The state of the Pharisees

[David Koot]

All will be saved by His blood.

[Robert]

The death of Jesus reconciled sinners to God, through paying the price for their sins. Being reconciled to God, and being saved, are two different things. It is those who are justified by faith--that is, faith in Christ, who will be saved.

Actually the Bible teaches that the human was "saved" in Christ Jesus. Go to Eph 2:5

"...when we were dead in our transgressions [lost and under condemnation], [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

God's grace actually saved all humanity from the curse of the law. Read it again! "By grace YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED"! That's a universal statement, but if you read on when a knowledge of this truth comes then one must receive the truth by faith. Hence, "For by grace you have been saved [past tense] through faith [present tense]."

"In Christ" the world - the human race - all men - were (past tense) legally justified. Or as Romans 5:18 says - "there resulted justification of life to all men."

Now a question? How can babies, who have died before they are capable of making that faith decision, make it to heaven? And yes EGW states that they do:

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life."

Here's a possible answer:

"God never consigns anyone to eternal death solely on the basis of that person's sin in Adam, apart from willful persistent unbelief and sin on the part of the person so condemned. From this it necessarily follows that all who die before they are capable so such willful, persistent, unbelief and sin are saved." [What's Good about the Good News? Neal Punt, p. 67]

In other words because of Christ's universal salvation all men have been saved and the only way to lose this salvation is to reject it when God's Spirit brings it home. That’s about as close as I can get to universalism.

Rob

[D. Allan]

Quote:

David KootThe 'seeds' of universalism were not planted by Jesus Christ. Satan would be the one to nurture any 'plant' growing from those seeds.

Why would he (satan) want to encourage everyone that we are saved by the blood of Jesus?

If we are not saved by works, then it is only by grace through faith. What about the millions in the past who never had a chance to hear, to learn of grace, to have faith awakened? Are they judged by works? It wouldn't be fair, would it? I've no 'ax' to grind. No opinon. Just asking.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Robert: "For by grace you have been saved [past tense] through faith [present tense]."

Most interesting,Rob. Is the word "faith" one of Paul's many participals, a gerund? It is not a noun? If so I wonder why the translations don't say "through believing?"

Of course, faith for us didn't occur at the cross. We weren't even born, so it has to happen in our present. Excuse the dumb question.

[Clio]

What are you going to do when Jesus asks?

God bless you,

Casey

I am going to say, my Beloved Bridegroom, I entered into the Blood Covenant sealed with Your Life's Blood. I accept the robes of fine linen suitable for a marriage and the suit of Armor You so graciously have given symbolizing the final ratification of that covenant.

I gratefully and thankfully wear Your Righteousness, symbolized by the marriage garments and the Breastplate of Righteousness, for I have none of my own.

I am Your Blood-Bought daughter and delight in You my Kinsman Redeemer.

Clio

[David Koot]

Why would he (satan) want to encourage everyone that we are saved by the blood of Jesus?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

What about the millions in the past who never had a chance to hear, to learn of grace, to have faith awakened

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which (The Spirit) also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (those in bondage to sin before the flood)

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

All have had the opportuninty to hear the love of God and be saved by the grace of God. Not all accept however. There are some who have not heard the spoken word and they will be judged by the way they responded to their conscience.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Most interesting,Rob. Is the word "faith" one of Paul's many participals, a gerund? It is not a noun? If so I wonder why the translations don't say "through believing?"

Believing and faith are different responses, one human one spiritual.

Believing is an assent to something, only facts are nesscesary.

True faith is a love response. It is the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us. Then we can have the faith of Jesus and not our human failing faith that lets go when the pain is too great. The faith that comes from God is the result of a love for God, which is born by the love He has for us.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,(based on fact) ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, (Which gives us the fruit of the Spirit, one of them being the faith of Jesus)

Human belief is based on knowledge or fact. True faith is based on an inner life of certainty created by the Holy Spirit.

Norman

[CaseyButler]

::wanders into thread::

Casey said:

Quote:

I have the mind of Christ, David.

egads.

::totally freaking the bejabbers outta me in *this* thread::

Rudywoofs!

"...But we have the mind of Christ." [KJV-Bible: 1 Corinthians 2:16]

You are supposed to have the mind of Christ too! All of Paul's followers had it, as he states himself.

But our scholars and theologians, who are supposed to be our watchmen and the interpreters of Truth for our church by listening to the Holy Spirit, have robbed you of that.

Most Adventists today are ashamed to claim the mind of Christ, because we know our beliefs in a death-god are based on Catholic doctrine that, because our leaders have refused to hear those whom God has sent, was never allowed to be purged from our church by the Holy Spirit.

Our pioneers had enough light to bring real persecution in their day, the Sabbath alone was seen as "Jewishness" and anti-semitism, anti-anything Jewish was pervasive throughout Christianity at the time.

Mrs. White was even forced to accept segregated churches because of that very kind of rasicm.

But hold your head up and take hold of God's Promise of the Messiah...

Think like Christ and Love God, Love all people as He Loved all people, and died to prove to us that God Loves them too.

You have the mind of Christ. :-)

God bless you...

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

::wanders into thread::

Casey said:

Quote:

I have the mind of Christ, David.

egads.

::totally freaking the bejabbers outta me in *this* thread::

And did you notice? He says he is not completely converted yet claims to have the mind of Christ. Figure that one out.

Gerry

Was Paul completely converted? Was John, was Peter? Has any man on earth been completely converted except Jesus Christ?

If you're completely converted, why do you doubt my salvation and your own? Why do you still sin, assuming you're not perfect?

Truly Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself, and you too have the mind of Christ.

But cast doubt on His sacrifice by condemning any other person, cast doubt on God's Covenant that necessitated it, exalt yourself over even the most evil human you can think of, and you will be ashamed to claim that mind because you know in your heart that such is not the mind of Jesus.

I know that because I've been there too.

God bless you and give the mind of Christ...

Casey

[Look Alive!]

Your tone is simply is not Christ-like. I am sorry for that. I would like to talk to a Spirit-filled individual willing to hear what God has taught me.

I do not know whether I am Spirit-filled, because I still sin at times and I fall far short of Christlikeness, and I have no special gifts in particular for God's kingdom. However, I believe with all my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord precisely because He alone reveals the true character of God, which is love. He does this perfectly precisely because of His mercy and His willingness to lay down His life for those who do not deserve His mercy. As it says in Romans 5:6-11:

• 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

  9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

You see the God that Jesus Christ revealed to us in His life, death and resurrection, is precisely that God who would rather give up His own existence than to carry out the death sentence against the 'rebels' and 'sinners' who by His own law have merited that death sentence. That much is crystle clear to me. I don't know whether that means all will be saved, but I do know that the same Spirit in me which cries "Abba, Father!" desires nothing less than that. There is none good but God, so I know I cannot be the source of these feelings. And I too have wondered about some of the very verses you address, such as the one about God swaring by himself that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. I can't tell all my thoughts on that here as it would take too long, but I have wondered many things for which people, at least so far, have no satisfactory answers, so I have really felt alone pondering things.

Casey, I have seen your witness here and on other topics. I have seen a consisten presentation of a loving heavenly father and I have seen you bear up under some frighteningly heavy personal attack as a result, with people misquoting your words and twisting them, making negative assertions about your character, intentions and motives, questioning your spiritual allegiance, and even making outrageous and presumptuous statements about your sanity. (Is nothing sacred anymore? Is there no limit to how low men will stoop to press their points of view?) I see the fruit of the Spirit in your demeanor and in your continual focus on the great HOPE of salvation through the power of God, "not by works of righteousness that WE have done but according to His mercy." Your writing has helped lift a heavy darkness from me that made it hard for me to read scripture because whenever I read the Bible I had a pre-fabricated idea of what it all meant, and now for the first time in years I am reading it as a living, dynamic Word of God! And it is making sense, and not filling me with dread and guilt! BUT note well, naysayers, this does NOT make me feel like it's just OK to go out and sin. On the contrary it awakens in me a longing to please God and know Him better. And that to me is the clearest sign of the power of the Gospel: when it works changes in the heart.

So I might not be Spirit filled BUT I would like to be filled with the precious Spirit that obviously fills your heart with such hope and grace, and I am very willing to hear more of what God has taught you. Please continue.

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

All will be saved by His blood.

That is not in harmony with Scripture. In fact, Scripture says the opposite. The verse you seem to be referencing, is from one of Paul's letters to believers in a church. It is not addressed to unbelievers.

Hi David,

Scripture does not say the opposite. Scripture does not say or teach that we are justified of self by faith in a God that saves only us.

Rather, the scripture says we are justified by faith in a Loving God who is Willing, Determined, and Able to save all men as He has Promised, and as Jesus promised.

In other words, we are justified before God as we justify others and serve them, even the lowest sinner on earth as Christ Himself did.

Do you understand that Jesus commanded His followers to serve sinners and the poor, to spread the Gospel of Love?

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

What peace do these verses twisted into wicked judgments allow the other saints here who choose to believe, to whom God Promised salvation through His Mercy to give them peace?

Unbelievers are condemned to have no peace, for as long as they live remaining unbelievers because saints refuse to witness Jesus in Truth. But God will still save them.

They don't read the Bible. They get their idea of God and Christ from us and our teachings.

"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Wicked judgments against believers are blocking access to faith in God's Grace here, I have seen it. Self-made judges are standing in the way of others here, raising doubt about their faith in the Grace God has Promised them in His Covenant. Why?

Unbelievers have NO faith in His Grace, because they haven't seen Jesus Christ in our church. But God will still save them.

"And not only (so), but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Tell me please, David, have you read the book of Acts? Have you listened to the epistles you are quoting?

Why are those who believe in God as a Killer not performing the same heroic actions that resulted in the tribulations early Christians suffered?

Is it because they doubt their own salvation because the God's Oath to Himself in the Covenant of Promise is ignored?

Where is there Hope that ought to have them preaching and witnessing Jesus Christ to our nation today?

What do you consider "tribulation that worketh patience" in you, David? Is it my messages indicating my belief in the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the other great evangilists who shoes none of us today are worthy to loose?

If we allow God's Oath to assure us of the coming of Jesus Christ we all might actually suffer real tribulation, because we would be truly enthused at sharing His Love and His teachings to others.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

I know you are a saint now. But He died for all other sinners too, sinners our church is no longer spreading the Gospel of His Love to.

"Christ died for us" means sinners, who will also be made saints when they see Him as He really is, not as what any slothful and half-believing saints claim Him to be.

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

If we are saved and others are lost, did not even the Pharisees and scribes believe the same?

What reward will we have in heaven, but their reward?

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

And so His remaining enemies will also be saved, because they too are reconciled, and will believe when they see Him.

They will not believe us as long as we selfishly withhold His Truth recorded in the Covenant of the Messiah and the Life of Christ.

In fact, soon they will be reading God's Word themselves in order to discover why their nation has been taken from them, and all Christian churches who teach justification of self by faith, and who have not spread the Gospel in Truth, and who have accepted tax-exempt status from the Beast they support, will be taken to task for their deeds.

About God's "enemies", the sinners, Isaiah says:

"Let favour be shewed to the wicked, (yet) will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. LORD, (when) thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: (but) they shall see, and be ashamed for (their) envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 26:10-11]

"And not only (so), but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." [KJV-Bible: Romans 5:1-11]

But the sinners and unbelievers have no idea their sins have been atoned for. They have not the Joy in God we have by accepting His salvation for all, thus being assured even more of our own salvation.

By creating a doctrine of "justification of SELF by faith", all we do is justify our failure to witness and share Jesus with unbelievers and sinners, and do so as He witnessed to them Himself. Such an doctrine indicates a basic lack of understanding of Jesus' entire Ministry and His Teachings of selflessness.

By teaching others so, people mislead, attempt to control and outright condemn other saints for whom Jesus died in order to give complete and total assurance of their salvation.

Again: This is the scripture containing the sworn Oath of God that STILL IS now spoken directly to sinners by God Himself through the prophets.

It is Sealed by His Seal and no man will ever contradict Him:

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I (am) the LORD; and (there is) none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

"Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye (that are) escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god (that) cannot save. Tell ye, and bring (them) near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? (who) hath told it from that time? (have) not I the LORD? and (there is) no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; (there is) none beside me.

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I (am) God, and (there is) none else.

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth (in) righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

"Surely, shall (one) say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: (even) to him shall (men) come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 45:18-25]

Seek God through His Spirit and Jesus Christ.

Neither God nor the Holy Spirit nor Jesus live in the Bible. They live in our hearts when we invite them in.

Without allowing God as Jesus witnessed Him to speak to us through the Holy Spirit, we are making the Bible itself nothing more than a graven image overlaid in silver and gold.

May God bless you with His revealing Spirit...

Casey

[Robert]

If we are saved and others are lost, did not even the Pharisees and scribes believe the same?

No...many of the Pharisees, scribes and Jews REFUSED to accept Jesus Christ! Let's look at this:

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved.

Why will only a remnant of Israel be saved?

Rom 9:31 ...Israel who pursued righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone [Christ], 33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

This is very clear language. Only a remnant will be saved. Do you wish to distort this truth, Casey? If so I must take Paul's view over yours because he divinely inspired*.

* Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men, nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father....)

[CaseyButler]

So I might not be Spirit filled BUT I would like to be filled with the precious Spirit that obviously fills your heart with such hope and grace, and I am very willing to hear more of what God has taught you. Please continue.

But you are Spirit filled, and listening well enough without me, it seems. Is God fantastic or what? Jesus leads! Jesus leads! :-)

Remember these words of Jesus always:

"And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

"Blessed (are) the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Blessed (are) they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

"Blessed (are) the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

"Blessed (are) they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

"Blessed (are) the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

"Blessed (are) the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

"Blessed (are) the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

"Blessed (are) they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Blessed are ye, when (men) shall revile you, and persecute (you), and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great (is) your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." [KJV-Bible: Matthew 5:2-12]

These are the words of Jesus that have divided the house of Satan, brought down empires, broken them into pieces, they becoming like the chaffe of the summer threshing floors.

"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, (even) a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise (men) shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent (men) shall be hid.

"Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

"(Is) it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

"And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

"The meek also shall increase (their) joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

"For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:

"That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

"Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.

"But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

"They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." [KJV-Bible: Isaiah 29:14-24]

God bless you!

Casey

[Robert]

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved."

Let's look at the context of Hebrews chapter 10:

Verse 10 By this will [by Christ's determination] we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

That's a universal statement! Christ's doing and dying has set apart the human race once for ALL.

Verse 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his flesh [his humanity], 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith.

Now the warning:

26 If we sin deliberately after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

The "deliberate sin" here is not a sin against the law. No, the context reveals that it is the sin of unbelief. Let's read on:

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses [i.e., the book of the law that also contained the moral law] died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot [i.e., who has rejected Jesus Christ] , who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Note again that willful sin, in the above context, is trampling under foot the atonement and thereby insulting the spirit of grace. You are saying, "Jesus, I don't need your righteousness because I am just fine, thank you."

30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Again, very clear language! Casey...try to twist this out of context.

Robert

[CaseyButler]

Hi Robert,

You keep digging for death in the Bible - have you tried compiling the verses that confirm all will be saved?

Knowing Jesus as you do in your heart, which verses are metaphorical, the "all are saved" ones or the "hell, death, and destruction" ones?

I'll respond to your verses tomorrow... Have a wonderful Sabbath.

God bless you,

Casey

[Robert]

You keep digging for death in the Bible - have you tried compiling the verses that confirm all will be saved?

[Robert]

2] Since we take our characters to heaven (our mind set), if God takes into heaven the unregenerative, then heaven would become a cesspool. War, poverty, bloodshed and death would be an everyday occurrence as it is here on this planet.

By the above I am not advocating perfectionism!

Real quick, turn to Romans 7:24

"For I [the converted Paul] delight in the law of God, in my inmost self [i.e., in my mind/heart], 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind [my desires] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

Note Paul is falling short. He is not saying that he is totally given over to the flesh to live according to it. The preceding context is with respect to the spirituality of the law (see Romans 7:7-13). So the man of Romans 7 is struggling. One of the problems is that he is trying to use his converted willpower to fight the flesh. But that's another subject....

However, my point is this: Paul's character, his heart loves God's agape love. His mind/heart has been born again. If he didn't have the law of sin (the essence of self-love) in his members, Paul wouldn't have been sinning in any fashion. That's true with all of us....Take away our nature and we wouldn't ever sin.

If God takes to heaven those whose hearts/minds are out of harmony with His law of self emptying love then heaven would become hell because, "in heaven (let me quote EGW) none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them. [2T 132]

If you introduce "self-love" in heaven, you'll create hell. Since God will not force the minds of those who chose Lucifer's type of love then by default they chose death. Of course they don't see it that way for they think Lucifer will reign! They are deceived! What does Paul say?

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature he will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Did you read Paul? It seems, Casey, that you are trying to deceive us! You are saying God is going to force those who live for the flesh into heaven. That's a lie! Who said that? Paul. If you say opposite then you are of the devil! Your choice! That's right, choice!

Rob

[David Koot]

Rather, the scripture says we are justified by faith in a Loving God who is Willing, Determined, and Able to save all men

[Look Alive!]

Quote:

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth (in) righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

That is not a reference to being saved.

I find this interesting in regards to this verse:

Isaiah 45:23

"I have sworn by Myself,

The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness

And will not turn back,

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." (NASB)

This is paralleled in the New Testament with Romans 14:11:

"It is written:

'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,

'every knee will bow before me;

every tongue will confess to God.'" (NIV)

and Philippians 2:9-11

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

and gave him the name that is above every name,

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.

And contrasted in the New Testament with the test for antichrist spirits:

1 John 4:2-3

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

Now given this test of what spirits are and are not from God above, and contrasting this with the statement that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that JESUS IS LORD to the glory of God the Father, it stands to reason -- at least in my mind -- that this bowing and confessing in and of itself fulfills the criteria given above for determining a spirit to be from God. Were this bowing and confessing wrung involuntarily from unconverted rebels somehow, it would violate the scriptural test for determining them to be of anti-Christ spirit. AND, I might add, were this bowing and confessing wrung involuntarily from unconverted rebels somehow, THAT would be indeed a scene of "force and coercion" (as Robert has charged). So the ONLY scenario that makes sense is indeed to take this as a reference to being saved: the one where these rebels ARE acknowledging Christ freely because they HAVE been converted by the revelation of God's glory! There is NO coercion in THAT scenario, but indeed, coercion abounds in the "confession wrung involuntarily from the lips of rebels" notion which is held by most Adventists as the truth!!!

Therefore, putting all these pieces together, the only scenario that really makes sense here (in my opinion) indeed seems to be the one Casey Butler is putting forward.

[Gerr]

Sorry, but you missed some pieces before drawing your conclusion.

First & foremost, the context of of Isa 45:23 is God addressing the remnant who have "escaped from the nations." 45:20 NKJ.

And Isaiah, whom you are quoting, had this to say: "For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT of them will return..."

And Paul quoting the same passage puts it a little differently: "Though the number of the children if Israel be as the sand of the sea, the REMNANT will be SAVED."

Secondly, confessing that Jesus is the Christ does not necessarily imply that the one confessing is a saved person. "And the demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, 'You are the Christ, the Son of God!'" Lk 4:41 NKJ.

James puts it very well this way, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble!" Jam 2:19 NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Hi Robert,

You keep digging for death in the Bible - have you tried compiling the verses that confirm all will be saved?

Knowing Jesus as you do in your heart, which verses are metaphorical, the "all are saved" ones or the "hell, death, and destruction" ones?

I'll respond to your verses tomorrow... Have a wonderful Sabbath.

God bless you,

Casey

Casey, the problem is that almost invariably, for every promise of life to the repentant & converted, there is also the promise of death to those who do not.

For example: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,...... against such there is no law.

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication,.....heresies, envy, murders,....and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that [color:blue]who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22,23,19-21 NKJ.

"..if a wicked man turns from all his sins....he shall live." Ez 18:21,22

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity...shall he live? .....because of them he shall die." Ez 18:24 NKJ

"Though your sins are like scarlet,

They shall be as white as snow;

Though they are red like crimson,

They shall be as wool.

IF you are willing and obedient,

You shall eat the good of the land;

BUT IF you refuse and rebel,

You shall be devoured by the sword." Isa 1:18-20 NKJ

You will find warnings & promises such as these over & over again. You can't just pick & choose the ones that you like.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Robert: "For by grace you have been saved [past tense] through faith [present tense]."

Most interesting,Rob. Is the word "faith" one of Paul's many participals, a gerund? It is not a noun? If so I wonder why the translations don't say "through believing?"

Of course, faith for us didn't occur at the cross. We weren't even born, so it has to happen in our present. Excuse the dumb question.

While "faith" is neither a participle nor a gerund nor a verb in this instance, I agree with Robert that it has to be a present experience of the believer. If the believer is not found faithful (an on-going/present experience) but is instead found faithless, he is lost.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Quote:

And did you notice? He says he is not completely converted yet claims to have the mind of Christ. Figure that one out.

Gerry

Was Paul completely converted? Was John, was Peter? Has any man on earth been completely converted except Jesus Christ?

If you're completely converted, why do you doubt my salvation and your own? Why do you still sin, assuming you're not perfect?

And what is your definition of conversion?

My understanding of Biblical conversion is just what the Heb & Gk imply, i.e. a change of direction by turning around. I'm heading to hell & destruction, Then through the promptings of the Holy Spirit I change my mind about where I want to go (repentance), and turn around (conversion) and start on a journey towards heaven.

There is nothing in this change of direction that implies sinlessness or perfection. You are either head to hell or headed to heaven.

Was Paul completely converted? The Aposlte who said, "I know whom I have believed?" 2 Tim 1:12. The one who said, "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race. I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the drown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 2 Ti 4:688 NKJ.

Was Peter completely converted? The one who requested to be crucified upside down for his allegiance to Christ?

Gerry

[David Koot]

this bowing and confessing in and of itself fulfills the criteria given above for determining a spirit to be from God. Were this bowing and confessing wrung involuntarily from unconverted rebels somehow, it would violate the scriptural test for determining them to be of anti-Christ spirit.

But that has nothing to do with conversion. Nor does it speak of conversion. There is another option which you haven't mentioned--that the lost confess the justice of God, and the Lordship of Christ, because they see that they were wrong, and God was right. Yet, that does not result in their conversion. They knew, throughout their lives, what was right and wrong. They had heard, felt the Holy Spirit pleading with them. As Paul points out in Romans 1 & 2, they knew from the testimoy of nature, from their conscience, from the Word, but they still CHOSE evil. That hasn't changed now.

KIM that what they have just been presented with, in the great white throne judgment, is the record of their lives, of their choices. They admit, they acknowledge, that God is just and right, and that they have chosen death. The unseen Watcher recorded the choices they made, and in heaven, God ratified those choices. Now, they see them replayed, and all pretense of excuse is stripped away.

At any rate, as Gerry pointed out, confessing Christ as Lord does not, standing alone, make one converted. The devils did that in Jesus' day, and false teachers abound who do that today. There is more to the picture than that.