CNN's "Racism in America" surprised me.

[lazarus]

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/12/19/btsc.zahn/index.html

I don't really bother to watch cable TV specials because I don't expect there to be much that is productive or even interesting. I was pleasantly surprised when flicking through the channels and saw Paula Zhan's Racism in America special

There was a mixed audience of young and old, black and which, I guess republicans and democrats too. I wasn't the usual discouraging battle. There was much talk of the sucess in some parts of the US that has come through dialogue and interaction. There were white's asking for forgiveness (for what their people had done) and blacks reaching out to whites.

The basic idea I got from it was the need to talk openly and honestly with a view to understanding, justice and healing.

Wonder if our church could learn something?

[Dr. Shane]

Well I am white and have never done anything racist in my life to ask for forgiveness for. I grew up as a poor white boy in society that favored blacks, hispanics and native americans with college scholorships, entrance exams and job opportunities. I live in an area where white people make up only 10% of the population and have found success in spite of the color of my skin. Oh, and BTW, no one has appoligized to me or offered to pay any of the student loans I had to take out to get through college.

[lazarus]

Well I am white and have never done anything racist in my life to ask for forgiveness for. I grew up as a poor white boy in society that favored blacks, hispanics and native americans with college scholorships, entrance exams and job opportunities. I live in an area where white people make up only 10% of the population and have found success in spite of the color of my skin. Oh, and BTW, no one has appoligized to me or offered to pay any of the student loans I had to take out to get through college.

you experience is the kind of experience that would be heard in the kind of dialogue that would be helpful. It may help to heal some of the hurt you may or may not have.

The interesting thing is that you may have done something racist that you are not aware of and its through interaction and dialogue that some deep seated attitudes are indeed racist and need to be forgiven. This is true for me as much as you.

[John317]

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/12/19/btsc.zahn/index.html

...There was a mixed audience of young and old, black and which, I guess republicans and democrats too. I wasn't the usual discouraging battle. There was much talk of the sucess in some parts of the US that has come through dialogue and interaction. There were white's asking for forgiveness (for what their people had done) and blacks reaching out to whites.

The basic idea I got from it was the need to talk openly and honestly with a view to understanding, justice and healing.

Wonder if our church could learn something?

I'm very interested in racial issues and discussions about race.

I think there needs to be a complete airing out of racial baggage people carry with them and are afraid of expressing for fear of being called racist. I've seen that term used as a way of keeping people from telling their viewpoint or experiences honestly. Most people don't want to be called "racist" and consequently will say and do many things just in order to avoid it.

There is prejudice, or bias, everywhere. I know blacks who don't like Mexicans. I know "hispanics" who don't like blacks. I know whites who don't like blacks. I know blacks who don't like whites. It's everywhere and embedded in all cultures. It's not a black or white thing, nor a brown thing. It's a human thing. It can no longer be assumed that the person experiencing racial prejudice is a person of a particular color. The truth is it can be anyone of any race.

I think everyone, of every color and race and nationality, should be able to feel good about who and what they are. All should be encouraged to appreciate and understand their racial, cultural, and historical roots. But all also ought to be encouraged to appreciate and understand the roots of others as well. The better we know someone else's heritage, the less likely we will be to hold racist or prejudiced attitudes toward them.

The best way to change the church's attitude about race is by everyone's remembering and practicing Martin Luther's King's idea of judging people not on the basis of the color of their skin but on the content of a person's character.

[John317]

As a student in a black history class, we were taught that since "racism" is based on the economic power structure, it is impossible for blacks to be truly "racist" in the classic sense of that term. Malcolm X advocated this view and so did Eldridge Cleaver, at least in his book, Soul on Ice. Do you share this view of the definition of racism?

[Dr. Shane]

What about a hispanic boss of a [errrr] white employee?

[Amelia]

Quote:

As a student in a black history class, we were taught that since "racism" is based on the economic power structure, it is impossible for blacks to be truly "racist" in the classic sense of that term.

I have heard of racisim within the black community. With the lower economic blacks seeing the higher economic blacks as more white. The higher on the ladder you climb the more white you become. And apparently that's a bad thing. A black can't truly be black unless everyone struggles on the same economic level. (this doesnt apply to celebrities or atheletes)

[John317]

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As a student in a black history class, we were taught that since "racism" is based on the economic power structure, it is impossible for blacks to be truly "racist" in the classic sense of that term.

I have heard of racisim within the black community. With the lower economic blacks seeing the higher economic blacks as more white. The higher on the ladder you climb the more white you become. And apparently that's a bad thing. A black can't truly be black unless everyone struggles on the same economic level. (this doesnt apply to celebrities or atheletes)

I know that some black kids don't want to have a reputation of being too good a student because other black kids may accuse them of trying to be "crackers" (whites). It is suicidal for black culture for people to think this way since it is obviously detrimental for the progress of a race to follow such values.

What you say is true about everyone having to struggle on the same economic level in order to be recognized by many as truly black. I've been told many times that Condie Rice is not really a black person. The same is often said about former secretary of state Colin Powell.

[Dr. Shane]

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It is suicidal for black culture for people to think this way since it is obviously detrimental for the progress of a race

This phenomenon is not a "black" issue since black people in Africa and Carrebien countries do not accuse smart blacks of being "crackers". This is an American sub-culture issue.

A good friend of mine from Kenya was in a bus station listening to country music on his radio when an American black man came up to him and asked what was wrong with him before informing him that black folks don't listen to music like that.

[Amelia]

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black folks don't listen to music like that.

I'd like to see him tell that to Charley Pride.

But Shane, I think we were all talking about Amercian race issues.

[John317]

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It is suicidal for black culture for people to think this way since it is obviously detrimental for the progress of a race

This phenomenon is not a "black" issue since black people in Africa and Carrebien countries do not accuse smart blacks of being "crackers". This is an American sub-culture issue.

A good friend of mine from Kenya was in a bus station listening to country music on his radio when an American black man came up to him and asked what was wrong with him before informing him that black folks don't listen to music like that.

You're perfectly right of course. I shouldn't assume everyone will realize I am talking about American blacks.

I have worked with quite a few blacks from Africa. All except one of these have been Seventh-day Adventists because I work fairly close to Loma Linda, a large Adventist center. I've noticed they have different customs and think differently about a lot of things compared to American blacks.

[John317]

I must say that I really admire and love the works of some great American writers who happen to be black. Their stories offer insight into what it has been like for many blacks growing up and living in America. I think one of the best American novels ever written is Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Others are by Zora Neale Hurston (Their Eyes Were Watching God); Richard Wright (Native Son); James Baldwin (Go Tell It On the Mountain); Toni Morrison (Sula); and Alice Walker (The Color Purple).

I first became aware of the civil rights movement when my father read to the family portions of Black Like Me by John Howard Griffin. It's the story of what it was like to be Negro in the Deep South, written by a white author who chemically changed the color of his skin. His story came as a great shock to me, who knew little of the world at that time outside of Loma Linda. About the same time I began listening to radio reports about the civil rights marches that Dr. King was leading in places such as Montgomery and Selma, Alabama. I remember well the summer of 1964 when 3 civil rights workers were murdered in Mississippi and how we waited for their bodies to be found. They were discovered finally about the time of the Republican Convention in San Francisco. I admired people like Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge Cleaver, H. Rap Brown, Huey P. Newton, and later, Malcolm X. Afterward I would go on to join a radical student movement, organize street demonstrations, and meet Eldridge Cleaver, author of Soul On Ice.

I've worked now for the last twenty years mostly with black and "hispanic" kids, ages 13 to 18, who are wards of the courts for various offenses ranging from rape and robbery to attempted murder. Most of my fellow staff are black.

[lazarus]

As a student in a black history class, we were taught that since "racism" is based on the economic power structure, it is impossible for blacks to be truly "racist" in the classic sense of that term. Malcolm X advocated this view and so did Eldridge Cleaver, at least in his book, Soul on Ice. Do you share this view of the definition of racism?

I have alot of sympathy for that definition but I seldom use it because it only makes a discussion with a white person more diffucult becasue there is and has been very little understanding or appreciation of how racism has affected black people.

Racism is the belief that one race, because of some inate characteristics, is superiour to another. The US constitution asserts that humans are endowed with inaliable rights. these rights were denied to blacks simply because they were considered to be inferior. This racism was part of American LAW. Thats why many black people find white American lofty declarations about the land of the free so absurd!.

In general, a black man/women who has a problem with whites does not have the problem because they think that white people are inferior but because they are resentlful of what has been done/is being to black people. This black person is being prejudiced (has pre-judged the white person because of past/present experience)

In general, a white person who has a problem with blacks may very well feel superior because of history, current/present experiences. They will be prejudiced (pre-judge) a black person they meet because of their past/present experience.

In general, the key difference is the feeling/perception of superiority. Of course my thoughts are broad generalisations and a reflection of what I THINK is a common view among black people.

[lazarus]

I've been told many times that Condie Rice is not really a black person. The same is often said about former secretary of state Colin Powell.

This is not so much to do with money and education and success. Its do to with the fact that these people simply do not talk about the issues that affect black people in general. Rice/Powell have never been heard to speak out again racism, economic disparities etc.

[lazarus]

This phenomenon is not a "black" issue since black people in Africa and Carrebien countries do not accuse smart blacks of being "crackers". This is an American sub-culture issue.

There is a small minority of African Americans who think this way

[qutoe]A good friend of mine from Kenya was in a bus station listening to country music on his radio when an American black man came up to him and asked what was wrong with him before informing him that black folks don't listen to music like that.

what does that one incident tell you about African American men????

One thing I have noticed about discussions about race on this forum is that the discussion often morphs from a discussion about the race issue to a discussion about the negative aspects of African American culture. I wonder why?

I have also found over and over again that white Americans have many positive things to say about non-American blacks but often negaive things to say about African American blacks.

Many white Americans overty change their behiour towards me when I speak because they then realise I'm not from the US. I'm a differnt kind of black.

The racial divide in the US is so much wider than I expected it to be. I guess there has never been any real open discussion, no forgiveness, no repentance, therefore no healing, just festering wounds.

[Dr. Shane]

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. The US constitution asserts that humans are endowed with inaliable rights.

I think the Declaration of Independance is being confused with the Constitution.

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these rights were denied to blacks simply because they were considered to be inferior.

Well, there is a bit of spin there. Free black men that were property owns had the same rights as free white men that were propety owners. Many states only allowed property owners the right to vote. Not all states allowed slavery and the United States was an alliance of several states. The federal government then was not nearly the same as it is today. Prior to the Civil War, the states maintained a great amount of autonomy from the federal government.

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This racism was part of American LAW. Thats why many black people find white American lofty declarations about the land of the free so absurd!.

Well, as I explained, the racism was in the individual states and some states were not racist. Furthermore, these rights were also denied to many others, like women and indentured servants. The blacks that believe that it is absurd to view America as the land of the free hold that position because they have been sold a bill of goods by black politicians seeking to stay in power. America is the land of oportunity. No nation on Earth has a clean record on civil rights but America has an incredible story of civil rights progress. American blacks should be taught to be proud of the nation they belong to.

[Dr. Shane]

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I have also found over and over again that white Americans have many positive things to say about non-American blacks but often negaive things to say about African American blacks.

This is easy to understand. American whites, asians and hispanics see all the good and bad blacks in American culture. Most of the non-American blacks we see are the cream of the crop. They are the educated or ambitious that come here looking for a better life. Thus we are more impressed by these, for a very logical reason.

[lazarus]

Forgive my clumsy treatment of US history....here we go:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

If all men were created equal then at that time the reasoning must have been that the other "men" were not considered to be men. Clearly the "men" mentioned were white men.

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The blacks that believe that it is absurd to view America as the land of the free hold that position because they have been sold a bill of goods by black politicians seeking to stay in power.

Do you place MLK in that category? Who else would you put in this category? For those who have not been free, America has not been the land of the free. Is that not an obvious undeniable fact.

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American blacks should be taught to be proud of the nation they belong to.

Taught! taught! !!!!!!!!!!! Wow!

Almost all the African-Americans I have met since living here are proud to be Americans. They don't need to be taught to be proud. Because they do not see America as most white people do it does it mean that they are not proud. There may have been abuse in "your" family but despite it all you are still proud of and love your family, dysfunction and all!

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I have also found over and over again that white Americans have many positive things to say about non-American blacks but often negaive things to say about African American blacks.

Quote:

This is easy to understand. American whites, asians and hispanics see all the good and bad blacks in American culture. Most of the non-American blacks we see are the cream of the crop. They are the educated or ambitious that come here looking for a better life. Thus we are more impressed by these, for a very logical reason

My point was about white Americans not asians or hispanics unless you consider asians and hispanics to be white! Of course white americans see the good and bad but why do some in these discussions seem to always dwell on the bad. I never hear the good mentioned. There seems to be relish in pointing out the bad. It seems like racist stereo-typing to me.

[John317]

...Many white Americans overty change their behiour towards me when I speak because they then realise I'm not from the US. I'm a differnt kind of black.

I try to treat everyone the same, whether the person is American or non-American black. Yet their attitudes are so obviously different towards me, a white, that I cannot help but respond differently towards them. It's not something I want to do but it happens just as it is natural for you treat someone who likes you or is very friendly differently than you do someone who seems to dislike you or is not as friendly. It's true, too, that you can treat someone differently based on some expectations.

Quote:

The racial divide in the US is so much wider than I expected it to be. I guess there has never been any real open discussion, no forgiveness, no repentance, therefore no healing, just festering wounds.

Frankly, I think a lot of the problem is that too many people hold grudges. I've never done anything at all bad to any blacks, even to those that did terrible things to me. Nor do I blame all blacks for those things or think other blacks ought to apologize to me for what someone else did. Yet it seems to me that blacks do that-- they seem to want me or other whites alive today to pay for, or offer an apology for, what Americans did to them long before I was born or for things none of us had any control over.

The festering wounds sometimes are the result of the fact that any time whites express an opinion that blacks don't like, blacks use the race card and start accusing the whites of being racist or of being bigoted. Instead of arguing the points logically, race becomes an issue and people get accussed of being prejudiced. I saw this a lot during the OJ trial. Right after OJ was arrested, in fact only two days afterward, one black I worked with said that OJ was right to do it because his ex-wife wasn't taking care of business like she should have been. Then he changed his view and said that the police framed him. Later he said OJ didn't do it but OJ knew who did, and then he said he thought OJ's son had done it, and OJ was just protecting his boy. I was often the only white there at work, and when I said I thought there was no doubt OJ did it, I was told I thought that way because I was white and racist just like the white cops who framed OJ.

I'm not bitter about that at all and I don't want anyone's apology. I am only trying to give you a picture of what goes down.

My experience is that if a white guy is being verbally or even physically attacked by a group of blacks, a black person seldom if ever will come to the white's defense. It seems to me they don't want to be seen as betraying other blacks. They feel they have to stand together even if it means they are in the wrong. Whether they are wrong or right isn't important. What's important is that they are defending each other and are together.

I don't think that way. I care about who is right. Once when I was in the army stockade, a race riot broke out in the pool hall over the TV. Blacks wanted to watch football and whites wanted to watch Bonanza. I personally didnt care; it all seemed so stupid to me. Anyway, a white Marine came to me and asked me if I was going to fight with them against the blacks. I said no. He said they would beat my a-- if I didn't. I said you do what you have to do and I will do what I have to do. Well, I stayed out of the bathrooms and got out in the open where everybody could see me. My Buddhist, white friend, though, he went into the bathroom and I watched him come out all bloody after he refused to fight with whites against the blacks.

I never saw blacks do that-- defy other blacks for a white guy. I know because I've been in plenty of trouble before with groups of blacks and never once saw a black stand up for me or other whites against blacks. They've just stood around and laughed and snickered while stuff went on. I am not denying it's ever happened; just that I think it must be very rare. I won't go into all the things 'cause they don't belong in CA anyway. Sometimes it was sorta my fault, I guess, because I put myself in places where I ought to've known better. But still no one ever tried to help me in those situations, and sometimes it happened near porches where lots of people were sitting and watching everything. One time I was robbed by a group of about 6 young blacks while walking down a street in a black neighborhood of San Francisco. It was only yards from a house where a large black man was sitting on his front steps. This robbery was in process for about 10 minutes while I tried to talk my way out of it. Finally the guys did give me back most of my things, but that man sat there and watched and didn't utter a peep. Maybe he was afraid to, fearful that he would become a target himself. I realize that well enough now but if it was me, I'd have said or done something. Maybe that's the difference between us that I won't ever fully understand.

The bottom line for me is that there is political correctness when it comes to talking about race, and then there is reality. As far as my experience is concerned one is as far from the other as the moon is from the sun.

[Dr. Shane]

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Clearly the "men" mentioned were white men.

No, that is not clear at all. Many white men came to the colonies as endentured servants and did not have these rights. Black men in some of the northern states were free men and did have the same rights. The group that was most clearly excluded was women.

It is also noteworthy that the black slaves in America were sold to slave traders by other blacks in Africa. Who is holding these blacks in Africa accountable for selling their fellow countrymen like cattle?

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Do you place MLK in that category?

Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian pastor, not a politician.

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My point was about white Americans not asians or hispanics unless you consider asians and hispanics to be white!

Perhaps this is a newsflash but hispanics and asians have pretty much the same preception of the black community as whites do. Please remember, I speak as a member of the hispanic community.

The church can do more to bring harmony between the races than the government. The work that needs to be done is our work, that of the church - at least in America. The US government has made awesome progress in civil rights that should make each of us proud to live here and honored to be able to be a citizen. America's past is not its present. It is a fantastic place to live, the home of freedom and land of opportunity. The rest of what needs to be done is up to us, not our politicians.

[John317]

Forgive my clumsy treatment of US history....here we go:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

If all men were created equal then at that time the reasoning must have been that the other "men" were not considered to be men. Clearly the "men" mentioned were white men.

Let me offer a few facts as I learned them from a black professor (a former member of the Black Panther Party) in a college course called "History of the Negro in America." You will see it wasn't that whites were necessarily against other races of men, at least it didn't start out that way. And you will also see that whites do not have a monopoly on slavery, as popular as that view might be.

It will no doubt come as something of a surprise to some people to learn that blacks were not the first choice in the making of slaves by the colonists in America. That distinction was reserved for the whites. There were hundreds of white "indentured" servants in the colonies almost from the very beginning, and these grew into the thousands before it was all over. These would contract to work so long a period in exchange, say, for ship's passage to the colonies. Their treatment was sometimes harsh and they could not always depend on their work period to end at the agreed upon time. The problem is that when they ran away, these whites tended to be able to work their way into the population so as to be hard to recognize as a run-away indentured servant. This situation, understandably, made their masters very upset. It didn't take long for these masters to look for someone who would be willing (or even unwilling) to take the place of these run-away whites.

Therefore, since labor was needed, it was decided to force the Indians-- now known as American native peoples-- into slavery. (Something a lot of people would just as soon forget is the fact that the natives of North America often attacked each other and made slaves of one another's women, long before the coming of the English or the French to American shores.) It was figured that the Indians would be easier to spot if they ran away and could therefore be returned to their rightful owners without too much loss of labor. The problem, however, was that the Indians weren't very cooperative. It was soon discovered that Indians would simply refuse to work and sit or lay down and never get up. They would die right there rather than work.

So another solution to the labor shortage was sought for. It was soon found-- in the Negroes of Africa. Africans were fighting each other and when one tribe fought another they would take captives. They made slaves of them, too, but when they discovered that white slave-traders would pay for the slaves, it became obvious that selling them was more economical than making them their own slaves. (It is theorized today that the reason that many blacks in Africa put things in their ears and lips to make themselves look ugly was in order to keep themselves off the slave-block, the idea being that no one would want to buy such a hideous looking slave.)

So that is what happened. Negro slaves from Africa were soon going to market all over Europe and to the Americas as well. They were awfully good workers, too, strong, and robust, and wouldn't lie down and die on the spot like the Indians.

Then something happened. It was found that the best crop in the South was cotton and cotton required a great deal of cheap labor. Negroes were perfect for the job. They worked hard, didn't run away often, hardly ever rebelled, and even seemed to have a sense of loyalty for their masters.

In order to keep a balanced and totally accurate view of things, it needs to realized that there were free blacks who owned slaves. Also, during the American Civil War, there were some few thousand slaves and former slaves who fought as soldiers in the Confederate Army. These things do not make slavery any less heinous a crime, but they need to be kept in mind in order to help us be completely honest with history and with each other.

One last point that should be remembered is that blacks were made to be viewed as subhuman because that was the only way for whites, who had a conscience, to stand to be able to treat other human beings as animals. For blacks were sold as animals and bred for strength like beasts too. Music, story telling, and sex were the popular ways they passed the time between sundown to sunrise. In this way the Negro race was brutalized on America's shores for well over two hundred years.

[John317]

Forgive my clumsy treatment of US history....here we go:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

If all men were created equal then at that time the reasoning must have been that the other "men" were not considered to be men. Clearly the "men" mentioned were white men.

I don't know if it makes any difference but the 13 Colonies did debate the issue of whether to prohibit slavery in the United States. The reason they didn't make it illegal was that if they had done that, there were some states, such as those in the deep South, who would not have joined the others in their fight against our mother country, England. It was thought that it was more important to fight for independence than try to free the slaves. They could not have freed the slaves, in any case, in those states that might have decided to withdraw from the confederation. So it was best for them at that point to concentrate on the war against England.

Another important point is that the original Declaration of Independence, as Thomas Jefferson planned it, contained condemnations of England for its slave-trade. These were deleted, however, because it was not thought prudent to alienate or anger certain states who had an invested interest in slavery and might therefore decide not to join the war for Independence. At that time, it needs to be remembered, the choice seemed to be either freedom from England or a failed attempt to liberate the slaves. There simply was not the interest at that point in going to war to free slaves. We wouldn't reach that point for almost another hundred years, and even then, the Civil War would be fought largely in order to keep the union, and only incidentally, at least for a large portion of the people, in order to free the slaves.

[lazarus]

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Frankly, I think a lot of the problem is that too many people hold grudges. I've never done anything at all bad to any blacks, even to those that did terrible things to me. Nor do I blame all blacks for those things or think other blacks ought to apologize to me for what someone else did. Yet it seems to me that blacks do that-- they seem to want me or other whites alive today to pay for, or offer an apology for, what Americans did to them long before I was born or for things none of us had any control over.

I'm not sure how old you are, I am 40. If my dad had gone to the US instead of the Uk he would have faced segregation. That kind of blatant legal racism was in my lifetime. Some of the police officers, lawmen, legislators and pastors that supported that system are still alive. This is not the distant pst we are talking about. We are dealing with systematic, intentional, vicious racism on the part of the majority of white people in the USA. There is a corporate guilt that is rarely acknowledged. There is not the same remose as expressed by the german people concerning WW2. There is a kind of "get over it mentality" There collective trauma that has been experienced by black people is neither acknowledged or understood.

My guess is that African Americans understand that their freedom had to be fought for. It had to be snatched from tight unyeilding fists. It there was not the unhieval of the civil rights movement I my sone would not have been able to be born in Washington Adventist Hospital simply becasue he was black.

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The festering wounds sometimes are the result of the fact that any time whites express an opinion that blacks don't like, blacks use the race card and start accusing the whites of being racist or of being bigoted. Instead of arguing the points logically, race becomes an issue and people get accussed of being prejudiced.

Its quite interesting i've hardly ever had a discussion on racism where I white person has admitted to being racist or even concretely acknowledged the reality of racism in America. There's almost an inability to egage in a discussion about it without being accused of playing the race card etc. By the way i'm not accusing you of doing those things. I am also not saying you are a racist either.

There are always going be disagreements about race and OJ is a fantastic example of how black folks deep down just wanted to see one of their own "get off" like so many white boys have gotten away with stuff. Thats the brutal truth of it.

I'm sorry that you had that experience. Perhaps you can understand a life time of battling illogical assertions about black people. Having to prove that you as good as the white man.

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My experience is that if a white guy is being verbally or even physically attacked by a group of blacks, a black person seldom if ever will come to the white's defense. It seems to me they don't want to be seen as betraying other blacks. They feel they have to stand together even if it means they are in the wrong. Whether they are wrong or right isn't important. What's important is that they are defending each other and are together.

My guess is that there many black men who also have experiences where white men did not come to their aid. I can't see many white men in a fight going to the aid of the lone black man. I could be wrong.

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The bottom line for me is that there is political correctness when it comes to talking about race, and then there is reality. As far as my experience is concerned one is as far from the other as the moon is from the sun.

I'm not sure what the above means by way of political correctness but I'm so glad that white folks have to ultra careful about what they say and how they say it. That is progess. Gone are the days when a white man can call me "boy" and "[theN-word]" and think nothing of it. Its wonderful that my son does not have to words and attitudes that should be best left in the mind.

But my basic point is that every time I speak to whites about racism in America it wierd how the converation ends up at the same point. Its blacks who have the problem and we (white people) are the victims!

[John317]

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My point was about white Americans not asians or hispanics unless you consider asians and hispanics to be white!

Perhaps this is a newsflash but hispanics and asians have pretty much the same preception of the black community as whites do. Please remember, I speak as a member of the hispanic community.

The truth is that "hispanics" and whites are almost always one side in arguments or fights and blacks on another. The difference is that both hispanics and blacks are confrontational types as a whole, whereas whites will more often than not try to let the police work out problems. Both blacks and hispanics will usually confront one another. In prisons it is white and hispanics against blacks. Same in the high schools. By the way, there is a lot of anger on both sides there.

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The church can do more to bring harmony between the races than the government. The work that needs to be done is our work, that of the church - at least in America. The US government has made awesome progress in civil rights that should make each of us proud to live here and honored to be able to be a citizen. America's past is not its present. It is a fantastic place to live, the home of freedom and land of opportunity. The rest of what needs to be done is up to us, not our politicians.

I agree with you, but it would be good if black leaders in both church and outside the church would stand up and condemn things that are bad for the black community, such as drugs, crime, so many babies born out of wedlock and without a father, terrible rap lyrics that encourage violence and negative views of women, the use of niggah to each other, a demeaning word, etc. Those things would be a start. Encourage moral values, work ethics, and church involvement, as well as school and study, instead of sports. Most of the boys I work with don't even have a respect for people such as Rosa Parks. When I told a black kid that someone robbed Rosa Parks, he told me he would have robbed her too. He said he didn't care who she was. This may not be representative of black children, but I think it is typical of far too many, at least of those I see on a daily basis. The counties pay between $8,000 to $12,000 thousand dollars a month for us to house and keep them. Most do not have fathers.

I love my country and therefore I want to see black people do well and contribute in making my country better. It doesn't do my country any good for a large segment of its population to fail and be unable to assimulate, costing it billions of dollars every year in prisons and welfare.

In my work with black and hispanic youth, I have noticed that hispanic kids generally are polite and say thank you. Black youth very seldom say thank you, unless they are told to say it, and then very often they will say something else entirely. It's the difference in the way they are brought up.

[lazarus]

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No, that is not clear at all. Many white men came to the colonies as endentured servants and did not have these rights. Black men in some of the northern states were free men and did have the same rights. The group that was most clearly excluded was women.

That was a wierd statement. Are you really suggesting that white women were more clearly discriminated against that blacks in America.

The 15th amendment addressed the needs of which sector of the population, primarily. The voting rights act give the franchise to who primarily?

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Who is holding these blacks in Africa accountable for selling their fellow countrymen like cattle?

They didn't sell their fellow countrymen. Africa is not a country.

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Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian pastor, not a politician.

In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men - yes, black men as well as white men - would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check that has come back marked "insufficient funds."

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Perhaps this is a newsflash but hispanics and asians have pretty much the same preception of the black community as whites do.

What is that perception?

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Please remember, I speak as a member of the hispanic community.

just out of interest do you speak as a member of the white community also?

The government was prestty much forced to do what it did in terms of civil rights. The country was in turmoil. True credit goes the civil right leaders

Its government , the church, charities that will bring greater harmony. The SDA church has some ways to go. Perhaps setting the example by bringing the black and white sections of the church together would help.