LifeHiscost Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 the proper use of the will is to 'surrender it. The difference between the believer's acquiescence to the will of the Holy Spirit is that he is ever free to give or not to give his will. Whereas the the person unwilling to give free obedience to his/her Creator is left to fend for themselves albeit the life he/she has is life derived from the Creator. "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live..." Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV "Jesus saith unto him, I am the...truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 KJV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
bevin Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 The Bible says we have it Your understanding of Gen is the Bible says animals and computers don't free will = the difference between a human making a choice and a cat making a choice Hence the answer to the original question (is it an illusion) is ... we don't know what it is, and we can't do any experiments that detect it, but we have it... In my mind, to say that ALL humans have it (regardless of whether 1 day old or in a vegetative state) makes it an absolutely worthless platitude. /Bevin Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2007 Moderators Posted January 13, 2007 The Bible says we have it Your understanding of Gen is the Bible says animals and computers don't free will = the difference between a human making a choice and a cat making a choice Hence the answer to the original question (is it an illusion) is ... we don't know what it is, and we can't do any experiments that detect it, but we have it... In my mind, to say that ALL humans have it (regardless of whether 1 day old or in a vegetative state) makes it an absolutely worthless platitude. /Bevin It goes without saying that not ALL humans have the ability to choose God or Satan. Of course a baby 1 day old can't do it and neither can a human in a vegetative state. God doesn't expect them to. I thought this was something that did not need to be stated because we have all gotten past that point. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 It goes without saying that not ALL humans have the ability to choose God or Satan. Of course a baby 1 day old can't do it and neither can a human in a vegetative state. "As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads." [ E. G. White. ] We who can exercise choice can be justified by faith. That is a mental ascent to truth - a reception of Christ's doing and dying by faith. The Bible clearly states that justification comes by choice what the Bible terms faith. Then how are infants there since they couldn't decide? Whatever your answer please back with Scripture. Robert Quote
bevin Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Ah - so NOT all humans have choice, hence not all have free will, but all humans are created in the image of God ... So, when do humans have free will and when don't they? /Bevin Quote
Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 If I do not have free will then I cannot be held responsible for my behavior and God is injust to judge me by my deeds. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
D. Allan Posted January 13, 2007 Author Posted January 13, 2007 Quote: I'm not sure where you arrived at the word "driven", for the Scripture that is referring to Jesus temptation in the wilderness uses "led" or "guided" in the five translations to which I referenced. It must have been Mark 1:12 rather than the Matthew reference. "Immediately the Holy Spirit compelled Jesus to go into the wilderness." NLT The NIV say the Spirit "sent him out onto the desert." The KJV says "the Spirit driveth him..." It's not my intention to establish that we do or do not have free will. But to explore an interesting idea - maybe even learn something. The Singer quotation is obviously tongue-in-cheek. And not much different than John317's believing that we have no choice but to believe in free choice because of the Bible. Is it likely that free-choice is just a perception? And what difference does it make to a Christian who has surrendered their will to God, anyway? Bevin is right. We need to define what free-will is. Another thing he brings up - if we, created in God's image don't have it, then does God? Of couse we don't have all of God's attributes do we!? ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Robert Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 If I do not have free will then I cannot be held responsible for my behavior and God is injust to judge me by my deeds. You had better not be held responsible for your behavior or you'll never make it to heaven! Yes, faith is ours to excercise, but using the will to do deeds of righteousness is another thing. Look at what the converted Paul states: Romans 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. Quote
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 Hi D. Here are some verses that came to mind after reading through this thread. Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Jesus chose to do God's will both before coming to this earth and while He was here. I'll explain later why He had a choice and why we do. 2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us ; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: The word "constraineth," gives this understanding: Because we have experienced the love that Christ has for us we cannot say no to Him because we love Him so much. That means we give up our choices and desires to fulfill His choices and desires for us. e.g. I may want to stay home and watch a movie Sabbath afternoon, but when I think of His love for me I make the choice to go and share the love I have in me with others who are longing for it, I say no to the movie. Why do we do that? Because of the love we have chosen to believe that He has for us. We can reject it and say "no, that's a lie, how could He love me?" we perpetuate the lies of the devil, but when we have truly known the love of God for us we cannot easily say no to Him. John puts it this way, 1John 3:9 “whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” Not that we have no other choice but it's that we will not choose otherwise, our conscience will not permit us. Back to why we have choices and free will. When Satan came to Eve in the Garden, he said a lot of things with the few words he uttered. Here are some of them. "You can't trust God" "God is only looking out for Himself" "God is selfish" "God is a liar" "Look at me I'm telling the truth" "You can do this without penalty" The worst of his false statements was that "God is selfish" Is He? The Godhead decided before this took place that they would reveal that He, the Father, is not selfish but that He is love. The result of that would be life. The plan states that His Son volunteered/chose to leave glory and take upon Himself humanity and do for us what we cannot (save ourselves) and reveal the love of God. All that Jesus did and endured revealed that God was not selfish but that it was actually Satan that was a liar, murderer and selfish, God is love. What is this love of God? It can be found in the life of Jesus. God gave us this planet; we ruined it by giving it to Satan. God gave us life; we ruined it by giving it to Satan and inherited death. God gave us His Son; we ruined Him by giving Him to Satan to destroy. The amazing thing about all this is that God knew this would take place and consented to it anyway! He has chosen to go on trial before the universe and be accused of all that Satan had to hurl at Him. He let 1/3 of the angels go with Satan in rebellion when He could have destroyed them. He let us choose to follow Satan when He could have destroyed us (many times) This love of God cannot be explained nor can it be demonstrated without free will. Without free will there can be no love of God because selfishness is the opposite of love and is demonstrated by self will and a choice to die. Therefore, Agape can only be if there is free will. It's as if God has said "do as you please but know this, my love will draw all men to me and you can choose to accept it or reject it. If you reject it you will be a slave to Satan having no choice but to follow your own selfish evil desires and his temptations which leads to death; as life only survives in giving. Or you can choose to accept my love and you will be free to choose what you will and since you will not be motivated by selfishness, you will only choose to do that which is good so long as you choose to hear my voice." Ultimately, we choose to live or to die, to believe God or Satan, to be constrained by the love of Christ or the temptations of Satan that feeds our selfishness and leads to death. Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
D. Allan Posted January 13, 2007 Author Posted January 13, 2007 Quote: I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. Sounds like Paul's will is not free! This is great, Robert. All those people, they think they have free will but don't realize they are driven by their passions. Alcoholics have no free will. Sex abusers are driven by their passions. And on and on. People are controlled by anger, greed,...... They are not free until the Spirit touches them and sets them free. Jung calls it a numinos experience, and experience of the Holy. By the way, Jung was not an atheist. He often sent his patients back to their religion. But that's another topic. Maybe you can put it all in better words than I. The Spirit may have to drive us into our own wildernesses to break our chains. ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2007 Moderators Posted January 13, 2007 Ah - so NOT all humans have choice, hence not all have free will, but all humans are created in the image of God ... So, when do humans have free will and when don't they? /Bevin Hi Bevin, A child of 1 (your example) does not have have any knowledge of what it means to choose between God and Satan. And a person in a vegetative state (again your example) cannot possibly make such a choice because, by definition, that person has no brain functioning. God knows when a child is accountable. It's not essential for people to always know exactly when others are accountable. I have two daughters ages 15 and 18. They are obviously accountable to God now because they understand the difference between what is wrong and what is right. You can be sure they were not accountable when they were babies. That is why the SDA church does not feel it is necessary to baptize babies. God does not hold them accountable. I know you understand this but for some reason you asked. John Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
bevin Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 So only some people have free will, and we don't know which ones. That is a really useful basis for a deep philosophical discussion. /Bevin Quote
Woody Posted January 13, 2007 Posted January 13, 2007 It is not our job to know which. That is up to God. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Quote: Sounds like Paul's will [was] not free! In Romans chapter 7 Paul is discussing the converted man's will power when it comes to saying "no" to "the law of sin". He is saying that it can't be done. Sure, we can say "I won't do this", but sooner or later the nature wins. That's the context. But He goes on to say that as we learn to "walk in Spirit" God can do the willing through us. He can defeat "the law of sin". The problem is that His work in us is totally dependent on our surrender. Right....Feel bad for them. Sure, some need to be removed from society at large for protection. But we think that the "bad" people are behind bars and the rest of us are good. What we fail to understand is that given the same circumstance we would do the same thing outside of surrender. Look at David for example. He was a man of God, yet one day his nature took him on trip. By the time it was over he had repeatedly committed adultery and also had a man killed. That's why the Bible tells us not to judge, because it is very possible to do the same things outside of God's grace. Quote
Dr. Shane Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Quote: You had better not be held responsible for your behavior or you'll never make it to heaven! If we are covered by the blood of Christ, we are not judged by our deeds but rather by the deeds of Christ. However if they are not covered by the blood of Christ, they will be judged by their deeds and if they have no free will, it will be unjust to judge them by thier deeds. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Dr. Shane Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Quote: Alcoholics have no free will. Sex abusers are driven by their passions. And on and on. People are controlled by anger, greed,...... Part of recovery from these things is learning to turn one's will over to the power of God. That is, we have a choice to allow our passions to control us or allow God to control us. That is our choice. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Robert Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Quote: You had better not be held responsible for your behavior or you'll never make it to heaven! If we are covered by the blood of Christ, we are not judged by our deeds but rather by the deeds of Christ. However if they are not covered by the blood of Christ, they will be judged by their deeds and if they have no free will, it will be unjust to judge them by thier deeds. All these metaphors..man alive. Anyway, instead the reality is we have accepted our literal position "in Christ" and in Him the law actually sees a glorified humanity perfect in every way. That's the reality of the heavenly court. As long as your faith remains in your High Priest the law sees you as you are "in Christ". But the moment you say goodbye to Him you come back under the law and it sees you as you are now. Robert Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 14, 2007 Moderators Posted January 14, 2007 So only some people have free will, and we don't know which ones. That is a really useful basis for a deep philosophical discussion. /Bevin Does it bother you that only God knows the hearts and minds of people? Does it bother you that babies or people in vegetative conditions are not able to make an intelligent choice between God and Satan? Do you really find that unreasonable or otherwise unsatisfactory? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! " Rom 7:24,25 TNIV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 And what difference does it make to a Christian who has surrendered their will to God, anyway? ~d.allan The difference is whether we're asked to serve a God who appears to be a tyrant with unwilling slaves for subjects, as the prince of darkness charged in the beginning, or whether freewill plays into every action of man and angel that has led them by deceit of the enemy into fields of endeavor that lead only to death. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 KJV "Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth..." John 14:6 KJV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 The Bible clearly states that justification comes by choice what the Bible terms faith. Then how are infants there since they couldn't decide? Whatever your answer please back with Scripture. Robert I know of no Scripture text specifically identifying certain infant children as exempt from the mercy of God. I do know of a couple of Scriptures that identify promises given to people who have a concern for other's needs than their own, that in fulfillment will deliver the little children from the clutches of the enemy of God's children. "Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." Psalm 37:4 KJV Do you know any Christian parents who would not ask God to deliver their children to His kingdom. "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." Matthew 21:22 KJV Two of these promises come from the old testament and of course would only be affective for those who believe in them, the same principle for all of the Word. "But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children." Isaiah 49:25 KJV "Then he ran in and got down in front of Paul and Silas. He was shaking with fear. As he took them outside, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your family will be saved from the punishment of sin." Then Paul spoke the Word of God to him and his family." Acts 16:29-32 NLV Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! " Rom 7:24,25 TNIV Blessings!! Are you dying? Yes. Then the above is talking about what Jesus did in our humanity. That's why Paul starts Romans 8:1 with: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." [RSV] Even though we are failing there's no condemnation. Why? We are no longer under law. Quote
Robert Posted January 14, 2007 Posted January 14, 2007 I know of no Scripture text specifically identifying certain infant children as exempt from the mercy of God. If God has mercy on infants then being fair he must have mercy upon all! If not God is playing favorites. [see James 2:9] Romans 11:32 "For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all." Quote
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: What we fail to understand is that given the same circumstance we would do the same thing outside of surrender. Yes, we are no better sinners than any other sinners! Even surrender we find impossible until the Spirit makes it possible. Just one touch is all it takes to give us the desire to surrender. Surrender is "dying" and can take time. In Rom. 7 Paul speak of the uselessness of his will-power. "Walking in the Spirit" God does the willing you say. But He does even more than that -"for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Php. 2:13 Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Woody Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Oh Good ... It is GOD that does the acting of good works in my life. I think that since it is Him that does it ... I am off the hook. I think it must be His fault if there are not enough good works in my life. He just needs to do a better job of willing and doing those good works in me. Am I off base or not ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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