CNN's "Racism in America" surprised me.

[Woody]

Lazarus ... The County with 150 blacks was in Oregon ... not known for a lot of black people. My grandfather immigrated from Switzerland but I have no idea how many Blacks live there. Not sure what you are getting at.

Redwood

[Dr. Shane]

lazarus:

Quote:

I missed that. [white people admitting racism]

Allow me to highlight some comments made.

John 317:

I know whites who don't like blacks.

I remember well the summer of 1964 when 3 civil rights workers were murdered in Mississippi and how we waited for their bodies to be found.

Negro slaves from Africa were soon going to market all over Europe and to the Americas as well… One last point that should be remembered is that blacks were made to be viewed as subhuman because that was the only way for whites, who had a conscience, to stand to be able to treat other human beings as animals.

About that same time I met a bunch white kids that I started hanging out with. I broke company with them, though, after a few days because I didn't appreciate their anti-black attutudes. I had an argument with them over the issue of slavery and how blacks were treated in the South still at that time. In those days I was very passionate about social justice.

Shane:

[segregation] would have only been true in certain southern states.

While many of the northern states gave black men freedom, most of the black population was in the south.

Racism still exists, no doubt. And there is more than one breed of racism… Whites that think they are better because of the education or family upbringing, etc.

Racism is still alive and well and while racial minorities do have an advantage at getting into schools and hired on at large corporations, they still face prejudice when looking for work in small companies or seeking to rent a house or apartment in certain neighborhoods. I don't want to diminish the racism that minorities still have to deal with.

Amelia:

While the recently freed slaves could and did register to vote many states adopted laws of prohibiting them in other ways from voting. Like being able to read, write and gender.

[Amelia]

Quote:

I hear you! I often wonder if my attempts are futile. This latest discourse was perhaps a lesson in that.

Laz, just what were you trying to attempt? That racism is alive and well? Yes, it is. That it's alive and well on CA? It appears it is in some forms. That we need to communicate more? I would be the first to say, yeah we do. I suppose I could appologise for the slave trade purpetrated by other white people, but that would be wrong since I'm not related to those white people and my family hadn't even thought of immigrating at that time. So what else would you like this white woman to admit? Cause I'll admit it now and then stop so brother Bishop isn't bothered by myself any longer.

[Woody]

Laz ... As far as the issue of slavery goes ... It should be noted that it was the Africans that caused the slavery. The tribal kings were slaughtering hundreds of thousands of those of the weak tribes. Then the idea of selling them to America came. And so instead of just killing off all the enemy Blacks ... who these tribal kings where using as mortor for their fenses ... they decided to SELL them and make a profit. It the blacks slaves were not sold to America and other places ... they would have been KILLED. There is no question about it.

Of course those times were different. The slaves should have been treated better. No question. But this is NOT a race issue. Like the previous post indicated ... many other races and nationalities were treated worse than the Blacks.

What ever happened. Let us get over it and move on.

I believe in a color blind society but the Blacks do not want that. They want revenge. They want discrimination against the Whites and so far they are getting it.

If you want equality then I am all for it. But I will not be discriminated against so that you can be happy.

[Dr. Shane]

Black, conservative commentator and economic professor, Walter Williams has viewpoint.

Slavery reparations

Quote:

Slavery was an abomination. There's no argument, based on morality, that can justify slavery and its attendant evils. Indeed, were it possible, slave traders and slave owners should be forced to make reparations to those whom they enslaved. A similar case cannot be made for reparation payments to slave descendants.

Quote:

Slavery was an abomination. There's no argument, based on morality, that can justify slavery and its attendant evils. Indeed, were it possible, slave traders and slave owners should be forced to make reparations to those whom they enslaved. A similar case cannot be made for reparation payments to slave descendants.

Quote:

Illegitimacy among blacks today is 70 percent. Only 41 percent of black males 15 years and older are married, and only 36 percent of black children live in two-parent families. These and other indicators of family instability and its accompanying socioeconomic factors such as high crime, welfare dependency and poor educational achievement is claimed to be the legacy and vestiges of slavery, for which black Americans are due reparations. Let's look at it.

In 1940, illegitimacy among blacks was 19 percent. From 1890 to 1940, blacks had a marriage rate slightly higher than whites. As of 1950, 64 percent black males 15 years and older were married, compared to today's 41 percent.

Quote:

Interestingly enough, reparations advocates are not demanding that white people be taxed in order to send checks out to individual black people. What they're demanding is for money to be put into a reparations fund from which they decide who receives how much for what purpose. For me, that has just as much appeal as the Rev. Leroy's call for people to send their money to him and he'll send it to G-d.

Ouch, Walter! Of course, this is the same guy that says the slave trade was the best thing that ever happened to him. Meaning, while slavery was terrible for his ancestors, he has benefitted personally by being born in the US which would have never happened except for the slave trade.

[lazarus]

Laz, just what were you trying to attempt?

Quote:

I don't really bother to watch cable TV specials because I don't expect there to be much that is productive or even interesting. I was pleasantly surprised when flicking through the channels and saw Paula Zhan's Racism in America special

There was a mixed audience of young and old, black and which, I guess republicans and democrats too. I wasn't the usual discouraging battle. There was much talk of the sucess in some parts of the US that has come through dialogue and interaction. There were white's asking for forgiveness (for what their people had done) and blacks reaching out to whites.

The basic idea I got from it was the need to talk openly and honestly with a view to understanding, justice and healing.

Wonder if our church could learn something?

Or on the other hand I could be a mean black guy whose trying to stirr up racial hatred on C/A!

[lazarus]

Laz ... As far as the issue of slavery goes ... It should be noted that it was the Africans that caused the slavery. The tribal kings were slaughtering hundreds of thousands of those of the weak tribes. Then the idea of selling them to America came. And so instead of just killing off all the enemy Blacks ... who these tribal kings where using as mortor for their fenses ... they decided to SELL them and make a profit. It the blacks slaves were not sold to America and other places ... they would have been KILLED. There is no question about it.

Of course those times were different. The slaves should have been treated better. No question. But this is NOT a race issue. Like the previous post indicated ... many other races and nationalities were treated worse than the Blacks.

What ever happened. Let us get over it and move on.

I believe in a color blind society but the Blacks do not want that. They want revenge. They want discrimination against the Whites and so far they are getting it.

If you want equality then I am all for it. But I will not be discriminated against so that you can be happy.

Redwood

I find your posts refreshing. I'm not being sacrastic here. I like your honesty. I get so ehead of myself with exitment and therefore I thought you meant country as opposed to county in your previous posts. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks Shane!

There are some accounts that give a different accounts of live before the Atlandic slave trade.

It was common that after a war between tribes slaves were taken. Captives were not killed on mass as you suggest. With the arrival of European slavers tribes saw it as oppotunity to make money.

Read the account by Equiano.

Quote:

The slaves should have been treated better. No question. But this is NOT a race issue. Like the previous post indicated ... many other races and nationalities were treated worse than the Blacks.

OK!

Quote:

I believe in a color blind society but the Blacks do not want that. They want revenge. They want discrimination against the Whites and so far they are getting it.

If you want equality then I am all for it. But I will not be discriminated against so that you can be happy.

I tried to type several responses but in then end I had to delete them! Thanks for your opinion Red.

[there buster]

It appears that you equate "open and honest" with caucasians asking for forgiveness.

[lazarus]

It appears that you equate "open and honest" with caucasians asking for forgiveness.

Hey thats a good place to start. Its not the only place. Its refreshing to see it when it happens. A couple of the pastors on the CNN program included that as part of their openess and honesty.

On the other hand someone can ask for forgiveness and still not be open and honest to the point where healing can begin.

[there buster]

So caucasians are presumed guilty until proven guilty through the admission of guilt in the asking of forgiveness.

[John317]

My father is a retired SDA pastor. He moved from Southern California to central Tennessee in 1985. For the first 10 years, he was assigned to pastor an Adventist church that had about an equal number of blacks and whites. Everyone got along wonderfully. I never heard of a single problem between its members due to race differences. (The church building was made before the Civil War of boulders from the Tennessee River, near whose shores it sits. It's only about an hour's drive from Shiloh Battlefield.)

About 10 years ago my father retired for the second time and moved from there to a county in eastern Tennessee, not too far from Chattanooga. His main reason for moving there was that there was no Adventist church and he wanted to go where the need of evangelism was greatest. After he moved there, however, he found out that it is the only county in the the South which has no blacks living in it. I believe it was also the only county in Tennessee that voted against secession from the Union at the beginning of the War Between the States.

I've thought about the issue of asking for forgiveness for racial problems, and I've decided that if my asking for forgiveness will help people find healing and wholeness, I am glad to ask for forgiveness. That's just my own view and I don't judge or condemn anyone if they have an entirely different viewpoint.

[John317]

I had ancestors on both sides of the Civil War.

On my mom's side, my great-grandfather was from Arkansas, owned slaves and fought for the Confederacy. (Today some descendents of those slaves are named Sims after their ancestors' slaveowner.)

My dad's family, on the other hand, came from Wisconsin and fought for the Union and in order to free the slaves.

After the war, my mom's grandfather freed all his slaves and moved his family West to California.

As a kid, I remember my grandfather's brother, an Adventist pastor for over 40 years, telling jokes about "darkies". He would have us rolling on the floor at his funny stories.

Now, I'm positive he didn't think of it as wrong to be telling those jokes. They weren't bad or dirty jokes; they didn't encourage us to think negatively about Negroes; they were just stories about humorous things that happened to him and his brothers while they were growing up near Stockton, in northern California. He was a wonderful, natural-born story teller, whose stories remind me of some of the ones Mark Twain told.

Yet I am also sure that if he were alive today, there are people who, judging him by today's standards, would say he was "racist".

However, he spent almost his whole life and most of his money on a cannery which canned thousands of tons of fruits and vegetables that were given away to the poor. None of that food was sold. It was mostly given away to indians on the reservations in northern California, but it also was given to anyone who needed it, irrespective of color. To this day, the older Adventist people in the northern California church where he pastored remember his preaching, his stories and, yes, his cannery.

He loved everybody and treated everybody with kindness, love, and generosity.

Was he racist? And should he, and others of the past, be judged by the standards of today?

[lazarus]

So caucasians are presumed guilty until proven guilty through the admission of guilt in the asking of forgiveness.

No not at all.

A minister I saw in the CNN program said he asked for the forgivness of his colleagues on behalf of his people. I don't think he was presumed guilty but he accepted responsibility. I don't think he was asked to. He just did it. His desire was to see unity and healing. It had a powerful affect on the black pastors there. It was one step on the road to healing.

[lazarus]

I've thought about the issue of asking for forgiveness for racial problems, and I've decided that if my asking for forgiveness will help people find healing and wholeness, I am glad to ask for forgiveness. That's just my own view and I don't judge or condemn anyone if they have an entirely different viewpoint.

When I read your post I got all emotional. ( i didn't actually cry though!!!!)

You don't realise (or maybe you do) how that pespective could have the power to enrich and bring healing to many black, hsipanic, peoples lives. God bless you.

I have a few pastor friends at Sligo SDA church, Takoma Park and they had the idea of doing a special event during black history month. They were to talk about the Old Sligo and talk about segregation and the feelings of hurt and anger that resulted from this.

They planned to have a service of reconcilliation where white folks would ask for forgiveness for their part and their church's part. Black folks would confess their anger and resentment. They hoped to make this the start of a process of healing in their church.

[lazarus]

Was he racist? And should he, and others of the past, be judged by the standards of today?

Let me answer the question by relating an experience.

I remember a white English lady I used to visit, She was about 92. She was a member of one of my first churches. We would spend a long time talking about the good old days...or at least she would. She would talk about the old Advent message and how the preachers ( I guess she included me) aren't what they used to be. She told me about being a bible worker and how the work was really moving.

One day when I visited her she told me about how things changed, "especially when the darkies came". I was a bit startled by what she said. I stil listened and empathised. For her it was a bad thing that all these darkies came.

From of the things she said my guess is that she probably felt she was superior to me and therefore by definition she was a racist. I still visited her. I still pastored her. I really enjoyed hearing her talk about the past. She was warm, accepting and appreciated the visits.

I remember talking to my wife about it and we laughed. I wouldn't say she was a bad woman or that she's going to hell. She was a product of her times. I have no way of knowing how her attitudes may have hurt somebody. I'll leave that to God, He's merciful.

She may get a shock when she gets to heaven and sees that Jesus is black, and has an afro!

[Dr. Shane]

My mother tells the story of how she was young she went on a cross-coutnry trip. When she boarded the bus she saw all the folks in the back and it was the first time she had ever seen black people. She told her mom (my grandmother) that she wanted to go and sit with all the chocolate people. ...and she did. Not much racism in my family's history.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I've thought about the issue of asking for forgiveness for racial problems, and I've decided that if my asking for forgiveness will help people find healing and wholeness, I am glad to ask for forgiveness. That's just my own view and I don't judge or condemn anyone if they have an entirely different viewpoint.

When I read your post I got all emotional. ( i didn't actually cry though!!!!)

You don't realise (or maybe you do) how that pespective could have the power to enrich and bring healing to many black, hsipanic, peoples lives. God bless you.

I have a few pastor friends at Sligo SDA church, Takoma Park and they had the idea of doing a special event during black history month. They were to talk about the Old Sligo and talk about segregation and the feelings of hurt and anger that resulted from this.

They planned to have a service of reconcilliation where white folks would ask for forgiveness for their part and their church's part. Black folks would confess their anger and resentment. They hoped to make this the start of a process of healing in their church.

I heard something about that but I don't know what the results have been. I hope they've been good ones.

Some bring up the objection that if they ask for forgiveness or if they offer an apology, their words may be misunderstood to mean they are confessing to being a racist. But we might compare that attitude to Christ's. He came here to bring healing to the sick and he didn't care that a lot of people would misunderstand Him or His message. They thought Jesus was a sinner, but that didn't keep him from coming. He came anyway because He couldn't enjoy the glory of heaven while people were suffering, and His "reputation" wasn't so important to Him that He let it prevent Him from doing what He knew would help people. He could have said, "I won't go because most of the people will misunderstand me, " or, "I won't go because a lot of people will call me names." We can thank God Jesus didn't care if people thought he was confessing to something he wasn't. He just went ahead and did whatever was needed to heal and whatever love required to help get people well again.

[John317]

From of the things she said my guess is that she probably felt she was superior to me and therefore by definition she was a racist. I still visited her. I still pastored her. I really enjoyed hearing her talk about the past. She was warm, accepting and appreciated the visits.

I remember talking to my wife about it and we laughed. I wouldn't say she was a bad woman or that she's going to hell. She was a product of her times. I have no way of knowing how her attitudes may have hurt somebody. I'll leave that to God, He's merciful.

She may get a shock when she gets to heaven and sees that Jesus is black, and has an afro!

I honestly couldn't care less what color of skin he has or what kind of hair-cut. There is no reason to think he was black but there is also no reason to think he is white like me. I've said it before, and I mean it, if someone needs to think of Jesus as any particular color in order to indentify with Him and put their faith in Him, they're more than welcome to it and no one should discourage him.

[John317]

My mother tells the story of how she was young she went on a cross-coutnry trip. When she boarded the bus she saw all the folks in the back and it was the first time she had ever seen black people. She told her mom (my grandmother) that she wanted to go and sit with all the chocolate people. ...and she did. Not much racism in my family's history.

Here is a memory that has always bothered me.

I attended Loma Linda elementary school. One day, about 1962, I went out as usual on to the playing fields not long after school was let out. What I came upon still horrifies and haunts me to this day. I saw a large group of about 30 or so boys and girls, all white. It seems to me they were about in the 9th grade. There was a lot of yelling and laughing. As I got closer I noticed a black kid I didn't know in the middle of the group. He was maybe 14 or so. I just remember now they were pushing him around, making fun of him and calling him names. He was crying.

Did I say or do anything? I think I remember asking someone what happened and heard them reply they didn't know. I think I said leave him alone. I hope I did, but you know, I can't be positive. I wish I could be. I wish now I could put my arm around him and tell him it's OK. I would like to think I did something brave and good. All I know is that I couldn't bear to watch. So I turned and walked away to their jeers and laughter. What I can't forget are his tears. Walking away I think I was crying too but I'm not sure if it's a true memory or maybe something else.

[Woody]

Since the Blacks think they should be called African Americans ... the idea has spread. I guess I am required to be called a SWISS/Swedish American. Let it be known though that I prefer to be called American. I think that anything else is racist.

But, like I said ... it has spread. Now the Head of the Humane Society of the US (Pacelle) states that dogs should not be called dogs. He prefers Canine-Americans. GOODNESS. Will it never end?

I've never understood why we are suppose to give Human Rights to Dogs. They are not human. Now we have to call them Americans.

Redwood

[Dr. Shane]

I hope you are not comparing blacks to dogs. That doesn't sound good. :(

[lazarus]

Since the Blacks think they should be called African Americans ... the idea has spread. I guess I am required to be called a SWISS/Swedish American. Let it be known though that I prefer to be called American. I think that anything else is racist.

But, like I said ... it has spread. Now the Head of the Humane Society of the US (Pacelle) states that dogs should not be called dogs. He prefers Canine-Americans. GOODNESS. Will it never end?

I've never understood why we are suppose to give Human Rights to Dogs. They are not human. Now we have to call them Americans.

Redwood

Lol, I get it now Redwood. You're a "character" right? you're designed to spice things up....like Mrs Grey!!!

[Amelia]

Hehehe don't you wish Laz.

[lazarus]

Hehehe don't you wish Laz.

Come on Amelia....Is it you? I know its you! It has to be you?

[lazarus]

Quote:

She may get a shock when she gets to heaven and sees that Jesus is black, and has an afro!

Quote:

I honestly couldn't care less what color of skin he has or what kind of hair-cut. There is no reason to think he was black but there is also no reason to think he is white like me. I've said it before, and I mean it, if someone needs to think of Jesus as any particular color in order to indentify with Him and put their faith in Him, they're more than welcome to it and no one should discourage him.

I was just being silly. It will be incredible to see Him. He will trancend anything that we can ever imagine or project.