The state of the Pharisees

[Yong T Tay]

D. Allan,

Abraham never heard of Jesus' death and resurrection and yet the Bible called him the father of the faithful because he believed in God. Abraham was one of those millions who never heard of Christ and yet was saved. To me faith means to accept God's grace in Christ.

yongttay

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Yongttay

Quote:

Abraham was one of those millions who never heard of Christ and yet was saved. To me faith means to accept God's grace in Christ.

Abraham did see Jesus,

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

Gen 18:16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

Norman

[Yong T Tay]

Yes Norman, Abraham did see Jesus in faith, But he never heard of Him. The only sure thing he knew was that God promised him that out of his Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Job had never heard of Jesus, but he believed that he would see God with his own eyes though worms would ate up all his flesh. There is no salvation beside Jesus for all human, whether one had heard of Jesus or not.

yongttay

[Robert]

Which is Spiritual "destruction"

The Bible doesn't say that! So you are making it up. You are spreading lies!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Yongttay,

Quote:

Yes Norman, Abraham did see Jesus in faith, But he never heard of Him

Abraham saw the LORD/Jesus with his own eyes and also in vision.

I don't know where you stand on SOP but here's a quote from DA. Every Jew had heard of and were waiting for Christ/the Messiah. They had the wrong concerption of Him though.

"Abraham had greatly desired to see the promised Saviour. He offered up the most earnest prayer that before his death he might behold the Messiah. And he saw Christ. A supernatural light was given him, and he acknowledged Christ's divine character. He saw His day, and was glad. He was given a view of the divine sacrifice for sin. Of this sacrifice he had an illustration in his own experience. The command came to him, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, . . . and offer him . . . for a burnt offering." Gen. 22:2." P468

Upon the altar of sacrifice he laid the son of promise, the son in whom his hopes were centered. Then as he waited beside the altar with knife upraised to obey God, he heard a voice from heaven saying, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from Me." Gen. 22:12. This terrible ordeal was imposed upon Abraham that he might see the day of Christ, and realize the great love of God for the world, so great that to raise it from its degradation, He gave His only-begotten Son to a most shameful death.

Abraham learned of God the greatest lesson ever given to mortal. His prayer that he might see Christ before he should die was answered. He saw Christ; he saw all that mortal can see, and live. By making an entire surrender, he was able to understand the vision of Christ, which had been given him. He was shown that in giving His only-begotten Son to save sinners from eternal ruin, God was making a greater and more wonderful sacrifice than ever man could make." P469

I also found this verse which is after Abraham offered his son.

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

this merits study

Norman

[Look Alive!]

Quote:

You say God won't force but God WILL KILL. And interesting and bloodthirsty concept worthy of man...

Aye, here is the crux of the matter. An absolutely twisted, inherently self-contradictory statement belying an absolutely sadistic, twisted, inherently self-contradictory notion of God which is absolutely NOT supported by the revelation of the character of God -- self-sacrificing Love -- brought to us by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[Naomi]

Welcome Look Alive to C/A .. we’re glad you are here.

WOW ... you used a lot of adjectives. I'll have to dissect & digest your descriptive response.

[Look Alive!]

Thanks for the welcome, Naomi!

Fortunately the adjectives repeat, so you will only need to dissect the string once.

Blessings!

[D. Allan]

Yongttay, thanks for your good responses.

Quote:

Job had never heard of Jesus, but he believed that he would see God with his own eyes though worms would ate up all his flesh. There is no salvation beside Jesus for all human, whether one had heard of Jesus or not.

That solves the problem for me. Millions, maybe billions of people are saved by Jesus even though they never heard of Him and never put faith in Him. It sounds just like something that very gracious, humble, loving Man would do! It just make me love Him so much more!! more than I did just yesterday! :-)

Thank you, Yongttay!

[Robert]

Millions, maybe billions of people are saved by Jesus even though they never heard of Him and never put faith in Him.

Man...talk about twisting things.

Bible time:

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [How?] 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God [through creation], they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

"God has allotted to each a measure of faith" [Rom 12:3]. "...The true Light [Jesus],...lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9]

Either through direct revelation [the Bible] or nature itself, God has shed light on "every man". He, God, has given every man a measure of faith so that he will respond and believe, but many say, "no, we don't need you." And so they reject Christ! These remain under law and under law "the wages of sin is death". Who are you kidding? Not me!

Rob

[Look Alive!]

I find it strange that some argue so vehemently against God's mercy and for keeping others out of the Kingdom ... while others seek to proclaim that mercy and speak words of hope founded upon it for those who have not had the blessings of a revelation of God in Christ that we have had. Now why is that, do you suppose? Why is it so important for some to believe that God's mercy cannot extend outside the rigid confines to which they would see it limited, confines which are themselves very obviously the product not of discernment and wisdom but mere stubborn literalism?

Luke 9:47-50

47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,

48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

How interesting that verses 49-50 follow right on the heels of the teaching about receiving a little child ... could these two issues be linked somehow?

And how interesting that the very next matter is THIS one:

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Those who want to see the fire of God come down and smite the rejectors of His grace or His person, Jesus Himself rebukes, stating they do not know what manner of spirit they are of. And then to clarify further? He announces HIS OWN WILL AND INTENT: "the Son of man is NOT come to destroy men's lives, but to SAVE them."

Seems pretty clear to me. I wish I could say it always has been. Alas, it has not. I have spent too many years listening to those who want to vehemently argue against grace and not enough years saturating myself on the true and living Word of God. I was AFRAID to read the Word of God, afraid I would find in it the same vehemence and rejection I saw reflected on the faces of those who were presumably His servants. I have been afraid to turn to scripture because I was taught to read it with this same darkening veil over my heart as would deny salvation to others, and not seeing any true difference between my own self as a sinner and these sinners, would deny salvation likewise to me.

No more. No more will I listen to the voices of servants of God who wish destruction upon others from the pique and petulance of their own sinful nature which they mistake for "righteous indignation". I will listen ONLY to the voice of He who came NOT to destroy men's lives but to save. HIS word, will I hear.

"But the Voice of Truth tells me a different story

The Voice of Truth says 'DO NOT BE AFRAID'

The Voice of Truth says 'this is for My glory'

Out of all the voices calling out to me

I will choose to listen and believe

I will choose to listen and believe -- the Voice of Truth."

[Yong T Tay]

Look Alive,

This is what I believe: Only those who accept God's grace in Jesus Christ would be saved. God knows all mankind, He knows exactly who would accept Christ and who would reject Christ irrespective whether that person had heard the gospel or not.

Jesus came to save all mankind from their sins, but there are some who love their sins so much that they do not want to be saved. God does not force salvation on any body. God makes salvation available to any body who wants it.

yongttay

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Yongttay,

Amen brother!

[Look Alive!]

This is what I believe: Only those who accept God's grace in Jesus Christ would be saved.

Yongttay, I believe this too. In this we are agreed!

I also believe in the power of God to bring salvation and grace to all. It is, after all, the Holy Spirit that brings us to repentance and salvation, not we ourselves. Can any of us claim we would have come to Christ without the direct agency of His Spirit working in our hearts? I sincerely think not, and hope none would dare make such a claim.

[David Koot]

I also believe in the power of God to bring salvation and grace to all.

Power, yes. However, that is not the only factor. But quite apart from that, the most basic issue is one of fidelity to the written Word, the Bible. The Bible speaks very plainly to the fact that some, in fact many will be lost, and perish in the lake of fire. That is a Scriptural fact. While God's power is a fact, that is a another fact which cannot be ignored, and still be faithtful to the Word.

A most elemental difference has revealed itself in these pages:

on the one hand, the principle and practice of taking the Bible as it reads, and seeking to develop a clear understanding of its meaning through prayerful and rigorous study of the passage, the words and their context.

On the other hand, receiving Biblical understanding by direct revelation from God via dreams. Now here is the 'rub.' If the explanation of a passage by dream would appear to contradict other Bible passages taken literally, then simply allegorize those other passages in order to fit into the construct presented in the dream.

I submit that the first way is far more accurate, and it is recommended in principle by Paul the apostle, as well as by Ellen G. White. The second way is extremely dangerous, and opens the door to various species of deception. But that is exactly what has been proposed on these threads. And, in carefully reviewing the several position statements, there is in fact a prima facie conflict between the positions which have been taken, and the Bible as it reads.

[D. Allan]

Millions have never heard of Jesus, Robert. They never had the opportunity to reject Him. Job for instance. However, most have a conception of God. Most cultures and peoples have a name for God. The American Indians call Him, "The Great Spirit;" most west Indians call Him, "Brahama;" some "Allah." Jesus came for the entire world's, past, present and future population. Not just a select few.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

...the most basic issue is one of fidelity to the written Word, the Bible.

Jesus said to the religious people of His time, - you think you havc salvation in the scriptures, but it is ME they are talking about.-

The Bible is a record of the revelation of God in this world. It was written by weak humans like us. By people like Peter and Paul who argued like we do. The true revelation of God is His acts in this world. We see many of them recorded in the Bible. The people who wrote them down had their own interpretations, even of events. The synoptic gosples don't always agree, etc. The author of Chronicle and the author of Judges had different interpretations. One said that King David was inspired by the evil one to take a census. The other said King David was asked by God to take a census. The true revelation of God is His love that is revealed in our hearts when we accept His grace. The life story Jesus leads many to accept the grace of God. Other peoples around the world in the past and in the present have never ever heard of Jesus, never had a chance to accept or reject Him. God will save them anyway. Jesus has revealed God's love and forgiveness to us. We experience it in our hearts.

The last revelation to the world will be a revelation of God's love.

[Look Alive!]

Quote:

The last revelation to the world will be a revelation of God's love.

Amen, "D."!

We speak of the character of Christ being reproduced in His people, as being a great witness to all of His salvation -- but of what do we imagine that character to consist? Of condemnation and exclusion? of fiery threats of death and doom? or of a LOVE and MERCY and HEALING RAIN that has the POWER to melt the hardened hearts and stiff necks of mankind?

Oh, forget me with my pithy & inadequate blathering words .... let's all soak this up!

Quote:

The last revelation to the world will be a revelation of God's love.

[Robert]

Millions have never heard of Jesus, Robert. They never had the opportunity to reject Him.

Maybe not "the name", but all men are given "a measure of faith" because God's Spirit illuminates the minds of all men!

Romans 1:19 ...that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

[David Koot]

The last revelation to the world will be a revelation of God's love.

The last great deception will also appear to be a revelation of God's love--the false Christ. How may one know the truth? The true revelation of God's love will be in harmony with His written Word.

[Look Alive!]

I do not see anything that indicates the last great deception will appear to be a revelation of God's love. Rather it appears the last great deception will appear to be a revelation of God's POWER. Uniting unanimously against the true Children of God so as to persecute and slaughter them is not a revelation of God's love, nor does it even appear as such -- though doubtless there will be those who argue that this is the "right and loving thing to do" for those "lost souls" who refuse to join the mainstreamers, since they clearly "will not be happy in heaven" and obviously "have made their choice" to "cross that hidden boundary."

Hmmm.... now let's see. I wonder which point of view is more prone to thinking that way? The one that believes God has both the power and the desire that not any should perish, that believes God is consistent with His own law when He enjoins upon us to "Love thine enemy" and "pray for those who persecute you"? Or the one that is already comfortable with the notion of destroying all who don't see eye to eye with them, indeed, would gladly count them permanently reprobate and beyond all reach and even go so far as to treat them as such??

[David Koot]

Uniting unanimously against the true Children of God so as to persecute and slaughter them is not a revelation of God's love, nor does it even appear as such

But the false christ will appear, say wonderful things such as Jesus said, will heal people, and give outward evidence that he is Christ. Consistent with this is the fact that the New Agers, the channelers, and others, are saying that the message of the ascended masters is love--that what the world needs is love, to put aside differences of religion and just have love.

Then, those who do not go along with the program will be denounced as enemies of God and of the people, and the cause of the terrible disasters which are befalling the world, and the world will turn upon them.

[CaseyButler]

[Look Alive!]

The Bible (book of Revelation specifically) does not talk about new-age channelers and ascended masters. It focuses specifically upon the state of Christendom in these words: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication!" It speaks specifically of a harlot mounted on a beast, the former representing the fallen state of what was SUPPOSED to be CHRIST's church and the latter representing an imperialist political power with a pretense at civil and religious liberty who is steered by her and whose energies and forces are harnessed to her hands and thereby, to her will.

It is not those suggesting that loving our enemies and putting aside our differences who will precipitate the crisis, but those who, while pointing fingers erroneously in that direction, build the image to the Beast on the dubious basis of the ludicrous fiction known as human "authority" to rail against and persecute the true Children of God whose hearts are united to the heart of Christ and the principle of His Kingdom: unselfish LOVE. Love that "seeketh not her own". Wherever they may come from (as it is indicated in Isaiah 19:18-25 - read it sometime.) It is these authoritarian control freaks who cannot abide for one second the idea that anyone might have an independent, free thought in their heads separate from the herd, who herd the masses together and proclaim that the world will be safer getting rid of all these "dissidents" who "refuse" to "obey" their "gospel" (a gospel of death and doom to anyone who doesn't fit our lockstep one-two-three checklist of what WE MERE HUMANS deem a "saved child of God").

But DON'T take my word for it ... open your EYES ... and WATCH ... it is unfolding all around us even now. WHO is trampling the constitution and the bill of rights? WHO indeed but those who put up the greatest appearance and veneer of "piety" and "family values"?? Who would NEVER think of "stooping" to consult a medium or trance channler or whatever.... yes it is the WHITEWASHED TOMBS who reign for babylon & beast in this hour. But of course they need a DEFLECTION SCHEME and a SCAPEGOAT, so they point fingers at what Christendom so easily and roundly condemns without truly understanding, ever: the world of gnostic and esoteric religions and the popular trends they spawn. Of course!! What an EASY target since all Christians are "united" against the supernatural -- witch craft, the occult, seances, trances, channellers, whatEVER. Makes an easy target because that stuff is already condemned. Easy way to take the heat off themselves!!! But REVELATION has their number!!!

[CaseyButler]

It is not those suggesting that loving our enemies and putting aside our differences who will precipitate the crisis, but those who, while pointing fingers erroneously in that direction, build the image to the Beast on the dubious basis of the ludicrous fiction known as human "authority" to rail against and persecute the true Children of God whose hearts are united to the heart of Christ and the principle of His Kingdom: unselfish LOVE. Love that "seeketh not her own".

True!

Here our church is also. We say: "You must believe as we believe, you must sign an oath to that effect to be baptized into our church. If you refuse, God will kill you at the end."

But what we are really saying is: "If you believe as we believe you will be saved!"

The False Christ.

Our church, claiming the power, through its doctrines, to save by what those doctrines are. Claiming that looking at OUR CHURCH, BELIEVING US, men will be saved.

Otherwise God will kill them.

This kind of message makes every Adventist Evangilist a False Christ! Every evangilist of any Christian denomination that requires people to claim allegiance to it.

Our church has the warning message and we can see this if we will only choose to before its too late. Other churches cannot, they are blinded by self-righteousness. Our church can help them and everyone else by witnessing Christ as the Savior, only preaching belief in Him as from God, and confessing our own culpibility, thus helping them to recognize theirs.

People need to see Jesus Christ to believe, not us or our doctrines. We are False Christs if we insist on any belief other than the Gospel in its Purity which is Jesus being sent from God to save mankind.

God bless you!

Casey