The state of the Pharisees

[CaseyButler]

On the last point Maxwell may believe in a Christ's death as a substitute by example, but I think it's accurate to say that he teaches that God can forgive legally by simply forgiving, like a president who pardons a criminal.

Hi Mark,

I'm not familiar with Maxwell. I would agree that God can certainly pardon, for Jesus told us "with God all things are possible", in relation to the salvation of the rich.

But if Mr. Maxwell's opinion requires agreement that there is a Divinely legal basis for sacrifice in the first place... anymore than I could agree on the existence of a Divinely legal "stoning system" where errant teenagers had to be stoned to death, I would have to pass on reading him.

Or is his idea of a "pardon" based simply on God's power?

I quit working in the "world" three years ago. During that time I've studied, and I've stuck to scripture and haven't read much of anyone else's opinions. I've been studying through prayer for wisdom as the Bible and Mrs. White promise will bring us knowledge. It is true.

In the Bible God says sacrifice is an abomination invented by His saints.

Please consider the following statement from Him through the prophets:

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

"For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

"But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

"But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels (and) in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

"Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending (them):

"Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

"Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee." [KJV-Bible: Jeremiah 7:21-27]

God did not command sacrifice, thus there is no Divinely legal basis for its existence.

It's time His saints hearken, in my opinion.

Consider, if we are to summarize the Bible to explain it to someone, would the following not be an accurate description:

"The Bible is the story of God's attempt to give man a Law by which man could live in peace. But every time religious people attempted to enforce this Law without God, they became wicked, ignoring the Mercy of God and not understanding the Spiritual nature of that Law.

"After giving this Law, the rest of the Bible is about the individuals whom God sent to the religious to correct them and lead them back to His ways. Bravely they all tried, but in the end they all failed to turn the religious they were sent to back to God from the error of their ways for longer than a short time. From Abel through to Jesus Christ, the 'cornerstone' of these prophets, every one was persecuted, some were beaten and some were killed."

In the above verses God says He sent prophets to turn the people away from sacrifice, but they would not listen.

The evidence against the sacrificial system as being from God is clear if we are to believe His prophets:

"Many, O LORD my God, (are) thy wonderful works (which) thou hast done, and thy thoughts (which are) to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: (if) I would declare and speak (of them), they are more than can be numbered.

"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book (it is) written of me,

"I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law (is) within my heart." [KJV-Bible: Psalms 40:5-8]

-----

"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

"And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God (is) judge himself. Selah.

"Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I (am) God, (even) thy God.

"I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, (to have been) continually before me.

"I will take no bullock out of thy house, (nor) he goats out of thy folds.

"For every beast of the forest (is) mine, (and) the cattle upon a thousand hills.

"I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field (are) mine.

"If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world (is) mine, and the fulness thereof.

"Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

"Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:" [KJV-Bible: Psalms 50:5-14]

-----

"Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: (and) my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

"O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give (it): thou delightest not in burnt offering.

"The sacrifices of God (are) a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." [KJV-Bible: Psalms 51:14-17]

-----

"Thus saith the LORD, The heaven (is) my throne, and the earth (is) my footstool: where (is) the house that ye build unto me? and where (is) the place of my rest?

"For all those (things) hath mine hand made, and all those (things) have been, saith the LORD: but to this (man) will I look, (even) to (him that is) poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

"He that killeth an ox (is as if) he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, (as if) he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, (as if he offered) swine's blood; he that burneth incense, (as if) he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose (that) in which I delighted not." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 66:1-4]

-----

"Therefore have I hewed (them) by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments (are as) the light (that) goeth forth.

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

"But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me." [KJV-Bible: Hosea 6:5-7]

-----

There are many more prophetic messages, most clearly being characterizations of animal sacrifice as not from God.

If one is to believe the saints, God inspired sacrifice. But if one is to believe the prophets whom God inspired, He certainly did not, and abhors sacrifice.

Nevertheless, He accepted it. We know He directed the "ceremonies" to have meaning for the Children of Israel.

But we need to face the fact that the death of Jesus was not required by God because He has some formula in heaven whereby a particular amount of blood equals atonement for sin.

We need to study why God's Mercy never required sacrifice, why He allowed Moses and the Children of Israel to continue it if He is such a Wrathful God, and why, ultimately, Moses design of the sacrificial ceremony required the death of Jesus Christ in God's eyes, even though He clearly despised that system Moses invented.

We need to admit our own culpability as part of the family of man, God's creations, the saints who continuously rebel rather than obey God in the Spirit of Mercy whose simple non-violent Precepts Jesus taught us throughout the Gospel.

At the moment our church makes a lot of money based on supporting the Divine nature of sacrifice, teaching that the blood of Jesus literally somehow pays for our sins.

It is going to be an uphill battle to convince what is now a corporation made up of people making many thousands of dollars a year, with mortgages, car payments, credit card payments, and the like... to reconsider the basis of their teachings and tell the Truth about God and Christ.

But as I reproduced from Jesus' teachings above, "with God all things are possible...", all mountains can be moved.

God bless you, thanks for writing!

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Who have you encouraged many lately with this doctrine of a God that kills, Robert? You certainly aren't encouraging me. I'm reminded of the Pharisees who called Jesus of Satan.

But how can Satan point out Satan's deceptions, His mischaracterization and lies about God?

How could Satan teach love for God and all of His Creation?

It would be impossible.

Yet I am here to encourage you, and all others in our church.

Encourage? Yeah, encourage the wicked to persist in their wickedness because according to you they will be saved anyway. Discourage the believers because faith, perseverance/patience, obedience, and love won't amount to anything since both good & evil will in the end be all saved anyway!

God has Power. God has Promised, He has sworn by Himself in Righteousness, that all the earth will convert to good.

God has a Plan which He says will accomplish this.

Take hold of that Promise, Gerry, take hold of the Promise of Christ to lose nothing God gave Him.

God has taught us what is Good in His Eyes. Don't fall for the line of "foolish preaching" that will have us assigning our evil to God.

Doing so is the strong delusion Paul wrote about. Religion that exalts some people over others is a snare for spreading the Gospel by foolish preaching.

Let your joy in God be full. Reassure your unbelieving friends, your family, and all you meet - you will find that they are responsive today to a Loving and Merciful God who offers to save them from the world situation around us, the result of our attempts at living without God and doing things our own way.

The children of this world, unlike the children of light, know there is no way out anymore but God's Way. We are destroying ourselves and they can see it.

Reassure yourself... God does not change. There will be no evil-doing left to do. He has the Power to keep His Promises.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." [KJV-Bible: Jeremiah 29:11]

Casey

[Gerr]

There is one thing I have observed in discussions, especially in matters of theology, and that is: the more twisted the reasoning, the more Scripture quoted as though the twisted reasoning would be straightened out by a multitude of verses.

So let's cut the chase. What you are advocating is the same lie the wily serpent told Eve back in the garden. God told A & E, if you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil, you will die. The serpent brazenly contradicted the LORD God Himself and said, "you will not surely die."

To be blunt, your theology is nothing new. It was hatched in the serpent's mind way back in the garden. A & E swallowed it hook line & sinker, as you & many others have done. I have no doubt in my mind that this is one of those "doctrines of demons" that the enemy "masquerading as an angel of light" is trying to palm off, because it contradicts the plainest teachings of Scripture just as surely as the serpent contradicted the plainest words God Himself spoke.

Gerry

[CaseyButler]

There is one thing I have observed in discussions, especially in matters of theology, and that is: the more twisted the reasoning, the more Scripture quoted as though the twisted reasoning would be straightened out by a multitude of verses.

Hi Gerry,

There is no twisted reasoning in the theology of God's Covenant of Promise to save the world. It is the straightforward Gospel you also are supposed to be spreading.

There is no twisted reasoning in the theology of Jesus Christ's sacrifice made for the same purpose.

People only need twisted theologies reasoned by men to lie about God's Love and intentions, to lie about His Plan of eternal life offered to all men after we have learned without doubt and by experience that we need God.

We Adventists condemn our own beliefs by condemning God as having the character of Satan, that of a tempter and a liar, at the same time we try to portray a God of Love.

Again, Mrs. White pointed out to us:

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view." - Selected Messages, page 355.

"Behold, say the Scripture, 'the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee.' Isa. 60:2. It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy and truth... (Isa. 40:9, 10 then quoted) Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, 'Behold your God.' The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love." - COL 415.

Those last rays of Merciful Light are here right now, due to God's people's own foolishness down through the centuries.

However, if we Seventh-Day Adventists open our eyes and step into that Light, recognizing our foolishness before God's Wisdom that has saved all mankind through His Plan of Salvation despite our selfishness, we will truly be the Light Bearers of God in these last days.

God does not lie. Jesus does not lie. It is the sworn testimony of God Almighty, the Creator of all, that He intends to convert and save all the earth, that He has the Power to do it, and that's what His Son came and died for.

This same message of confidence in God's Power is taught throughout the Bible.

It is only His servants that seek out literal meanings for Spiritual words in order to claim God's sworn Covenant with mankind is a lie.

Why would that be? Think it through...

Why does anyone seek the lies of the serpent that would have God kill those whom they can't abide rather than have Him convert them?

Tell me, you and I, if our circumstances and upbringing were reversed, wouldn't I believe what you believe and you believe what I believe right now?

"Born is sin" means we are born into circumstances created by sin, circumstances beyond our control that form and shape us into what we are.

Don't you think God knows that? Don't you think He knows why the person you detest most in this world is what he or she is?

Why is it so hard for you to understand His love for them then?

Because you also are a victim of circumstance - a victim of the teachings of His servants who are so self-centered as to believe God is responsible for the circumstances we leave people to be born in by not obeying God.

In all honesty we have to admit that if all Seventh-Day Adventists lived the teachings of Jesus Christ our world would be a different place.

Circumstances His creations are born into would be very different.

You are saved. You can't get out of it. Blame, call them Satan, and cast out all you condemn for the circumstances God's servants have caused them to be born into, God still loves you.

But know that He still loves them as well.

Spread the word, Gerry.

Jesus told a parable about His friends in the last day:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

"And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

"Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and (my) fatlings (are) killed, and all things (are) ready: come unto the marriage.

"But they made light of (it), and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

"And the remnant took his servants, and entreated (them) spitefully, and slew (them).

"But when the king heard (thereof), he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

"Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

"So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

"And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast (him) into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"For many are called, but few (are) chosen." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 22:2-14]

Is the Seventh-Day Adventist Church chosen by God to the Church Triumphant, bringing in the sheaves, as Mrs. White believed? Or will His harvest be gathered by those who are willing to chosen, instead?

Our leaders are currently committed to other business, puffed up and unwilling to listen to anyone without long lists of letters following his or her name. Thy have invested heavily in doctrine based on other teachings than God and Christ's Covenant of Promise.

They need oil in their lamps, help them.

Casey

[Robert]

There is no twisted reasoning in the theology of God's Covenant of Promise to save the world. It is the straightforward Gospel you also are supposed to be spreading.

2 Cor 5:13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died[Christ as man] for all; therefore all have died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh [as condemned & lost]; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

God has reconciled "all men" in Jesus Christ. That is a universal statement, but at the same time individually speaking men must be reconciled to God by receiving the gospel.

Universally the whole human race died to the demands of God's law "in Christ". Hence when "one died, all died". The justice of the law has been legally answered. This is a universal truth. Since God will not force this truth on His fallen creation we must receive Him by faith.

[Ted Oplinger]

Good evening again, Casey

Let's see here...

Quote:

I am not trying to be adversarial to you or anyone else...

If you can be this adversarial without trying...it certainly explains much. It would also explain that little "i before e" comment that was really unnecessary...

So far as my tone is concerned...it is a bit frustrating communicating with one so devoted to skimming through posts, pursuing flawed premises and faulty posits, sighing "Alas, poor me!" when you should find that your opinion is held as untenable by the many, and making character assessments of those not buying your line...that one about me desiring Moses and all the OT faithful to be lost is a real winner in that category.

All said, I will take your apology at face value, as there is much to apologize for.

Now then, you made an assertion I was "trying to trap you". My reply was indeed the truth - I have no need to do this, for you have done this to yourself, either through lack of consistent and clear communication, or by lack of consistent and clear lineage of thought.

In post #99053, we have:

Quote:

The doctrine of "justification by faith", rather than faith and works, contradicts God's Law, and was invented by theologians long after the Law and Testimony were sealed.

The bolded words there are the declared alternative you appear to advocate. That alone I hold as unBiblical, as it declares Christ's blood and sacrifice alone is not sufficient for our salvation.

This post in and of itself provides enough, yet there is this one: in post #99220 we have:

Quote:

Jesus NEVER taught "Justification of SELF by faith".

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." [KJV-Bible: Romans 3:26-31]

If we establish the Law as Paul said, Ted, then our faith is in what? Faith as men teach it that SELF is justified before God by our faith?

Yet it is quite clear in Romans 3 (which you quoted) "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

So, which is it? The Bible does not teach justification by faith alone - which you declared to be a mere invention of theologians (yet is contradicted by there very verse in Romans 3), but rather faith AND works?

Or is it "justification of SELF by faith"?

To take your statement to its logical conclusions...this latter statement necessarily in turn contradicts the faith and works implication in the earlier post, as justification by any combination with works is necessarily justification of SELF, as it is SELF realizing the need for salvation, and it is SELF wanting to do these works to be saved, because SELF is incapable of the kind of love you seem to be advocating...and as Robert is fond of saying, we have this SELF until the day we die.

Second of all, when I quote the Bible declaring righteousness by faith apart from works of the Law, and following that in the same passage the verse declaring righteousness by faith verily produces obedience to the Law (which is what Paul is declaring there)...why are you necessarily assigning me to be advocating a righteousness of SELF by faith, when I never spoke of this?

And you wonder why some of us here (including myself) are just a bit frustrated/exasperated?

Later...

[Ted Oplinger]

Casey,

Quote:

But we need to face the fact that the death of Jesus was not required by God because He has some formula in heaven whereby a particular amount of blood equals atonement for sin.

My dear brother, you appear to be in severe misunderstanding as to a great many issues concerning sin, its nature, and what it required of our Living God to resolve the issue of sin while at the same time not destroying His perfect justice.

There are some extremely deep legal issues that God must necessarily address in order to make mankind's atonement possible. The over-simplistic defining of "love", "mercy", and "killing" dismisses God's Justice as unneccessary, and fails to grasp what the sacrificial system REALLY and TRULY illustrated.

In truth, atonement is indeed all about the Blood: the Blood of Christ shed for us. It is not because of some formula to satisfy a bloodthirsty God that Christ dies for us, but rather in what the Blood signifies in and of itself juxtaposed to what sin is, and what it took for Christ to redeem the human race.

It appears you advocate a Cross-less Christianity. Is this indeed correct?

Quote:

We need to study why God's Mercy never required sacrifice, why He allowed Moses and the Children of Israel to continue it if He is such a Wrathful God, and why, ultimately, Moses design of the sacrificial ceremony required the death of Jesus Christ in God's eyes, even though He clearly despised that system Moses invented.

No, rather, it would appear that you need to re-think what it is God is really trying to communicate through that statement, and it isn't that Mercy somehow trumps Justice in resolving the sin issue in totality.

I will venture you this point: the sin issue goes way beyond a simple breach in behavior between God and Man.

Second, I should like to see your Biblical texts making the case that Moses invented the sacrificial system. Every text you provided from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and the Psalms are taken out of the context they were written to address. This time, please stick to those passages declaring Moses as "inventing" it.

Next upon that, I should like to see the Biblical texts making the case that Jesus despised such a system of Moses' own invention.

I would then ask of you to place those text cases next to every mention of these sacrifices pointing to that ultimate Sacrifice Jesus Christ would make at the Cross.

Again, you seem to make the case for a Cross-less Christianity.

Yet justification by faith in Christ alone is impossible without the Cross, else what Paul has to say in Galatians 2:20 is a lie.

Again, you yourself call your own theology into question on some very rudimentary points.

Quote:

I quit working in the "world" three years ago. During that time I've studied, and I've stuck to scripture and haven't read much of anyone else's opinions. I've been studying through prayer for wisdom as the Bible and Mrs. White promise will bring us knowledge.

It matters not to me how little or how much time a person devotes to prayer and the study of the Bible and Mrs. White IF one from the start has flawed premises they proceed from. One Hal Lindsey sang the same song as you, and pointed to such a religious experience so as one should not doubt his word, and yet today has been, and still is, in my opinion, one of the biggest propagators of deception known to Christendom today.

Incidentally, you make the claim of studying sister White...yet your case about the sacrificial system are in complete contradiction to her writings as well. How anyone can read chapter 30, Patriarchs and Prophets, and come away with the case she advocates Moses invented the sacrificial services attending the sanctuary, is beyond me.

It is again getting late, and I must depart once again.

Later...

[CaseyButler]

Casey,

Quote:

But we need to face the fact that the death of Jesus was not required by God because He has some formula in heaven whereby a particular amount of blood equals atonement for sin.

My dear brother, you appear to be in severe misunderstanding as to a great many issues concerning sin, its nature, and what it required of our Living God to resolve the issue of sin while at the same time not destroying His perfect justice.

[Robert]

Are you questioning the Holy Spirit of both me and the prophets? Casey

Nice try...i.e., putting yourself with the prophets. So yes, I question IF the Holy Spirit is the one teaching you this heresy called Universalism. Why? The Holy Spirit does not contradict the Bible as you do.

[Gerr]

Casey, do you understand what a/the Covenant is? No man/woman can received the benefits of the Covenant unless they abide by the terms of that covenant. So, unrepentant people who do not agree or live by the terms of the Covenant can in no way claim its blessings. This is made plain in Heb 8:9 where God says, [color:red]"because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them..." NKJ.

So, because of their unbelief, they did not enter His rest, not just the earthly rest in Canaan, but more importantly, the heavenly rest in the earth made new. See Heb 3&4. Again, you are contradicting the plainest statement in Scripture.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

"So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

"And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast (him) into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"For many are called, but few (are) chosen." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 22:2-14]

Casey, how can you quote these passages and totally ignore or miss what it is saying? Again, your doctrine totally contradicts the plainest statements of Jesus, i.e. the one without the wedding garment was cast out into "outer darkness". Why would there be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" if such a garmentless person will be saved anyway?

Quote:

Is the Seventh-Day Adventist Church chosen by God to the Church Triumphant, bringing in the sheaves, as Mrs. White believed? Or will His harvest be gathered by those who are willing to chosen, instead?

Since you bring in EGW, I can show you a statement where she plainly states in unequivocal terms that NOT all will be saved. Unfortunately, I am in the office right now and can't give you the quote.

Quote:

Our leaders are currently committed to other business, puffed up and unwilling to listen to anyone without long lists of letters following his or her name. Thy have invested heavily in doctrine based on other teachings than God and Christ's Covenant of Promise.

I am convinced that most of the leaders I have met are just as dedicated as anyone and working just as hard as anyone trying to hasten the Lord's coming.

Quote:

They need oil in their lamps, help them.

Casey

And why should you care whether they have oil or not if in the end they will be saved anyway?

Gerry

[Gerr]

You quote much, but God still says:

The soul who sins shall die. Ez 18:4,20.

The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23

NOT eternal life!!!

Gerry

[Naomi]

You quote much, but God still says:

The soul who sins shall die. Ez 18:4,20.

The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23

NOT eternal life!!!

Gerry

Everything is important in its proper perspective; however, as you just said Gerry, the bottom line is Ez 18 and Rom 6:23 is the bottom line.

It is short, simple and complete reality.

One is walking on dangerous ground to overlook, teach, or attempt to justify anything different.

Thank you.

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Are you questioning the Holy Spirit of both me and the prophets? Casey

Nice try...i.e., putting yourself with the prophets. So yes, I question IF the Holy Spirit is the one teaching you this heresy called Universalism. Why? The Holy Spirit does not contradict the Bible as you do.

God's sworn Testimony, sworn in Righteousness you can't even concieve of, by Power you can't even conceive of, is to convert all of the earth.

It is you who contradict the Bible and His Word, using your own carnality and hatred for others as your authority.

Let me translate what I said for those who have shown only themselves capable only of evil feelings towards me here, Robert:

I said (translated): Invalidating what the Holy Spirit has taught me is understandable, though wicked...

However questioning what the Holy Spirit taught the prophets is an act of blasphemy and unbelief.

May God shower His Spirit upon you,

Casey

[Robert]

God's sworn Testimony....is to convert all of the earth.

That's force!!! Therefore it is not of God. You are teaching the doctrine of devils!!!

Rob

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Robert

.........................

It is you who contradict the Bible and His Word' date=' using your own carnality and hatred for others as your authority.

Let me translate what I said for those who have shown only themselves capable only of evil feelings towards me here, Robert:

I said (translated): Invalidating what the Holy Spirit has taught me is understandable, though wicked...

However questioning what the Holy Spirit taught the prophets is an act of blasphemy and unbelief.

May God shower His Spirit upon you,

Casey

[/quote']

Casey, I have underlined a part of your statement for accent. I have pretty much stayed out of these long discussions, however, your statement to Robert appeared to be harsh, judgemental and a personal attack. Is that the impression you chose to give?

[CaseyButler]

Casey, do you understand what a/the Covenant is? No man/woman can received the benefits of the Covenant unless they abide by the terms of that covenant. So, unrepentant people who do not agree or live by the terms of the Covenant can in no way claim its blessings. This is made plain in Heb 8:9 where God says, [color:red]"because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them..." NKJ.

So, because of their unbelief, they did not enter His rest, not just the earthly rest in Canaan, but more importantly, the heavenly rest in the earth made new. See Heb 3&4. Again, you are contradicting the plainest statement in Scripture.

Gerry, the Covenant of Promise is not just "a" covenant.

It is THE Covenant of Promise whose terms are plainly spoken through the Words of God, and also is confirmed by Jesus Christ who sacrificed His Life that we might believe in it.

The Covenant of Promise is simple, its terms straightforward, spoken and sworn by God in His Own Righteousness, Promising to convert all the earth.

Let's look at what you are doing...

Do you hear Paul preaching differently to the Jews than he did to the Gentiles? He does. He also stated that he does. You are using allegorical teachings of Paul's that are cusomized for the group to whom he is speaking in whichever epistle he is writing.

By taking them literally you are canceling out the Words of God and Christ.

Paul never intended that.

To the Jews, for whom the preaching of Christ was a stumblingblock because they were taught by their fathers to follow Moses, Paul attempted to show them how God's inspiration through Moses produced allegories to the coming of Christ, characterizing Christ as High Priest in a Temple in heaven.

Now both Paul and Jesus inform us that the real Temple and Heaven of the New Covenant is within US. It is the state of our Spirit with God.

God requires no temples, no sacrifice - except the Temple of a contrite heart, and the Sacrifice of our lips: praise and thanksiving.

To the Gentiles Paul taught no such thing, rather he taught straight salvation through Christ in what he describes allegorically as Christ's intercessory role.

Why did Paul teach different concepts to different groups?

Because, as is obvious throughout the Bible, and as Jesus taught, and as Paul also pointed out so beautifully: God Himself accepts people where they are. To each God appears as they expect Good to be. Even to the froward God appears to him as Froward.

Can you put yourself in Paul's shoes for a moment?

In Paul's letters we are given the record of perhaps the greatest evangelist who ever lived, preaching expediently to different groups to share the basic Gospel of God's salvation and Promise of eternal life.

We can watch as he changes through the years, from a disciple of Christ spreading the Gospel, to becoming a judgmental "hireling" shepherd as he is pestered by the groups his Gospel converted, all of them requesting that HE settle their differences and act as God in the place of God.

He could not refuse... He loved them and wanted to "protect" those to whom he brought the Gospel.

However, Jesus is the only Good Shepherd.

We can see God's snare in action, a snare that no saint, no matter how true, can avoid - because our love for one another over time becomes a barrier to sharing love with anyone else at all. Saints are persecuted and suffer the consequences of being persecuted as humans who lack God's Perfect Love.

But know this: Through all of Paul's trials and his falling into the role of judge, Paul NEVER disbelieved in God's Love for those whom Paul found himself judging at the urgent request of the various churches Paul felt responsible for.

He threatened God's Wrath against people, yes, but WHAT IS GOD'S WRATH? Listen to Paul's description:

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected (us), and we gave (them) reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

"For they verily for a few days chastened (us) after their own pleasure; but he for (our) profit, that (we) might be partakers of his holiness." [KJV-Bible: Hebrews 12:5-10]

Chastening of the believing saints eventually yields peaceable fruits and joy, but the chastening of those who don't believe God's Promises is perceived as "wrath".

But the chastening, rebukes, and hardships that saints attribute to God, and "God's Wrath" which they claim sinners are subject to, are one and the same.

Far from what you claim... It is really the unbelief in that Promise, unbelief in the Mercy and Plan and Power of God to convert all the earth, that truly prevents people from entering God's rest.

Because they are NEVER ceratin of their own salvation if they doubt God's determination to save all.

Did the same man who wrote Romans Chapter 11, calling the Jews the natural branches on whom the Gentiles are grafted, thus assuring us that all would be saved without repentence because it was God who caused their unbelief in Christ in order to cause the conditions where Christ could appear to begin with...

Did that same man write this:

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they (have) of the Jews:

"Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

"Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." [KJV-Bible: 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16]

Which verses have been used down the centuries to excuse Christian persecution and genocide against the Jews, without whom there would no scripture or Christianity to beging with!

If Paul wrote this - a Jew himself as were all of the Apostles -NOTE that he was talking to the Thessolonians, not the Romans or the Hebrews.

How differently would Paul have said the same thing to Romans or Jews?

Remember the Life and Teachings of Jesus Christ, His Life is the Only Way we can hope to interpret what is of the Holy Spirit that comes from ANY man, especially when using Spiritual words.

Peter warns all who would misinterperate Paul:

"And account (that) the longsuffering of our Lord (is) salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

"As also in all (his) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as (they do) also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." [KJV-Bible: 2 Peter 3:15-16]

Spiritually "Unlearned" does not mean untrained to read the scripture by the wisdom of man, rather it means not allowing God through His Holy Spirit to reveal Spiritual words and allegory to us.

The warning is there from Paul himself:

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, (are called):

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

"And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, (yea), and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

"That no flesh should glory in his presence." [KJV-Bible: 1 Corinthians 1:25-29]

Which glory our own scholars and theologians thrive on, to our church's shame.

God bless you,

Casey

[Robert]

Here's Casey's message in a nutshell:

Don't worry unbeliever...in the end God will convert you and make you believe. So don't pay any attention to the voice of conscience that says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts...." [Heb 3:7,8]

[Gerr]

Jesus: "...unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Lk 13:3,5 NKJ.

"Let both (wheat & tares) grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." Mt 13:30 NKJ

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." Jn 15:6 NKJ

Paul: "but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned." Heb 6:8 NKJ.

"These (the wicked) shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day..." 2 Thes 1:9 NKJ

EGW: "Now, have we that inward faith? It rests with us. There are two classes to the end of time--a party to be separed in the left hand He calls "goats," and there is a party to be on the right hand He calls "sheep." Every soul may be saved if he believes in Christ as his personal Saviour. [color:blue][but] not all will be saved. Not because Jesus does not want them to be saved, for He is drawing every soul. Whatever may be their position, whatever may be their education, their nationality or their training, He is drawing every soul to Himself. Why? Because in Him is life, and light and truth, and all of these are essential to us for our happiness daily in this present life; and all these things are going to help us bear with greater ease the burdens and trials and perplexities of life." Misc. Collections 1SAT p. 152.

Gerry

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage...

Casey, how can you quote these passages and totally ignore or miss what it is saying? Again, your doctrine totally contradicts the plainest statements of Jesus, i.e. the one without the wedding garment was cast out into "outer darkness". Why would there be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" if such a garmentless person will be saved anyway?

[Robert]

Here's Casey's message in a nutshell:

Don't worry unbeliever...in the end God will convert you and make you believe. So don't pay any attention to the voice of conscience that says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts...." [Heb 3:7,8]

CASEY!!! Is the above your message or not???

[CaseyButler]

You quote much, but God still says:

The soul who sins shall die. Ez 18:4,20.

The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23

NOT eternal life!!!

Gerry

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" [KJV-Bible: John 10:25-27]

I encourage you to believe in Jesus and God's Power once more.

Your friends will not help you when you stand before God Almighty, answering for these messages condemning Him to be Satan.

Shame on you.

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You quote much, but God still says:

The soul who sins shall die. Ez 18:4,20.

The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23

NOT eternal life!!!

Gerry

Everything is important in its proper perspective; however, as you just said Gerry, the bottom line is Ez 18 and Rom 6:23 is the bottom line.

It is short, simple and complete reality.

One is walking on dangerous ground to overlook, teach, or attempt to justify anything different.

Thank you.

Both quotes say the man who sins will die. Neither imply God's failure to Resurrect that man and convince him to convert through Love since here he was surrounded by death-god worshippers who could not share God's Mercy granted to them...

Should time last, you and I will die.

But you imply God will fail in His promise?

You claim the feeble Love and feeble Mercy that you or I show people is sufficient in God's eyes to be their last chance, making God judge and executioner of OUR enemies?

What did God do to you, Naomi, that you would help Gerry place such a stumbingblock of doubt of God and Christ before your brothers and sisters here?

I'd say the ground people who feel that way stand on is not only dangerous, but about to swallow them up as it did certain other folks who bucked the Will of God.

REJOICE! What do you fear if you believe in Jesus Christ?

No hocus-pocus "justification by faith" legalistic doctrine created to make money can bind the saints saved by Jesus for God.

BELIEVE IT! :-)

May God bless you and remind you of the Mercy He has shown you...

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here's Casey's message in a nutshell:

Don't worry unbeliever...in the end God will convert you and make you believe. So don't pay any attention to the voice of conscience that says, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts...." [Heb 3:7,8]

CASEY!!! Is the above your message or not???

Hello, Robert. I hope you can hear yourself.

You claim God does not use force, I agree with you.

But if that's what you really believe then explain the following:

"Tell ye, and bring (them) near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? (who) hath told it from that time? (have) not I the LORD? and (there is) no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; (there is) none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I (am) God, and (there is) none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth (in) righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 45:21-23]

You are calling God Almighty a liar by claiming He will burn anyone. Why?

Again:

"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, (As) I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." [KJV-Bible: Romans 14:10-11]

Again:

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of (things) in heaven, and (things) in earth, and (things) under the earth; And (that) every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ (is) Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [KJV-Bible: Philippians 2:9-11]

You've got it right, GOD WILL NOT FORCE anyone!

BUT EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS HIM THROUGH CONVERSION TO HIS LOVE.

That's my message.

If you want to go out and start sinning, go ahead, but I thought you were "justified" already and on the way to being perfect because you love Him so much?

The world's time is ending, can't you see that?

People will soon have no where else to turn but to their Savior. Because by hating one another they have forced destruction on themselves.

The question is, when Adventists face God's Judgement Seat soon, will they still be denying His Power to convert all that He has sworn in His Covenant of Promise quoted above?

It is a time of joy... Ask God. Ask Him if He's going to save the world. Would it not be fantastic to have the Power of God behind you again?

God bless you and fill you with His Light,

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

Hi Naomi,

Nice edit. Adding "personal attack" to "harsh and judgmental" gives your message just that much more sting.

But Jesus said:

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." [KJV-Bible: Luke 10:19]

Why are you calling my attention to my own judgment of how I myself have been treated by your friends here? Am I judging them to death - am I judging them as unworthy of God as they judge me?

I see no comment from you about their judgments.

Why would anyone want to see God forced to kill ME based on the hatred I've been shown here, because THEY have not claimed God's Promise to save me and everyone else they are condemning by teaching people to doubt their own salvation?

Have you ever claimed a Promise from the Bible for yourself? Or perhaps a relative or a friend?

Why do you believe Robert and his friends are refusing to claim God's Promise to save other religions, other races, and all of their friends, relatives and enemies?

Paul wrote:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know (them), because they are spiritually discerned.

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." [KJV-Bible: 1 Corinthians 2:14-16]

It's true, Naomi. I have the mind of Christ. By it, I believe Christ, and I have claimed God's Promise through Christ to save all the earth - you, Robert, Gerry, and all others.

I hate no one, I love all through Christ.

God bless you and help you not to be offended in me again...

Casey