CNN's "Racism in America" surprised me.

[lazarus]

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I don't know if it makes any difference but the 13 Colonies did debate the issue of whether to prohibit slavery in the United States. The reason they didn't make it illegal was that if they had done that, there were some states, such as those in the deep South, who would not have joined the others in their fight against our mother country, England. It was thought that it was more important to fight for independence than try to free the slaves. They could not have freed the slaves, in any case, in those states that might have decided to withdraw from the confederation. So it was best for them at that point to concentrate on the war against England.

Another important point is that the original Declaration of Independence, as Thomas Jefferson planned it, contained condemnations of England for its slave-trade. These were deleted, however, because it was not thought prudent to alienate or anger certain states who had an invested interest in slavery and might therefore decide not to join the war for Independence. At that time, it needs to be remembered, the choice seemed to be either freedom from England or a failed attempt to liberate the slaves. There simply was not the interest at that point in going to war to free slaves. We wouldn't reach that point for almost another hundred years, and even then, the Civil War would be fought largely in order to keep the union, and only incidentally, at least for a large portion of the people, in order to free the slaves.

It was not unil the 1950's, 60's and 70' that segregation was dismantled and the freedom to vote was give to blacks. There was some racism at wrok there don't you think. It took all those years for those inaliable rights to be given. Hmmmm

[John317]

Actually some guys at my work have admitted this, but it's kinda funny because when they told me it they would whisper it or try to make sure no one was listening. Why are they afraid of saying it? I am not afraid of saying whatever I am thinking. It doesn't matter if whites like what I am saying or not. I don't deliberately say things to make anyone upset but if my expression of an opinion or conviction, say, about OJ or Peterson, makes someone angry or whatever, I am sorry, but I wouldn't try to hide it from them. I don't expect anyone else to try to hide their true feelings or thoughts from me. I like honesty.

I think it's good for a race for its members to be free to be themselves rather than all try to behave or think or talk alike. In my work with black kids I encourage them to be independent thinkers and to read different kinds of books and listen to different kinds of music. I encourage them to read the great classics written by blacks but I also like to see them reading books by whites and listening to classical music and country western and all sorts. It can only be a good thing for people, especially kids, to learn to see things from different perspectives and feel free to entertain different viewpoints. But I have to deal with kids who are under such terrific peer pressure. It's so hard to break out.

[John317]

It was not unil the 1950's, 60's and 70' that segregation was dismantled and the freedom to vote was give to blacks. There was some racism at wrok there don't you think. It took all those years for those inaliable rights to be given. Hmmmm

Oh, of course I am aware of that. Freedom to vote was passed in the Civil Rights act of 1964, which by the way was passed by more Republican votes than Democratic. And I am well aware, too, that the voting rights act did not change everything overnight. The laws had to be changed, yes, but people love other people not on account of legislative acts but because people find others lovable and their characters attractive and admirable.

A funny thing happened to me when I hitch-hiked through the South as a teen-ager. It was only about a month before Martin Luther King's assassination and I was in New Orleans (March 1968) when I came to a hotel and knocked on the door. A black man came to the door and looking through a little window in the door he told me it was for Negroes only. I didn't feel bad, really, but it was the first and only time I was turned away because of the color of my skin. Fortunately I was able to find a nice warm place to sleep that night.

About that same time I met a bunch white kids that I started hanging out with. I broke company with them, though, after a few days because I didn't appreciate their anti-black attutudes. I had an argument with them over the issue of slavery and how blacks were treated in the South still at that time. In those days I was very passionate about social justice.

[John317]

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The bottom line for me is that there is political correctness when it comes to talking about race, and then there is reality. As far as my experience is concerned one is as far from the other as the moon is from the sun.

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I'm not sure what the above means by way of political correctness but I'm so glad that white folks have to ultra careful about what they say and how they say it. That is progess. Gone are the days when a white man can call me "boy" and "[theN-word]" and think nothing of it. Its wonderful that my son does not have to words and attitudes that should be best left in the mind.

But my basic point is that every time I speak to whites about racism in America it wierd how the converation ends up at the same point. Its blacks who have the problem and we (white people) are the victims!

What I mean about political correctness is that the establishment is so interested in not rocking the boat and in pushing a particular viewpoint that I don't recognize much truth in what is being written about race and what race relations are like. I see it now and then but not often.

I am glad you don't get called "boy" or "[theN-word]" but white people can get called "white boy" and "whitey" all the time and most people wouldn't even dare object to it. (Actually, I was doing some photography work in LA a few weeks ago, and a black guy yelled out, "Hey what's this white boy doing with his camera here?" I yelled back, "So what if I got a camera?" and nobody said anything more about it. I think they were suprised at my boldness because most people in that situation probably would have been intimidated.) I'm called that every day at my work but I actually don't care. It's done in good fun anyway, so I know it's totally different than if people were calling you those things you mentioned. I know I could force them to stop calling me those things but it's kinda part of our rapport. Anyway, I try to discourage the kids from calling each other "niggah," which I understand, but still it isn't good for them to use it. Even Jessie Jackson came out recently against its use. It's denigrating whether they realize it or not, just as it is for them to "sag." You know, they call me "niggah" too. It's second nature.

[John317]

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I'm sorry that you had that experience. Perhaps you can understand a life time of battling illogical assertions about black people. Having to prove that you as good as the white man.

Let me see if you recognize how something works on the job.

If an employee acts crazy all the time, pretty soon people will just think, "Oh well, that's so-and-so. That is just how he is. Everyone knows how so-and-so is." But then if another guy, who is straight (I mean dependable) and well-behaved and doesn't act crazy, suddenly does something people don't like, he gets the heat because nobody is afraid or intimidated by him. They realize he's totally sane and won't hurt anyone and won't fly off the handle. So they put up with a lot less from that person than they do from the guy who's been screwing up all along. It's kinda like the phrase goes, "The squeeky wheel gets the greese." Sometimes you gotta squeek or people think they can step all over you with impunity. That is one thing blacks learned from the Civil Rights movement and from their need to speak up. They learned how to be a squeeky wheel and how to scream and intimidate. I've seen it work hundreds of times. I've seen this sort of thing manipulated so that some of the black staff get expectations about them lowered to the point where they almost don't have to do much of anything. Everyone knows that is just how these specific staff are. On the other hand, I don't screw up and I do everything by the book, so everything I do gets noticed and the expections for me are sky high. It's like if you say you are honest and don't lie. Every habitual liar will then be looking to drag you down so they can say that no one is honest and that you lie too, so they can begin feeling good about themselves again.

Does that make any sense to you or conform to anything you have experienced or seen in your lifetime? I ask you this because I feel confidence that you will tell me the truth from a black perspective, which I am very interested in understanding. I used to have a very close black friend whom I could talk to but he died, a couple of years back, of AIDS.

[Dr. Shane]

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If my dad had gone to the US instead of the Uk he would have faced segregation.

This would have only been true in certain southern states. It is wrong to paint the entire US with the same brush.

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We are dealing with systematic, intentional, vicious racism on the part of the majority of white people in the USA.

Segregation was not the case in the nation's most populated cities: New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. Most certainly the majority of white people in the US did not support it. If they had, it would have been practiced throughout the US.

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i've hardly ever had a discussion on racism where [a] white person has admitted to being racist

That is becuase a real racist will not discuss racism with black people.

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There is not the same remose as expressed by the german people concerning WW2.

The bloodest war in America that was ever fought was, in a large part, fought to abolish slavery. I am not sure how much German blood was shed to provide the Jews with a homeland.

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Its wonderful that my son does not have to words and attitudes that should be best left in the mind.

Yes indeed! It is wonderful! America is wonderful! Gone are the days of slavery! Gone are the days of southern segregation! America is home of the free and the land of opportunity! It is wonderful!

[Dr. Shane]

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Are you really suggesting that white women were more clearly discriminated against that blacks in America.

Moreso. White women were discriminated against more than free black men were. Blacks also recieved the right to vote before women. FYI when a wealthy woman married, all her wealth became her husbands. This is how our first President, George Washington (GW for short) became rich. He married a wealthy widow.

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They didn't sell their fellow countrymen.

I was using the term loosly and my point was not addressed.

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This note was a promise that all men - yes, black men as well as white men - would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Again there is some confusion between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independance. The Declaration of Indpendance was a letter from the Colonies to England. It is not a governmental document and did not form any type of government. Thus it did not grant anyone, white, black, male or female, any rights. It certainly isn't a check anyone can take to the capital to cash.

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just out of interest do you speak as a member of the white community also?

Well, I use to be a member of a white community. I am married to a hispanic. I work for a hispanic-owned company. I am actually the only white employee. Most of the members at my church are hispanic but we do have a few whites. I also work with a few white subcontractors. Most of the hispanics I work with speak english but between home and work I suspect I end up speaking Spanish 40% of the time.

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The government was prestty much forced to do what it did in terms of civil rights.

This twisted view of history may be one of the reasons so many American blacks still feel as they do. The civil rights movement changed the American south. The civil rights that blacks won in the south, those in the north already had. Blacks in cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles were allowed to vote, own property and did not have to deal with segregation. It was a white President, a white Supreme Court and a white Congress that force the southern states to give blacks in the south the same rights the blacks in the north and west already had.

[Amelia]

*Tacking on

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Reconstruction and the Civil War Amendments

Before the Civil War the United States Constitution did not provide specific protections for voting. Qualifications for voting were matters which neither the Constitution nor federal laws governed. At that time, although a few northern states permitted a small number of free black men to register and vote, slavery and restrictive state laws and practices led the franchise to be exercised almost exclusively by white males.

Shortly after the end of the Civil War Congress enacted the Military Reconstruction Act of 1867, which allowed former Confederate States to be readmitted to the Union if they adopted new state constitutions that permitted universal male suffrage. The 14th Amendment, which conferred citizenship to all persons born or naturalized in the United States, was ratified in 1868.

In 1870 the 15th Amendment was ratified, which provided specifically that the right to vote shall not be denied or abridged on the basis of race, color or previous condition of servitude. This superseded state laws that had directly prohibited black voting. Congress then enacted the Enforcement Act of 1870, which contained criminal penalties for interference with the right to vote, and the Force Act of 1871, which provided for federal election oversight.

As a result, in the former Confederate States, where new black citizens in some cases comprised outright or near majorities of the eligible voting population, hundreds of thousands -- perhaps one million -- recently-freed slaves registered to vote. Black candidates began for the first time to be elected to state, local and federal offices and to play a meaningful role in their governments.

*Note: While the recently freed slaves could and did register to vote many states adopted laws of prohibiting them in other ways from voting. Like being able to read, write and gender.

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The Voting Rights Act, adopted initially in 1965 and extended in 1970, 1975, and 1982, is generally considered the most successful piece of civil rights legislation ever adopted by the United States Congress. The Act codifies and effectuates the 15th Amendment's permanent guarantee that, throughout the nation, no person shall be denied the right to vote on account of race or color. In addition, the Act contains several special provisions that impose even more stringent requirements in certain jurisdictions throughout the country.

Read about it here: http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro.htm

The suffrage movement was also segregated

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The National American Woman Suffrage Association (NAWSA) also upheld the racist ideologues of the day. Excluding black women from membership, it garnered significant support from southern women by asserting that the white woman's vote would maintain white supremacy in the South. In response, black women, such as Mary Church Terrell, formed their own organization to further suffrage in 1896, the National Association of Colored Women (NACW).

*Note: poor immigrant white women were not included in the suffrage movement

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Aug. 26 1920

The 19th Amendment to the Constitution, granting women the right to vote, is signed into law by Secretary of State Bainbridge Colby.

[Amelia]

I forgot to add that women's voting rights were given and taken away by many states and territories prior to the 19th amendment.

[Amelia]

I pose that no one person can speak for a community of people unless they have been given that right by said community. Otherwise one is just voicing their opinion of that community.

And Shane, just because you are married to and live in a Hispanic community, doesn't make you a spokesperson or authority for that community. You were not born into nor grow up with the Hispanic experience.

Speaking as a white person even I can only generalise the white opinion because I don't know every white person in the country.

[Dr. Shane]

None of us has authority to act as a spokesperson for any ethnic group unless we have been elected by that ethinic group to be such a spokesperson. Even if we are genetically a member of a specific race of people, we cannot speak for the entire race. However, regardless if we are a member of an ethnic group or not, we can cite statisics, polls and studies done by and in that group of people which gives us more information than the single opinion of any one member of the given group.

My point about being a member of the hispanic community is that when I am a part of a group of people standing around the water cooler talking about politics or racial issues, I am normally the only white guy in the group. The company I work for is a hispanic company. Its name is Enriquez Enterprises. It is ran by three brothers and all are political. Two of them are Republicans and one is a Democrat. All have ran for political office only the Democrat has won.

As Amelia has pointed out, prior to the Civil War, racial issues were really left up to the individual states. The US wasn't much more than a loose alliance of states. While many of the northern states gave black men freedom, most of the black population was in the south.

Racism still exists, no doubt. And there is more than one breed of racism. This is an issue that churches need to continue to deal with - black churches included. Racism abounds. There are hispanics that have racist attitudes towards asians, whites and blacks. Blacks that have racists attitudes toward whites, hispanics, and asians, etc. Whites that think they are better because of the education or family upbringing, etc. It doesn't help when one group starts demanding that another group appoligize for what their ancestors did.

[Woody]

There are many forms of racism.

My definition is to give preference over one race higher than another. I believe in a color blind society.

Laws such as affirmation action are racist.

Now days most racism is against Whites. The minorities are given so much preferential treatment over the Whites. It is very difficult for a White person to get a job if he is going up against a Black or minority.

I am of Swiss and Swedish background. Yet ... I do not call myself a Swiss American. I am like all Americans .... Just an American. The Blacks have to call themselves Black American. The Asians call themselves Asian Americans. It gets rather silly. We all came from somewhere and we DROP our previous nationality and call ourselves AMERICANs.

I don't go around insisting that there be more SWISS Americans represented on TV or SWISS Americans in Congress. I gave up that identity when I became an American citizen.

I am now a citizen of heaven. Jesus has given me eternal life. I don't go around insisting that the church have a better representation of Sinners as represented by my Swiss American Heritage.

[lazarus]

Ley me resate my basic point:

The CNN series was refreshing it there was alot of hope and common ground. The whites in the dicussion unreservedly acknowledged the sin of racism in America' past perpetrated by American's white community. The blacks were willing to forgive and reach out. There were white pastors who understood the racism that existed and still exists in their denomination. There were black pastors who were open to building partnerships and bring healing.

As has been evidenced here there is an unwillingness by some to accept the reality of white racsim which has been a conspicuous feature of American life.

[lazarus]

.

My definition is to give preference over one race higher than another. I believe in a color blind society.

Its an interesting definition. Usually, personal definitions of words are generally self serving. They will always support your argument.

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Laws such as affirmation action are racist.

You say that because your definition or racism is at fault.

The idea is not the Blacks or minorities are seen as superior its that they were treated as inferior and therefore were unable to have had equality of opportunity in the past.

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Now days most racism is against Whites. The minorities are given so much preferential treatment over the Whites. It is very difficult for a White person to get a job if he is going up against a Black or minority.

Those are wild statements. Lets some facts/figures to support your argument.

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I am of Swiss and Swedish background. Yet ... I do not call myself a Swiss American. I am like all Americans .... Just an American. The Blacks have to call themselves Black American. The Asians call themselves Asian Americans. It gets rather silly. We all came from somewhere and we DROP our previous nationality and call ourselves AMERICANs.

I assume you are white. My guess is that you can say that because your are white. This is an argument GENERALLY used by white people.

As in my previous post. In most discussions with white folk its the minorities that are the problem and its the whites who are the victims.

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I don't go around insisting that there be more SWISS Americans represented on TV or SWISS Americans in Congress. I gave up that identity when I became an American citizen.

I assume that you are white. Generally your cultural concerns and identity issues are

respected and catered to in America thats good. You have no need. Thats fantastic. If you are willing to give upyour identity thats cool.

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I am now a citizen of heaven. Jesus has given me eternal life. I don't go around insisting that the church have a better representation of Sinners as represented by my Swiss American Heritage.

Thats simply because the church caters to your needs. Most whites leave when their needs are no longer catered to. They don't seek to work with the new normal they just transfer their membership!

[Dr. Shane]

As I read through this thread, I see a lot of white people admitting that there is and has been racism among white people. What I don't see is specific white people, like myself, admitting that they themselves are or have been racist. As I stated earlier, that is likely because a real racist wouldn't get involved in such discussions.

I have also seen in this thread the effort to blame all of America for the racism that occured in the southern states and not acknowledge the blood, sweat and tears that were shed on the part of northern and western Americans to free the slaves and later end segregation.

[Kountzer]

I saw it mentioned about that CNN special, but I didn't pay much attention. What could Paula Zahn add that hasn't already been discussed?

Besides,

WHO CARES? The Creator of the universe cares for me and loves me. He created me, put the dna and genetics together. He created my race and culture. He created you and yours also.

So what that some mixed up humans got it all twisted. If they don't get their hearts and minds in line with God, their future is finite. God is on my side. Everything else is a lot of noise, sound and fury signifying nothing.

DB

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

As an interesting side note, the Irish were also used in the slave trade in North America. The only difference between an Irish slave and an African slave, especially in the early years of North American slave trade, is that the Irish slave was free for the taking - the African slave had to be bought. However, when the Irish slaves began to be bought and sold, it was the African slave who was more expensive and better treated (though there were horrendous treatments of all slaves by some owners):

Irish Slavery

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Although African Negroes were better suited to work in the semi-tropical climates of the Caribbean, they had to be purchased, while the Irish were free for the catching, so to speak. It is not surprising that Ireland became the biggest source of livestock for the English slave trade.

**snip**

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Although the Africans and Irish were housed together and were the property of the planter owners, the Africans received much better treatment, food and housing. In the British West Indies the planters routinely tortured white slaves for any infraction. Owners would hang Irish slaves by their hands and set their hands or feet afire as a means of punishment. To end this barbarity, Colonel William Brayne wrote to English authorities in 1656 urging the importation of Negro slaves on the grounds that, "as the planters would have to pay much more for them, they would have an interest in preserving their lives, which was wanting in the case of (Irish)...." many of whom, he charged, were killed by overwork and cruel treatment. African Negroes cost generally about 20 to 50 pounds Sterling, compared to 900 pounds of cotton (about 5 pounds Sterling) for an Irish. They were also more durable in the hot climate, and caused fewer problems. The biggest bonus with the Africans though, was they were NOT Catholic, and any heathen pagan was better than an Irish Papist. Irish prisoners were commonly sentenced to a term of service, so theoretically they would eventually be free. In practice, many of the slavers sold the Irish on the same terms as prisoners for servitude of 7 to 10 years.

**snip**

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There was no racial consideration or discrimination, you were either a freeman or a slave, but there was aggressive religious discrimination, with the Pope considered by all English Protestants to be the enemy of God and civilization, and all Catholics heathens and hated. Irish Catholics were not considered to be Christians. On the other hand, the Irish were literate, usually more so than the plantation owners, and thus were used as house servants, account keepers, scribes and teachers. But any infraction was dealt with the same severity, whether African or Irish, field worker or domestic servant. Floggings were common, and if a planter beat an Irish slave to death, it was not a crime, only a financial loss, and a lesser loss than killing a more expensive African.

okay....back to African American racism....

[Woody]

I have to confess ... I am from a county and a very large county where out of many hundreds of thousands of people there are only 150 black people. So ... I haven't had much exposure to discrimination. When I've left this county I found out that the Blacks always want more and more representation and privileges.

I figure that if there are 10% Blacks in the country ... that I would expect 10% of the people in TV shows to be Black and 10% of the politicians to be Black. But, I find that the minorities of all kinds want and expect more than the percentage of the population that they represent. They want a majority when they are NOT a majority they are a minority. However they attempt to push there weight like they are a majority.

From my study of HISTORY I believe there was racial discrimination. Even though the only discrimination I have seen is when white friends were discriminated against in order to give Blacks special privileges based totally on their skin color. This is why I believe in a color blind society. This was what MLK promoted while he was alive. I supported his beliefs. But the Blacks nowdays have gone far beyond what MLK was promoting.

[Woody]

Another example of racism is the use of the 'N' word. The Blacks use this word frequently among themselves as a joke or to use as a term of endearment. If you watch TV much and there are Blacks talking you will hear this word used frequently.

HOWEVER ... As soon as a White person uses the word ... There are big and dreadful consequences. And this is even if it wasn't used in a hateful way. If it is used in a joking way the Black is laughed at but the White is canned.

[Dr. Shane]

Racism is still alive and well and while racial minorities do have an advantage at getting into schools and hired on at large corporations, they still face prejudice when looking for work in small companies or seeking to rent a house or apartment in certain neighborhoods. I don't want to diminish the racism that minorities still have to deal with.

However, many minorities also have racist attitudes toward other minorities and toward white people. They also need to address these prejudices and work on judging others on the basis of their charachter rather than the color of their skin. Talking about what the grandparents of one group did to the grandparents of another group isn't helpful. In fact, it seems to do more harm than good.

If it matters, my grandparents on one side immigrated here from Germany and on the other side were from Wisconsin so neither was involved in slavery or segregation.

[Kountzer]

Whatever. Thank goodness for my region conf. church. C/A is about as much fellowship as I want with some of you.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know how I feel about the regional conferences. However I think the ethnical churches do serve a purpose. Not that I favor segregation, no one should ever be forced to attend or excluded from a congregation's membership due to ethnicity. However I know there is a lot of prejudice that still exists in the church and having hispanic, Filipino, Hmong, black churches etc. does allow for these minorities to have opportunities to serve that may not be as plentiful if there were not any ethnic churches.

[lazarus]

I saw it mentioned about that CNN special, but I didn't pay much attention. What could Paula Zahn add that hasn't already been discussed?

Like I said in my first post I wasn't going to pay much attention but the nature of the discussion caught my attention. You're right Paula Zahn didn't much to add but I don't think she was expected to.

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WHO CARES?

I hear you! I often wonder if my attempts are futile. This latest discourse was perhaps a lesson in that.

Peace!

[lazarus]

As I read through this thread, I see a lot of white people admitting that there is and has been racism among white people.

I missed that. I'm using a mac so sometimes I don't get to see the threads in the same way as windoze users! :duno

[lazarus]

Another example of racism is the use of the 'N' word. The Blacks use this word frequently among themselves as a joke or to use as a term of endearment. If you watch TV much and there are Blacks talking you will hear this word used frequently.

HOWEVER ... As soon as a White person uses the word ... There are big and dreadful consequences. And this is even if it wasn't used in a hateful way. If it is used in a joking way the Black is laughed at but the White is canned.

I guess folks just came down too hard on Michael Richards then! I see!

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I have to confess ... I am from a county and a very large county where out of many hundreds of thousands of people there are only 150 black people.

Wow, thats a small number of black Swiss folk. That means when I was in college there were only about 147 black people in Switzerland because three of them were in college with me!