants (original sin)—they became apalled at the unbelieveably cruel conclusions to which this contention led them. Something had to give way. Many then set their energies to find enough evidence to satisfy themselves of the ultimate salvation of all men—thus to escape from the vindictive dogma of eternal torment. For these, the pendulum had swung to the opposite end of the arc. That explains the tremendous resurgence of Universalism. The human mind, with its instincts of common justice & mercy, revolted against such a caricature of God in His alleged fiendishness. And little wonder that many, still under the concept of the immortal soul, turned to the escape offered by Universalism/Final Restoration.

2. Final Restoration. As a boy of 11 years old, I was aware that many people in the church of my fathers discussed this issue. It filled my mind with wonder. On a trip to Indiana with my Uncle Glen Wagoner in 1971, I turned to him in the car and asked “Uncle Glen, do you believe in final restoration?” I honestly wanted to know his thoughts on the subject. After a brief pause, the question was followed by vigorous laughter and a hand on my knee “You’re too young to think about such things, Gerry.” Perhaps I was…perhaps not.

Final restoration insists that every soul created by God would sooner or later be saved and inherit everlasting happiness. It teaches the final destruction of sin and the reconciliation of all souls to God through Jesus Christ. It stressed the triumph of the divine plan for man and the victory of divine love. This was the belief among some of the Anabaptists, such as John Denk. Evidence also exists that that a majority of the Old German Baptist Brethren believed & taught this doctrine during their first 140 years. Over time, this belief would be gradually eroded by the eternal torment school, which virtually took possession of the field. Today, a smaller number of the German Baptist Brethren retain this belief. Elsewhere, the Unitarian Universalist Church is the largest voice for this doctrine.

• The appeal of Final Restoration lies in its description of mercy. If, after all, “Mercy triumphs over judgement,” then this God who was credited with eternal torture takes on a new face. Historically this doctrine was conceived in the minds of men who were long weary of the Greek idea of eternal torture and horrified at it’s implications. It was called Restorationism at first. This doctrine was first developed by Origen (c. 185–c. 254), who wrote in the early centuries of Christianity. Unfortunately, Origen also believed in a form of reincarnation.

• Final Restoration is to be credited for its recognition that the Scriptures do not teach eternal torture. In his book Universal Restoration, Elhanan Winchester rightly observes that the Greek word aionios frequently refers to events that have already ended, as does the Hebrew word for forever – owlam.

• The theory of Universal Restoration (Final Restoration) rests heavily upon a thematic passage found in Isaiah, Romans, and Philippians “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” In this statement of God, it is presumed that every knee bowing, and every tongue confessing is evidence of a universal repentance. Final restoration teaches that Hell is a purifying conflagration that consumes away everything impure, thus leaving all sinners in a state of repentant submission.

• Final Restoration is to be commended for its realization that the molten earth (referred to as the fire of Hell) must eventually die out, paving the way for re-creation of the Earth made new.

• Several Biblical issues must be addressed.

 “By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. “Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee (emphasis mine). All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Ezekiel 28:16-19). Final Restoration neglects numerous Biblical accounts of destruction by Hellfire and fails to account for the many references to ashes as the only remainder of the wicked (Ezekiel 28:18, Malachi 4:1-3; 2 Peter 2:6).

 “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you.” While Final Restoration seems to offer relief to the dilemma of being born on a rebellious planet, it creates a worse dilemma for the believer regarding the trustworthiness of God’s righteousness. Put simply, does He mean what He says in his warnings as well as His blessings? If one overlooks all the Scriptural passages that warn destruction of the wicked, it may well persuade him that God’s righteousness is of lesser weight than His mercy. But, both are met in Christ Jesus who died for all, but Who will return with “flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess:1:5-9). Though our Father bore long with Lucifer, the day came when he was forcefully thrown out of heaven (Revelation 12:9), and the day is likewise coming when he will be burned up. Divine forbearance has a limit.

 The Lamb’s Book of life. The Bible carefully delineates between two classes of people and their relation to the Lamb’s Book of Life. Those with their names written therein are granted by grace, entrance into the New Jerusalem. Those whose names are not written therein are cast into the “second death” (“lake of fire”). These opposing rewards offer no discount in their finality (Revelation 21).

 No second Chance: God extends grace to the living and not to the dead. There is no second chance beyond the veil of this life. The devil would love to convince people that a second chance awaits them, their procrastination rewarded with doom. The Universalist school of thought has, on occasion, given birth to the presumption that life’s decisions are of little consequence in determining our destiny. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live” (Deut. 30:19). Admittedly, there are many sincere believers who believe Final Restoration honestly, and I would not suggest for a moment that each of them looks to the eternal future with indifference. That is not an accurate portrayal. However, it must be admitted that Universal Restoration shares an uncomfortable alliance with the New Age philosophy of ultimate bliss for everybody. Life’s choices are thus relegated to the background. The people in the days of Noah lived in their second chance for 120-years, while the door of His ark was open. The waters sealed their choices, whether in the boat or outside.

3. Annihilation. Sometimes called Conditionalism in theological circles, this third view teaches that the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire at the close of the millennium (Rev 21:8). In other words, they are burned up! This view rests upon the view that man is not naturally immortal. Like Adam, mankind is a candidate for immortality—a special gift from God reserved only for the righteous. Failing to receive this gift, the lost are destroyed by the cleansing of the earth by fire. Annihilation is to be praised for its recognition that God will not molest the lost forever…

Annihilation believes in a lot hotter hell than the other two.

• What is a Soul? According to the Creation account in Genesis 2, a soul is the combination of two things: Dust of the ground, and the Breath of Life “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). Put these two ingredients together, and you are a soul. Let’s illustrate it this way: a light is the combination of a bulb & electricity. Together they are a light. Flip the switch and where does the light go? Without one of it’s ingredients (electricity) the light stops existing. When a person dies, the spark (breath of life) goes back to God, and the dust (body) returns to the ground. The soul ceases to exist. See Ecclesiastes 12:7.

• Can souls die? Of course! You are a soul; I am a soul. “But doesn’t the Bible speak about immortal souls?” No. Nowhere are those words found in the Bible. It does say however “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4). Speaking of the flood, the Bible says that eight souls were saved on the boat (Ark). It says that “Every living soul died in the sea” (Revelation 16:3). We are souls and souls die. Man is mortal. Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16; 1:17).

• Immortality is a gift from God: If man is naturally immortal, why did God bar them from Eden to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Life and living forever? (Gen. 4:22-24). Fortunately, mankind is mortal. But in the day when God brings His rewards to every man, He will give immortality to all who have chosen to follow Him. This mortal will put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53). What a gift! In fact, in Romans, Believers are depicted as “seeking after immortality,” something they do not yet possess (Romans 2:7).

• Are dead people conscious somehow? The first lie recorded in the Bible was told to Eve in the Garden of Eden. “Ye shall not surely die.” Through the centuries, this falsehood is repeated in many ways. During the early stages of the Christian church, the same enemy moved upon God’s people to bring error into their minds. This was accomplished at the hands of mighty Greek influences that moved into the Body of Christ. Through Plato, Socrates, Philo and others, the stage was set. Strongly rejected until the second century, the early church was united in their understanding that death was a sleep of unconsciousness. “For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Sleep is God’s most merciful answer for the dead. With no knowledge of the passage of time, they await their resurrection on that day. If the faithful dead are in heaven already, it makes little sense indeed to have a resurrection, much less a Judgment. But since the unconscious dead are resting until that Day, the rightful focus of redemptive history is on the coming King whose “rewards are with Him to give every man according as his work shall be” (Revelation 22:12). This is the reassuring witness of Scripture. Jesus illustrated His resurrection power by raising Lazarus from the tomb. “These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep” (John11:11-15).

• The Resurrection: As the false notion of an immortal soul moved across the centuries, its strength is measured by the way it weakened the Church’s hope in the resurrection. Though told to “Comfort one another with these words”, the resurrection was largely lost sight of as the dead were presumed to receive their rewards instantly. Belief that the soul is inherently immortal implies that at death one automatically enters the presence of God for their reward. This is contrary to the New Testament depiction of Death as an enemy barring the way to God and overcome only by the resurrection of Jesus and the eschatological gathering of His people at the Second Coming. “Behold I come quickly and my reward is with Me...” Belief in the natural immortality of the soul tends to make one’s religious experience spiritual and self-centered. Belief in “Conditional Immortality” held by most of our forefathers tends to make one’s eschatology center on the resurrection, and emphasizes the physical, historical, and corporate dimensions of the wonderful plan of salvation. The Christian hope is not death, but rather the glorious return of the Good Shepherd!

• The power of Choice: God’s ultimate gift to mankind in the Creation was their power of choice. Notice that this gift also plays a major role in their re-Creation. “Let whosoever will, come and take of the water of life freely.” Throughout each of our lives, our choices and decisions shape our destiny. Again, “Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.” Through the mighty Holy Spirit, the Father works to draw every person into a knowledge of Jesus Christ. A golden ladder connecting Heaven to Earth is placed squarely in the path of every person. That Ladder is Jesus Christ who took all humanity into Himself and paid the price of their redemption. Those who choose to walk around that Ladder daily, ultimately sever the connection their life shares with Heaven—a life preserver rejected by a drowning man… Sadly, this is the choice of many. May God sharpen in each of us a desire to share the Good News with our neighbors, lest they reject so great a salvation.

• The Wicked require destruction: The Bible warns repeatedly that those who reject salvation will be lost. It further indicates that the majority will choose a life apart from Him. The Spirit of God is at work in every country to move the hearts of men. Some may have very little opportunity, but the question remains “How are you responding to my Spirit”? American Indian, African Pygmy, and Chinese worker, all live their lives in contact with the Holy Spirit of God. How are they responding? Their submission to His wooing, may be as simple as giving a cup of water to their thirsty neighbor, or refusing to take part in a violent act someday. The wicked who constantly reject His voice, move their lives into deeper rebellion. This rebellion ultimately begins to hate righteousness. To them, heaven would be an eternal torture. Ungodly people are deeply uncomfortable in the presence of God “Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth?” (Mark 1:24). Thus, destruction is God’s last merciful act to the lost. It brings an end to the rebellion, the hate, the agony of wickedness.

• Sodom & Gomorrah: According to the book of Jude, these twin cities are an example of the judgment to come. “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7). The Word is very clear on this point, God will ultimately destroy evil and all who cling to it. In Philippians we read “For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction.” Instead of perpetuating evil throughout eternity by tormenting the lost forever, our Father brings evil to a full and complete end. His mercy in this annihilation is inescapable. Once completed, He will move His throne to Earth and live forever among His precious people (Revelation 21:3).

Hell will ultimately consume the wicked - "the day that cometh shall burn them up..." (Malachi 4:1-4). This act of God is referred to as His “Strange work” in Isaiah 28:21. The Father does not delight in this destruction but allows it to purify the universe —a cleansing that is final. Once cleansed, the vast Creation beats with one pulse of harmony forever and ever and ever. “Jesus is then, all in all.”

Gerry C. Wagoner

[CaseyButler]

Sorry, but any such impressions or perceptions need to be tested by the written Word, which is the ultimate authority for doctrine and teaching.

[CaseyButler]

Hi Casey. I appreciate your spirit, and continue to do so while examining some of your conclusion in light of Scripture.

Thank you, olger, and I appreciate yours.

Thanks for the offer, but currently I am in love with the Bible and its tapestry of teachings from the prophets and Jesus.

I've never studied universalist writings except God's Word. One day my wife read 1 Corinthians Chapter 3 to me and God's Spirit within me has not stopped growing and rejoicing since.

Therein Paul explains clearly the meaning of his contention that God is using the "foolishness of preaching" to save those who would be saved.

To start with, I was flabbergasted that the verses:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and (that) the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which (temple) ye are." [KJV-Bible: 1 Corinthians 3:16-17]

... had always been read to me out of context by my church, our teachers claiming it was related to the health message and condemned us for what we ate.

Yet read in context Paul is telling us that those foolish preachers working for God who teach unsound doctrine are the ones who risk defiling the temple of God within us.

And regarding the doctrine of those preachers, doctrine that must be taught on the foundation of Christ's sacrifice, Paul says:

"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [KJV-Bible: 1 Corinthians 3:14-15]

Doctrine "burned", errant preachers saved, yet so as "by fire". It is the metaphor of prophetic writings, not literal.

Our God is not going to save only the preachers of misleading doctrine, then literally burn up the church members these preachers misled.

(BTW, don't for a minute believe most Christian evangilists don't understand and count on these words of Paul for their own salvation, as well as the last verse of the book of James.)

Having begun here, I followed Mrs. White's instructions and came to God's Word without any doctrinal baggage whatsoever, and let God and Jesus teach me directly.

I have been led by God through dreams, through words and phrases running through my mind as I awake in the morning. By the Holy Spirit as I read, who "hooks" me by giving me an inner signal when I read something I should follow up.

This from James is so true for all of us today:

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all (men) liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." [KJV-Bible: James 1:5-6]

Try it yourself. Isaiah succincly captured the Plan of Salvation in a few verses.

Pray to God for understanding. Think it through with Him, by what you know of Jesus' life, identifying the various groups mentioned through Jesus' teachings:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments (are) in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

"Let favour be shewed to the wicked, (yet) will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

"LORD, (when) thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: (but) they shall see, and be ashamed for (their) envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.

"LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 26:9-12]

God bless you...

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Hello Gerry,

I would ask you delve back and recall your own wonderful experience of God's Love when you were born of the Spirit.

You experienced the Fire of repentence before God at that time.

Indeed, the Baptism rite itself represents the "destruction" and Spiritual "death" of who we were before God revealed His Mercy to us and blotted out our guilt for what we called "sin".

Also at that time I would speculate that you knew God's Love as never before, and were motivated to share it with others, to show God's Mercy to you to others, to study with others and share what the Holy Spirit revealed to you from the Bible...

But in your church perhaps you were characterized as a "baby Christian". Your unbounded enthusiasm might have embarassed others. Each expression of the Holy Spirit that moved you may have been shushed away by other members, elders, and pastors.

Perhaps you were verbally pigeon-holed by someone saying: "Just wait six months, he'll be back to normal."

I have seen these very things happen to every person whose baptism I have witnessed, their Spirit which Jesus taught was like "the wind" oppressed and guided to the doctrines of men through their own need for fellowship.

We can see clearly today what God says over and over again through the prophets: Captivity and oppression of the Spirit is the historical flaw of all religion.

Does God know what happens to people born of the Spirit through the efforts of "foolish preaching", people who are then forced to swear oaths to the doctrines of men at their very baptism, when Jesus commanded us to swear no oaths?

Yes, God knows.

Return to the Bible, toss out the writings of men you have quoted. They are all making money from those writings - making money from misrepresenting the Word and Promises of God.

Pray for Wisdom according the words of James, reread the Gospels from scratch - listen to Jesus. Through His Life alone can we understand the True Character of God.

Thank you for your post, thank you for your love.

Casey

[David Koot]

Indeed the written Word of God is the carnal man's ultimate authority,

[Ted Oplinger]

Hmmmmm......

Well, Casey, it appears you've dug yourself quite a hole there.

There are a few points we can agree on...

Yes, the Bible does teach that God wants none to perish, and wants all to have eternal life.

Yes, God accepted the sacrifice of His Son as the propitiation of sins for the whole world, not just believers.

But no, the Bible does NOT teach that every human being WILL inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'"

These words cannot be twisted into a parable - they are an explicit declaration from Christ that there will be even apparent Christians who are NOT saved into the kingdom of God. Instead, they are told by Christ to depart from Him - they have no share in His kingdom.

What is more, Revelation 20 declares that in the end, when the sin issue is resolved once and for all, there are two groups of human beings - the saved, of whom the second death has no power over, and the unsaved people outside, whose loyalty and allegiance is to sin and self, following Satan in his last attempt to wage war upon Christ.

Look especially at verses 11-15 in that book:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Compare this to verse 5, same chapter:

5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

I must ask, what is this first resurrection noted? The very same referred to in 1 Corithians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, which occurs at Christ's second coming. Those who live and reign with Christ are the redeemed, the saved.

Then Revelation 20:5 - the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years was up. What is their portion? Let's read verses 7-9...

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

How is Satan released from prison? when the thousand years are over, the rest of the dead come back to life. The devil now has a huge army of people at his command. It is the army of the unsaved. Verse 9 states what happens to this army: it gets devoured by fire. There are no sinners left to bring into the kingdom.

Revelation 20 does back up here, in verses 11-15, to provide the background for this army getting consumed in fire.

It will fulfill the words of the prophet found in Malachi 4:3 -

"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts."

So while it is the stated desire of God that all be saved, God is quite plain that all won't be saved.

So, Casey, I must finally ask...by whose authority do you teach in direct contradiction what God so plainly states is going to be the final lot of mankind - a division into two groups, one saved for all eternity, the other suffering the eternal consequence of death for identifying with sin?

I have seen your line of reasoning before, Casey, in taking the verses you have to paint a picture of God which is not congruent with God's own testimony of Himself.

Yes, our God is a loving, Living God.

Yes, God loves all mankind.

Yes, God desires all to be saved.

and the one you seem to not be able to reach...

Yes, God has declared that not all will be saved.

Yes, the power of the Cross is such that all human beings will be resurrected.

However, Scripture is quite plain that not all will be resurrected at the same time, and that those participating in the second resurrection have NO safeguard from the next, final death - which is NOT covered by the power of the Cross.

Later...

[CaseyButler]

Perhaps you are missing them. Or, perhaps they may be manifested in a way which you do not recognize.

According to scripture, such a manifestation would not be of God. I will pray that all on this board be given the ability to manifest our true feelings clearly.

God bless you and keep you, David.

Casey

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

Indeed the written Word of God is the carnal man's ultimate authority, which is why you cannot answer me explaining by what authority you contradict God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Apostles teachings that all are to be saved.

So...why are you using Scripture to prove your point, Casey? As a carnal man, is that not also your basis of authority?

David's contrast of your statement with Isaiah's is quite on the mark.

Allow for a couple of others...

2 Tim 5:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth."

2 Tim 3:16, 17

" 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

So, I guess one can see why mere mortals place such authority in the written Word...mainly because God instructs us to. Christ learned of the Scriptures as a child the same way.

As for the carnal mind...Romans 8:6,7

"6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so"

So...how can the carnal put their ultimate authority in the Word of God they are not subject to in the first place? Answer: they cannot.

I do think, however, that the servant of God may place their trust in the God who wrote those words, and use them for their intended source for teaching, reproof, and correction.

That, Casey, is the source of authority for my usage of Scripture. What the Living God has taught me is quite in contrast to what your position has been on this thread.

That you are so quick to label those disagreeing with you as "carnal men"...all the while trying to use the same source for your position...well, tells me again the position you have taken is just a bit untenable, and not founded on the Rock.

Quote:

"Thou shalt not kill.

Hmmmm.... looks like a clue here.

We with the English language have muddled that commandment so much, and yet still refuse to state what is really written there. Just like we've muddled up the word, love.

Properly stated, the commandment there is "Thou shalt not murder". While murder is but one way to kill, all killing is not murder...just like eroticism is but one way to love, all love is not expressed this way.

Perhaps I detect a bit of the "God can't kill, because God can't break His own Law, therefore all must be saved" line of reasoning here...in which case I've been there, seen that, and have long ago concluded that it was not a true representation of the Living God I serve.

Getting late...need to go.

[CaseyButler]

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Have you read Jesus' teachings concerning the Will of our Father?

Read Matthew chapters 5 thru 7 for example.

Are the commandments and teachings contained in the Sermon on the Mount kept by anyone at all in our church today?

You are right. This is serious business at this particular point in time.

Jesus said: "If you love me, keep my commandments."

The doctrine of "justification by faith", rather than faith and works, contradicts God's Law, and was invented by theologians long after the Law and Testimony were sealed.

Does that doctrine not encourage the practice of lawlessness before God? Is it not responsible for the situation among Christianity today, where Christians are supporting, even encouraging war in order to fulfill men's errant interpretation of prophecies?

Please let us answer these questions honestly.

The point God has been teaching us is simple, and stated throughout the Bible. For example:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" [KJV-Bible: Romans 3:23]

There is no equivication to this statement. No difference made between saint and sinner.

By condemning others and not showing them the Mercy God has shown us, we saints are only condemning ourselves.

We are the ones not doing the Will of our Father as Jesus taught it. We are the ones teaching lawlessness through doctrines that invalidate God's Law.

God's Mercy TO ALL endures forever.

As hypocrites exposed, organized religions everywhere are on the road to "perdition" and "outer darkness" unless we acknowledge God's Love for even the lowest and most sinful of His creatures.

God is God, He is a Just God that follows His own Law. He is teaching us that we must do the same, and that only HE can show us how.

I hope you are among His Elect, who cry day and night for Jesus Christ to return to save mankind from the suffering we are responsible for allowing to happen.

Jesus promises the time will shortened at the request of the Elect.

"Blessed is He that cometh in the Name of the LORD."

Casey

[CaseyButler]

So...why are you using Scripture to prove your point, Casey? As a carnal man, is that not also your basis of authority?

I am using scripture as Paul, Peter, John, Jude, James, and every other carnal man uses scripture to communicate with other carnal men. Because you refuse to investigate and resolve the Spiritual nature of their words.

What, have you already been changed, Ted? Has God put on you the Immortal Spirit already?

Can you walk on water?

That would be unscriptural, and it would put your life in danger as it put Jesus' life in danger.

Why are you trying to trap me and mischaracterize what I say?

Why do you lie about God's Will and Christ's Will to save the entire earth?

Where is the Mercy that God and Jesus have shown you when your old man died and you were born again the first time?

You can't claim the Bible as your authority. Neither the Spiritual metaphor and symbolism of the prophets, nor of Jesus, nor of the Apostles contradict God's Covenant of Promise.

All of that metaphor is Spiritual language definable from the text itself. From destruction to hell to fire to death.

Then by whose authority do you contradict the plainly Sworn Testimony of God the Savior of all the earth?

God does not tempt man, yet you are claiming He is tempting all sinners unto the death.

I will pray for both you and David, that you can stop contradicting God and humble yourselves before Him as the Creator - and the Savior of all He has created.

God needs people of Love who remember His Mercy to them, and are still interested in His Words of Love in the Bible.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse (your) hands, (ye) sinners; and purify (your) hearts, (ye) double minded.

"Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and (your) joy to heaviness.

"Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of (his) brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?" [KJV-Bible: James 4:7-12]

Again and again:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." [KJV-Bible: James 1:17-18]

Come into the Light! :-)

Casey

[Robert]

Perhaps I detect a bit of the "God can't kill, because God can't break His own Law, therefore all must be saved" line of reasoning here...

My favorite subject next to the gospel!

Look, just because God doesn't kill doesn't mean that those who persistently reject Him will not perish. Sin kills not God.

[Robert]

Why do you lie about God's Will and Christ's Will to save the entire earth?

God has (past tense) saved "the world" - the human race - "all men" - in Jesus Christ. The deed is done! Jesus has done it all. The gift is complete, but like any gift God cannot and will not force it on His children. It is complete gift to be accepted by faith. Anything outside this truth comes from the Father of lies!!!

[Jeanne]

Casey I'm new here, trying to understand what this thread is about. (It is one of the only ones I have a "reply" option for, too!)

Are you trying to suggest that at the end of the world no one will be lost and no one will be burned in fire?

Are you trying to say that all people will be saved in the end one way or another?

And does this apply to the devil and the rebellious angels or only to human beings? Are "death and hell" -- and "the devil that deceived them" still "cast into the lake of fire"? (Quoting from Revelations)

A most interesting discussion! But I am not sure your "teaching" is Bible-based. It is certainly not what the church teaches about these things. Where did you get your ideas from?