Is Free-Will an Illusion?

[LifeHiscost]

What you need to read is "Light, on the dark side of God". Get it? This lady sheds light (from the Bible) on God's so called "dark side". Robert

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

What you need to read is "Light, on the dark side of God". Get it? This lady sheds light (from the Bible) on God's so called "dark side". Robert

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

The key to the kingdom is to have Jesus's perfect life and sacrifice in the place of my sinful life. They will not be the keys to heaven.

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matt 16:19 NASB

The words of Jesus clearly reveal the keys to the kingdom will be given to His servants before being raised to perfection.

[Dr. Shane]

God has Satan on a leash. The only things Satan is in control of are those that God allows him to control.

I guess we need to go back to the book of Job.

Quote:

And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. (Job 1:12)

Here we see that Satan had to get permission from God to do any harm to Job or his family. And even then, God placed restrictions on what Satan was allowed to do.

Sounds to me like... "this is my Father's world"

[D. Allan]

Just tagging on here: I wonder how much choice God has about the "problem of evil." Is God's "free-will" an illusion too? Is He bound by the laws of physics, logic, natural selection and love? If He is constrained by nothing at all, than He is impassive, oblivious and unconcerned, viewing all with immense equanimity.

If you don't like that idea. Try this: God lives in your heart (that is heaven), if you want Him to do something about suffering and evil, look into your heart, get up off your chair and do something about it. That is the way God works in this world. He has incarnated himself in all that is. If any suffering happens it is God that it happens to and who is suffering. "For inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, you have done it unto me." -or words to that effect. Do good and not evil - and thus fight suffering. But since you have no free will you can only wait until God brings your false idea of self, (that is your ego) into the dust so that you may realize He taking care of all - then you may enter into His joy, peace and equanimity.

-All God's creatures are his family and he is the most beloved of God who does most good to God's creatures. -Muhammad (c. 570-632 A.D.)

"

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The key to the kingdom is to have Jesus's perfect life and sacrifice in the place of my sinful life. They will not be the keys to heaven.

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matt 16:19 NASB

The words of Jesus clearly reveal the keys to the kingdom will be given to His servants before being raised to perfection.

Life ... You have followed an old Adventist tradition and taken my words out of context. I would invite you to include all the words I wrote so I will paste them here.

"I would have to disagree with this. The key to the kingdom is to have Jesus's perfect life and sacrifice in the place of my sinful life. The time for perfection of character is when we see His face. Then we will change and our works will be perfected. They will be as filty rags here on this earth. They will merit us NOTHING here on this earth. They will not be the keys to heaven. "

The last sentence states that the "keys" are not our works. And yes the "keys" will be given to us before being raised to perfection .I agree and have stated so here.

[Robert]

God has Satan on a leash. The only things Satan is in control of are those that God allows him to control.

[Robert]

And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. (Job 1:12)

Why would God allow Satan to mistreat Job so badly? Why did Job had to go through all those terrible crises without any purpose other than the traditional view, "to prove to Satan that God was right" and that Job wouldn't sin? The traditional view doesn't seem to fit with what I know of God’s character.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I just read through most of this and have some thoughts.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Adam and Eve were given the earth and all living creatures. They belonged to them as a gift from God. They were also given access to the tree of life and were permitted to live forever if they avoided the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

When they disobeyed God by believing the lies they gave up the dominion of the animals and gave the earth to Satan. It was no longer theirs.

When Jesus came to this earth He redeemed us and regained the earth for us. There was a problem with that because the earth is in no condition to be given as a gift. So God through Christ will create and new heaven and a new earth and this will be given to us along with a seat in the throne of Christ.

Today the earth is under the control of Satan and so are the animals. The only reason God has not destroyed this planet yet is because His children are here and a lot of them need to know of the gift that is awaiting them.

It's like this: you buy a piece of property and it's yours paid in full. Then the government comes along and says we have to build a highway through your property and you have now lost your property and there's nothing you can do about it. Satan now has control of this planet but there is coming a time when a new earth will displace him and his.

So both views are valid; God owns the earth and Satan owns the property if you will.

Just a note on why Mrs Job was spared and his children were not.

God told Satan not to take his life right? Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Mrs Job and Job are one in God's eyes and therefore Satan could not kill Mrs Job. He could have done to her what he did to Job but the man is the head and in this case, because of what was at stake, if Job sinned then Mrs job would have been destroyed as well.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob

you said,

Quote:

Why would God allow Satan to mistreat Job so badly? Why did Job had to go through all those terrible crises without any purpose other than the traditional view, "to prove to Satan that God was right" and that Job wouldn't sin? The traditional view doesn't seem to fit with what I know of God’s character.

Reasons why this happened was to give us an understanding of the controversy between Christ and Satan. That is an important fact in understanding the Gospel and the doctrines found in the Bible that we as Seventh-day Adventist believe. It also gives us an understand of what is happening when we are being attacked by Satan. We know God is not doing this and this gives us hope and prevents us from becoming confused about God's thoughts and feelings about us.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

Life ... You have followed an old Adventist tradition and taken my words out of context.

If the words given have no truth to reveal unless in the context they are given, then none of what Jesus said while on earth are of any value for us, since the context would demand that Jesus be present in the flesh when they are repeated as that was the context when given.

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live...., but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 KJV

You will notice that certain words were left out of the text above but that does not negate the truth of the Words remaining.

Also it is of importance to recognize in the text referred to (by myself) for conclusive evidence that the keys of the kingdom would be given to the servants of Christ before translation, the verses say in the translations (5) drawn from, it does not say "keys to the kingdom", but, "keys of the kingdom".

My understanding is that English prepositions were not used in the original Hebrew language, leaving it to the translators to determine whether "of" or "to" was more appropriate.

Since I find it highly unlikely anyone will enter the kingdom of heaven without the "keys", it does not appear to me to be a stretch of the imagination that when God said He gave gifts to men, among those gifts given would be righteousness. Technically (speaking in a spiritual sense) since we have no righteousness of our own that is not as filthy rags, the gift of righteousness would have to be the righteousness of Christ, which we carry around in the unholy vessels of which we are.

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?For You alone are holy;For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU,FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." Revelation 15:4 NASB Emph theirs LHC

“ The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it? " Jer 17:9 NKJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

"Sounds to me like... "this is my Father's world"

Looking at God as being Sovereign I find it not unusual to see this world as His. However, from my perspective I see the world in general in the same light as I see those who refuse His ownership of themselves.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44 KJV

I understand the leash you speak of as effective, in most cases, as the person who submits themselves to our Father's care. At this point of time all the world can be thankful God has not removed His hand of mercy fully, and that submission to His Words

gives promises of reward to those who strive to glorify Him, of greater positive eternal results, as righteousness is greater than evil.

"Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you."

Hosea 10:12 KJV

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? " Matt 5:44-46 TNIV

"Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard." Proverbs 13:15 KJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Reasons why this happened was to give us an understanding of the controversy between Christ and Satan. That is an important fact in understanding the Gospel and the doctrines found in the Bible that we as Seventh-day Adventist believe. It also gives us an understand of what is happening when we are being attacked by Satan. We know God is not doing this and this gives us hope and prevents us from becoming confused about God's thoughts and feelings about us. Norman

I know you have not excluded other reasons as why the circumstances of Job's trials were allowed to be perpetrated on him. I would like to suggest that many have seen Job as undeserving of such trial, and therefore see God as unjust in what He permits, looking upon Him as allowing the same desserts whether a man performs righteously or not.

There have been people of the Jewish faith, who, looking on the holocaust, would prefer not to be in the "chosen" race, rather than be afflicted as a race as they surely have been.

While it is true there is a special message for people, that misery and affliction have never been God's first choice in the discipline of His children. However if that is the only reason given to explain His woes, many who might otherwise listen to other reasons if opened to their understanding, will have greater possibility of accepting the Lord of glory as fulfilling all righteousness, even in His treatment of the seemingly righteous.

I'm of the opinion that Job was also in danger of going to his grave thinking he had been treated entirely unjust by the God He knew to be Sovereign, if he had not been given the mercy of enlightenment that helped him finally understand that there was no righteous act of his that could ever be enough to gain him safety from the wiles of the evil one. Otherwise these following texts would have no basis for inclusion in his story.

" For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me,And what I dreaded has happened to me." Job 3:25 NKJV

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." 1 John 4:18 NASB

"Wilt thou even annul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be justified? " Job 40:8 ASV

"'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'

"Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,

Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."

'Hear, now, and I will speak;

I will ask You, and You instruct me.'

"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;

But now my eye sees You;

Therefore I retract,

And I repent in dust and ashes." " Job 42:3-6

NASB

It took 42 books for Job to come to this position. Could this have something to do with the trouble and trial we often face on this earth?

Blessing!!

[Woody]

Hi Rob

you said,

Quote:

Why would God allow Satan to mistreat Job so badly? Why did Job had to go through all those terrible crises without any purpose other than the traditional view, "to prove to Satan that God was right" and that Job wouldn't sin? The traditional view doesn't seem to fit with what I know of Gods character.

Reasons why this happened was to give us an understanding of the controversy between Christ and Satan. That is an important fact in understanding the Gospel and the doctrines found in the Bible that we as Seventh-day Adventist believe. It also gives us an understand of what is happening when we are being attacked by Satan. We know God is not doing this and this gives us hope and prevents us from becoming confused about God's thoughts and feelings about us.

Norman

The theme of the Great Controversy is that we sinful humans will decide to follow Jesus based on who Jesus is ... NOT because of material or physical blessings that might come from serving Him. It is the charge of Satan that the only reason we sinners follow Christ is because of the blessings that we are given. Job had those blessings taken away from him as an example that we could decide for Christ.

Jesus has his hands tied on this earth. He is not allowed to bless us or Satan will say ... I told you so. Now the only way allowable for us to receive blessings in the Great Controversy theme is to have God's people do the blessings to their fellow men. They are in a sense ... God's arm and God's hands because God's hands are tied. We are here on this earth to bless one another because God can't. Only God in us can bless one another.

Yes ... God's hands are tied but they are tied for a good reason. And in the end ... we know who wins and who will be victorious. He will then be shown to be a just God and ALL will serve Him and He will serve us. His name will be vindicated but for now He has to withhold his blessings from this earth. So ... you will see all kinds of horrible death etc that Satan is in charge of. God will only allow this for a time and then He will come and restore the earth.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Jesus has his hands tied on this earth..........

Yes ... God's hands are tied but they are tied for a good reason.

So God's 'free-will' is an illusion too! His actions are determined by satan.

[Dr. Shane]

I wasn't expecting such easy questions on this board but I will go ahead and answer although I suspect most members here already know what the Bible teaches.

Quote:

Why would a God of love let Satan hurt anyone?

Ezek. 28:16 "Thine [satan's] heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

God allows Satan to hurt others in order to expose who Satan is to the universe.

Quote:

Job's kids and servants die, yet apparently she too is protected. Doesn't seem just at all....

Thus Satan is exposed. This reflects on his charachter, not God's. Notice what Satan's aspirations are...

Isaiah 14:13, 14: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Now why would Satan want to take God's place unless Satan felt he could do the job better? That seems to be why God is exposing Satan. God is letting everyone see what kind of government Satan would run if Satan were in charge.

After this sin-experiment is over God will take care of Satan. "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Because God is in control. This is my Father's world.

[Dr. Shane]

Ex. 19:5 " Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine"

Deut. 10:14 "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is."

Psalms 24:1 " The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein."

Pslams 47:2 "For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth."

Psalms 50:12 "If I [God] were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof."

1 Cor. 10:26 "For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof."

No wonder He was asking Satan why he was present with the sons of God in heaven?

This is my Father's world.

[Woody]

This Earth IS the Lords. And He can do with it what He wants.

He has chosen to give it in holding to Satan. But, in the end ... The Lord will reclaim it and all will see that He is Just.

[Robert]

God allows Satan to hurt others in order to expose who Satan is to the universe.

[Robert]

"all the earth is mine"

As creator, true! But as ruler now, no! God gave dominion of this world to Adam. Adam gave it to Satan. Satan is the god of this world. Self-love and selfishness abound, even in the church. Satan's self-love is seen throughout the world.

[Woody]

Well said Robert.

I like the term "enemy territory". Yes ... this is Satan's territory. If you think otherwise ... you are really deceived.

With all the evil we see in this world ... I don't see how anyone is credible in saying this is our Fathers World.

This world is not my home ... I'm just a passin thru. My treasures are laid up ... somewhere beyond the blue. The angels becone me from heavens open door and I won't feel at home ... in this world anymore.

[Robert]

This Earth IS the Lords. And He can do with it what He wants.

[Robert]

This world is not my home ... I'm just a passin thru.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people [Abraham, Noah, etc] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one.

[Dr. Shane]

Pslams 47:2 "For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth."

King Jesus. The King doesn't wash the dishes. The King doesn't mop floors. The King doesn't do the cooking. The King isn't a servant. The King is the Master. The King is the Ruler. The servants can only do what the King allows them to do.

This is my Father's world.

[Woody]

I would not be a Christian if this is what we get. If this is my Fathers world ... I reject Him.