CNN's "Racism in America" surprised me.

[Dr. Shane]

The sterotype that hispanics most have to deal with is the idea that hispanics are stupid or ignorant. I think this sterotype comes from the fact that the hispanic high school drop-out rate is so high. It is the highest of any racial group. However one of the principle reasons it is so high is that many in the hispanic community are immirgrants and struggle in school with English and as a result they drop out. This is one of the reasons the hispanic leadership pushes bilingual education so much. However there are other reasons as I mentioned before.

An educated hispanic is just as smart as any other educated American. Because of the sterotype many think of hispanics as being ignorant or stupid and this impacts their ability to get a job, especially for small businesses that do not have to meet affirmative action quotas.

[lazarus]

Quote:

I am for total honesty in this forum and I can promise you that I will love you as a Christian SDA brother no matter what you say about race relations. I really mean that, Lazarus.

John

I could discuss this issue with you forever. I find your responses a genuine attempt to understand but yet get to the truth of a matter. I appreciate your honesty and openess. I think a dicussion with you about these issues would certainly lead to further understanding and healing. This is true for most who have posted here.

[lazarus]

Quote:

Would you admit that in any discussion of race relations, it is necessary to discuss, among other apropos conditions, the "state of black America"?

Of course, Its is also important to discuss the state of white America.

Take a look at this link. I've posted it before. Its old but the color of fear is a stunning documentary. It will change your view of the race issue if you ever get a chance to see it.

http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm

[John317]

Quote:

I must add that not all blacks are like those in this forum that are unwilling to admit to these problems.

What do you know about the black people on this forum other than what your prejudices drive you post? Only yesterday in my end of year sermon I enouraged my members mostly black, to buy books for their kids, read, turn off the TV etc.) I understand the issues that face my people more than you will ever know.

What evdience do you for the rediculous thing that you continue to post about black people on this forum?

Hey lets have a thread, whats wrong witth black community!

I applaud what you are doing, Laz. I have nothing but praise for you. I don't want you to think what I am saying is meant as any reflection on you personally.

I understand that what you can say about blacks is not something you want to hear coming from non-blacks. It's like if I hear others saying things I know to be true about my family but which I don't think others who don't love them have a right to say about them.

What has to be realized, though, is that here on this thread we're trying to express our views and our experiences about race. As a church we have to do that, even if it might hurt for a while. We have to get beyond those hurts but the ony way we can do that is to be able to express them and hear others' honest and forthright responses. We can't do it if one side says to shut up or whatever.

On the other hand, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this as openly as we are-- not if it hurts some people too much. Our togetherness as SDAs is far important than any racial issues we experience as human beings. It's like politics in some ways-- if those issues divide us, maybe it would be better if we didn't discuss them, because the main thing is that we need to be working to take the Good News of Jesus to everyone, and we can't do that if we're arguing about those other side issues. Ellen White and the Bible teach the same thing. The Gospel will bring us together in love around Jesus, but it does no good to try to force people to make changes. We all come out of different experiences and so we are not going to see everything just exactly alike. That's one main thing I've learned by participating on ClubAD. God wants all of us to love each other no matter what differences we have, and the important thing is how we treat those who don't agree with us.

[lazarus]

Quote:

I don't have any trouble condemning things that white people do that I believe are wrong. It just seems to me that black people have a hard time bringing themselves to do the same thing, and I have to admit, that kind of bothers me. Because with me, it's not a race issue-- I mean saying people are wrong to do things-- yet with blacks it seems to be an issue of race, whether they will come out in public and say certain kinds of behaviors, etc., are wrong.

What kinds of behaviors don't black people say are wrong? What kinds of behaviors do black people in general sanction that are wrong? Who should be condemning certain things that they are not.

I would not as a pastor and stand infront of a White SDA congregation and talk about the negative aspects of black society in the same way I would do it with a black congregation. I will do it in front of a black congregation.

Bill Cosby got into hot water becasue he aired dirty laundry in public. Everyone knew what he was saying was right but it was how!

[lazarus]

Quote:

Racism doesn't cause black men to be dead-beat dads. Racism didn't cause Jesse Jackson to set such a bad example for other blacks by committing adultry and having a "love" child. Racism doesn't cause blacks to steal from others - often times other blacks. Racism doesn't cause blacks to join street gangs. It doesn't cause blacks to use drugs. It doesn't cause blacks to drop out of school. It doesn't prevent blacks from attending church and giving their lives to Jesus. Racism cannot be the scapegoat for all the problems in the black community. (I am not saying that all blacks do these things, only that these are issues)

So Shane, what has led to this situation? Please let us know.

[lazarus]

Quote:

Racism doesn't cause black men to be dead-beat dads. Racism didn't cause Jesse Jackson to set such a bad example for other blacks by committing adultry and having a "love" child. Racism doesn't cause blacks to steal from others - often times other blacks. Racism doesn't cause blacks to join street gangs. It doesn't cause blacks to use drugs. It doesn't cause blacks to drop out of school. It doesn't prevent blacks from attending church and giving their lives to Jesus. Racism cannot be the scapegoat for all the problems in the black community. (I am not saying that all blacks do these things, only that these are issues)

So Shane, what has led to this situation? Please let us know.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Quote:

I must add that not all blacks are like those in this forum that are unwilling to admit to these problems.

What do you know about the black people on this forum other than what your prejudices drive you post? Only yesterday in my end of year sermon I enouraged my members mostly black, to buy books for their kids, read, turn off the TV etc.) I understand the issues that face my people more than you will ever know.

What evdience do you for the rediculous thing that you continue to post about black people on this forum?

Hey lets have a thread, whats wrong witth black community!

I applaud what you are doing, Laz. I have nothing but praise for you. I don't want you to think what I am saying is meant as any reflection on you personally.

I understand that what you can say about blacks is not something you want to hear coming from non-blacks. It's like if I hear others saying things I know to be true about my family but which I don't think others who don't love them have a right to say about them.

What has to be realized, though, is that here on this thread we're trying to express our views and our experiences about race. As a church we have to do that, even if it might hurt for a while. We have to get beyond those hurts but the ony way we can do that is to be able to express them and hear others' honest and forthright responses. We can't do it if one side says to shut up or whatever.

On the other hand, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this as openly as we are-- not if it hurts some people too much. Our togetherness as SDAs is far important than any racial issues we experience as human beings. It's like politics in some ways-- if those issues divide us, maybe it would be better if we didn't discuss them, because the main thing is that we need to be working to take the Good News of Jesus to everyone, and we can't do that if we're arguing about those other side issues. Ellen White and the Bible teach the same thing. The Gospel will bring us together in love around Jesus, but it does no good to try to force people to make changes. We all come out of different experiences and so we are not going to see everything just exactly alike. That's one main thing I've learned by participating on ClubAD. God wants all of us to love each other no matter what differences we have, and the important thing is how we treat those who don't agree with us.

..............................................................

What John317 has said here is SO true. I feel exactly the same and can really relate to this. I want to thank John for articulating it so well. Thank you John for saying my feelings better than I could do.

REDWOOD

[lazarus]

What has to be realized, though, is that here on this thread we're trying to express our views and our experiences about race. As a church we have to do that, even if it might hurt for a while. We have to get beyond those hurts but the ony way we can do that is to be able to express them and hear others' honest and forthright responses.

I don't mind honest and forthright opinions but I have to object to opinions that have no basis in fact and that are based on prjudicial assumptions. These are important discussions to have.

Quote:

Our togetherness as SDAs is far important than any racial issues we experience as human beings.

The point is that we are not together.

Quote:

It's like politics in some ways-- if those issues divide us, maybe it would be better if we didn't discuss them, because the main thing is that we need to be working to take the Good News of Jesus to everyone, and we can't do that if we're arguing about those other side issues.

These are not side issues. The evidence that the world has that we are his people is that we love one another.

[Amelia]

Laz, if you would like to split out another topic from this thread, be my guest. Also, if you would like to say some things that you haven't due to this public forum, you can certainly begin a thread in "Natter Matters".

[John317]

Quote:

Would you admit that in any discussion of race relations, it is necessary to discuss, among other apropos conditions, the "state of black America"?

Of course, Its is also important to discuss the state of white America.

Take a look at this link. I've posted it before. Its old but the color of fear is a stunning documentary. It will change your view of the race issue if you ever get a chance to see it.

http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm

Looks like a fantastic study and film. I took a quick look but will examine more closely. I see the destructiveness of these problems a lot, actually every day.

I got into relationships and situations that resulted in things that happened to me that I wouldn't want to describe on CA or even tell people today. So I know personally what those scars can do. They run so deep.

I have two daughters who are "hispanic" and my oldest has already told me things that make me angry and sad at the same time because of some things that have happened to her because of her rather dark color.

(My daughters are 1/8 Japanese, 1/2 English/German, and the rest is a mixture of Yaqui indian and Spanish. If you care to see them, they are among my photos posted on CA.)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What has to be realized, though, is that here on this thread we're trying to express our views and our experiences about race. As a church we have to do that, even if it might hurt for a while. We have to get beyond those hurts but the ony way we can do that is to be able to express them and hear others' honest and forthright responses.

I don't mind honest and forthright opinions but I have to object to opinions that have no basis in fact and that are based on prjudicial assumptions. These are important discussions to have.

Quote:

Our togetherness as SDAs is far important than any racial issues we experience as human beings.

The point is that we are not together.

Quote:

It's like politics in some ways-- if those issues divide us, maybe it would be better if we didn't discuss them, because the main thing is that we need to be working to take the Good News of Jesus to everyone, and we can't do that if we're arguing about those other side issues.

These are not side issues. The evidence that the world has that we are his people is that we love one another.

Here's my opinion: Our togetherness doesn't depend on our agreement on racial issues. Our togetherness depends on the Holy Spirit and on basic Bible teachings having to do with Jesus Christ and salvation. We love each other not because we agree on politics or even race but because we are all Christians and love Jesus Christ. That love will drive (does drive) us to forgive wrongs and to treat each other as we would want to be treated. It causes me to love people in the church who might disagree with me about almost everything. The problem comes when I have hatred or anger against someone over those disagreements. The disagreements themselves are not necessarily wrong or harmful.

I am not downplaying the race issue, but we have to remember that there were national and racial divides in the New Testament times, and there was even slavery in those times, too, yet the Scriptures don't say those people weren't saints or weren't going to be saved. I believe the Bible gives strong evidence that people are going to be saved even though they have various theological, social and racial biases or prejudices.

My own view is that Christ could have come in 1890 had the church accepted the message of 1888 and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit to the world at that time. I don't think there is evidence that it was racial prejudices, whether among whites or blacks, that kept the church from going on into the kingdom. It was the simple fact that they did not accept and practice the full righteousness of Christ, which would have resulted in the pouring out of the "latter rain."

For sure once we accept the "early" and "latter rain," we are going to love everyone no matter what their race is. We will treat everyone lovingly whom we come in contact with. That's the main thing. But that is a separate issue, as I see it, from all of us having the same view of history, race relations, and all quesions of race. The point is that our love of Christ will cause us to love each other in spite of other differences. We don't have to be the same or view things the same in order to have agape love for one another. We can disagree and yet treat each other with love and dignity as brothers and sisters.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What has to be realized, though, is that here on this thread we're trying to express our views and our experiences about race. As a church we have to do that, even if it might hurt for a while. We have to get beyond those hurts but the ony way we can do that is to be able to express them and hear others' honest and forthright responses.

Quote:

It's like politics in some ways-- if those issues divide us, maybe it would be better if we didn't discuss them, because the main thing is that we need to be working to take the Good News of Jesus to everyone, and we can't do that if we're arguing about those other side issues.

These are not side issues. The evidence that the world has that we are his people is that we love one another.

I agree that to the extent that those things keep me from loving others and from treating them like I want to be treated, it is not a side issue.

What I was talking about, though, are issues related to race that it is not necessary for us to agree about. It is not necessary for us to see everything the same way in order for me to love others as my brother or sister in Christ. For instance, I know some people who don't even want to talk to someone who doesn't agree with them on various questions having to do with race, such as whether blacks should be paid money for the years their ancestors spent in slavery. That is what I mean by "side-issues." They are not directly related to Christ, salvation, and preparing for Christ's return.

In a way, really, I think anything that gets our attention off onto other matters, away from Christ, and especially those things that tend to divide us rather than unite us, can only hurt us as a church. For example, I would only participate in this thread as long as I think there is some good being done here in terms of helping us understand one another. I hope it's doing that. I think sometimes, though, that hurts of this kind can run so deeply that we're no longer listening to what others are saying. We have to forgive that, too.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

What do you know about the black people on this forum other than what your prejudices drive you post?

Actually I don't have a prejudice bone in my body. I was raised in the north, in a Christian home and neither of my parents ever made racist comments or told racist jokes. I grew up in a vietnamese neighborhood and always thought my first girlfriend would be vietnamese but we moved to Minnesota when I was 16. I fell in love with the black community at Andrews but had to go back to a state school for financial reasons. My bestfriend in college was black and he was my bestman at my wedding when I married a hispanic woman.

The fact is we don't know who is black, yellow, white, red or brown on this forum unless they tell us. I had no idea cubensis was black until this thread. I don't find my identity in my race. My identity is wrapped up in my relationship with Christ. However I do know that the blacks on this forum that make it a point of letting everyone know they are black generally are not willing to discuss problems in the black community.

We cannot discuss race relations without discussing issues in the varius race communities. For example, if we are going to discuss the prejudice many white people hold about hispanics being stupid, we need to discuss the problems in the hispanic community that may contribute to that prejudice. We can't discuss one without discussing the other.

[John317]

Quote:

I don't have any trouble condemning things that white people do that I believe are wrong. It just seems to me that black people have a hard time bringing themselves to do the same thing, and I have to admit, that kind of bothers me. Because with me, it's not a race issue-- I mean saying people are wrong to do things-- yet with blacks it seems to be an issue of race, whether they will come out in public and say certain kinds of behaviors, etc., are wrong.

What kinds of behaviors don't black people say are wrong? What kinds of behaviors do black people in general sanction that are wrong? Who should be condemning certain things that they are not.

Before I say anything more, I just want to say that I don't think any of the problems I describe below are limited to blacks by any means. In fact, millions of white kids are starting to have many of the same problems, often as a result of the strong influence that black recording artists are having on them. Of course there are bad influences being felt by white recording artists, too, who, ironically, are known primarily as black because of style and lyrics, etc.

I think there needs to be more emphasis on the fact that black kids deserve to be born with fathers and mother's married and living together. The trend of births outside of marriage among blacks is higher than among any other group, but it is also growing among American Latinos and among caucasions as well.

Also the necessity of working hard at school, getting an education, reading books, these all need heavy emphasis, but you hardly ever hear this emphasis.

Neighborhoods need to get angry at drug pushers and let them know they are not welcome and to force them off their streets.

Anything having to do with gangs and gang talk or behaviors must be condemned, not celebrated or thought of as good in any way.

Sex outside of marriage must be condemned, instead of being condoned and joked about or just being seen as "a black thing."

Going to jail or prison should be something people are made to be ashamed of, not made to feel it is no big thing or that it is even something to be proud of or to celebrate.

Hard work and honesty must be brought back as something necessary and good.People should not feel that "trash talk" is the norm or something to be expected.

(Please don't think I am saying there is no hard work or honesty among blacks. I know there are millions who work hard and are honest. I know that for blacks to succeed, they often have to work harder than whites. I am simply talking about some serious problems as I see them, particularly among the youth that I work with on a daily basis. I am not saying all the black youth I work with don't work hard or are not honest. But I would have to say that the majority that I see do have problems in this area.)

Blacks should be encourage to think independently and not according to the way blacks are "supposed to think." They shouldn't be denegrated for being Republican or for voting a certain way. It should be the same as with whites: no one says white as not white if they vote a particilar way and neither should a black have to feel he needs to whisper the fact that he thinks a certain way about anything for fear other blacks will hear him. In other words, there should be freedom of speech, of thought and of expression.

OK, that's enough for now.

Quote:

I would not as a pastor and stand infront of a White SDA congregation and talk about the negative aspects of black society in the same way I would do it with a black congregation. I will do it in front of a black congregation.

Of course. I understand that. Doing otherwise would be like my getting up in front of strangers and trashing my family.

Yet the truth is that whites do it all the time in front of black audiences. In fact, both black and white comedians do it a lot. But whites do it as a way of showing blacks that they like blacks or that they are "down" with the blacks. I know, because I do that myself. The thing is that I am not sensitive about black/white differences, and I don't feel threatened by those things. I appreciate a lot of the differences between blacks and whites, just as I really like some of the differences between Mexicans and caucasion Americans. (Some would say I shouldn't but I love all music except for rap, and that includes all the great black music, and much of black poetry and literature, which is also a kind of music. By the way, have you ever compared the differenes in themes and even in styles between contemporary American black and white poetry? I don't mean you haven't; I'm just pointing out something of interest to me.)

Quote:

Bill Cosby got into hot water becasue he aired dirty laundry in public. Everyone knew what he was saying was right but it was how!

OK, I understand that, and of course I knew that before; but I think one thing that keeps words such as his from having their desired affect-- which is to stop those kinds of behaviors-- is that the "black community" reacted negatively to him the way it did by attacking him. That reaction also had the result of causing a lot of whites to think the blacks were denying the truth of what Cosby said.

Please don't take this in the wrong way, but it seems to me that white racism had to be attacked openly and in public for any major changes to take place. That was not kept in a closet with the rest of the dirty laundry, and it shouldn't have been. As a matter of fact, a lot of whites, particularly those of us who grew up on the West coast, weren't even aware of those conditions in the south until those things were aired out in public. But the point is, that was when people knew the laundry was being seriously washed. Maybe we don't see much change in the black community as regards the things Cosby pointed out in public because they don't yet feel ashamed enough of their dirty laundry to really get serious about washing it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I applaud what you are doing, Laz. I have nothing but praise for you. I don't want you to think what I am saying is meant as any reflection on you personally.

I understand that what you can say about blacks is not something you want to hear coming from non-blacks. It's like if I hear others saying things I know to be true about my family but which I don't think others who don't love them have a right to say about them.

What has to be realized, though, is that here on this thread we're trying to express our views and our experiences about race. As a church we have to do that, even if it might hurt for a while. We have to get beyond those hurts but the ony way we can do that is to be able to express them and hear others' honest and forthright responses. We can't do it if one side says to shut up or whatever.

On the other hand, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this as openly as we are-- not if it hurts some people too much. Our togetherness as SDAs is far important than any racial issues we experience as human beings. It's like politics in some ways-- if those issues divide us, maybe it would be better if we didn't discuss them, because the main thing is that we need to be working to take the Good News of Jesus to everyone, and we can't do that if we're arguing about those other side issues. Ellen White and the Bible teach the same thing. The Gospel will bring us together in love around Jesus, but it does no good to try to force people to make changes. We all come out of different experiences and so we are not going to see everything just exactly alike. That's one main thing I've learned by participating on ClubAD. God wants all of us to love each other no matter what differences we have, and the important thing is how we treat those who don't agree with us. [/quote']

..............................................................

What John317 has said here is SO true. I feel exactly the same and can really relate to this. I want to thank John for articulating it so well. Thank you John for saying my feelings better than I could do.

REDWOOD

Hey Redwood,

You really are welcome. I feel those things so far down in me and have thought about these things for years, and am just glad that I finally found a place where I can talk honestly about them.

Happy New Year!!! I probably won't be back here until next year. See you then I hope. God bless you and everyone else on CA. John317

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

The American government freed the slaves and ended segregation.

Slavery and segregation were practiced in the Southern states in the US. The northern and western states did not practice slavery or segregation.

Let's keep this in prespective.