Robert Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Oh Good ... It is GOD that does the acting of good works in my life. I think that since it is Him that does it ... I am off the hook. I think it must be His fault if there are not enough good works in my life. He just needs to do a better job of willing and doing those good works in me. Am I off base or not ? Off base... One thing that I have learned about God's selfless, agape love is that He will never impose Himself on you. So God doesn't just automatically take over. So if Christ is to be seen through your actions you must be willing to cooperate, but never to gain heaven. Quote
Woody Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 So ... if I lack works then it is because of my refusal? OR is it because I am a sinner and I do the very things I don't want to do.?? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: Part of recovery from these things is learning to turn one's will over to the power of God. That is, we have a choice to allow our passions to control us or allow God to control us. That is our choice. One can't turn his/her will over to God until s/he has given up the illusion that they are "in control." Maybe it is not so much an act of will to give over control. Maybe it finally that we come to the realization that we are not in control contrary to our believe in our free will. " ...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Php. 3:13 In other words if God is your co-pilot, change seats! I'm in the plane (my body and mind)just for the ride. The pilot says, "Where do you want to go?" I say, "Oh, I don't know. Where do you want to go? (sound familiar? ) He says, "Orly airports coming up. Lets go through the Louve, I want to show you some things I did. People say, Leonardo da Vinci painted that famous picture, but actually I did through Him." "Oh, Really!" After Paris there is St. Petersburg. Rome, Jerusalem. There are so many things in this world He has to show me. So I let Him fly my plane. One of these days it will wear out and we will have to crash land some place. But He and I are one. I no longer live, Paul said. But the life i live i live though Him. That is where I want to be. I can't do it. Only He can do it. I don't even exist! That is where Jesus was at. His ego, his normal self-image was dead. He identified not with the illusion of his ego and its will-power but with the Spirit and thus He said, I AM the Light, I AM the truth, etc. He had no other identity because His ego had died. He was born again of the Spirit. ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 15, 2007 Members Posted January 15, 2007 Oh Good ... It is GOD that does the acting of good works in my life. I think that since it is Him that does it ... I am off the hook. I think it must be His fault if there are not enough good works in my life. He just needs to do a better job of willing and doing those good works in me. Am I off base or not ? Doesn't it mean that God *gifts* a person with the will to do good works? Or perhaps I am off base? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: Doesn't it mean that God *gifts* a person with the will to do good works? Or perhaps I am off base? That's a good way to put it. I like it. He 'gifts' us with HIS will. I don't think we have come up yet with a definition of 'free-will.' Could we say, free-will can produce an event involving the body or mind of a human, which corresponds to that persons intentions and yet happens without a cause. (i found this in Philosophy for Dummies, a Reference for the Rest of Us. p.139) It has to be without cause, otherwise it would be determined by an endless sequence of causes stretching back to the beginning. By that definition it seems that we will have to say that only God has free will. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: So ... if I lack works then it is because of my refusal? OR is it because I am a sinner and I do the very things I don't want to do.?? Relax. SomeONE else is piloting the airplane. If you don't have good works it is God's responsibity. EVERYthing comes from HIM. "Every good and perfect gift..." "Every good impluse," comes from HIM. He that abideth in my love will bring forth much fruit. - Jesus ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Dr. Shane Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: One can't turn his/her will over to God until s/he has given up the illusion that they are "in control." No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.(Matt. 6:24) An addict or alcoholic is the epitome of fallen man. The textbook Alcoholics Anonymous outlines the alcoholic's choice 1) die an alcoholic death 2) live life on a spiritual basis. This is the extent of the alcholic's free will. He or she can either choose to be a slave to alcohol or a slave to God. To that extent, he or she has free will. In the alcoholic's case this is easy to see and understand. However it is no different for any other sinner. We either choose to serve sin or serve God. We cannot serve both God and mammon. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 If God has mercy on infants then being fair he must have mercy upon all! And your point is?? I ask as it seemed to be selfevident in the previous post, although I give God the right to decide what is fair and what He must do. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 [ We are no longer under law. I'm wondering which of the Ten Commandments you choose to disregard and expect not to suffer negative repercussions since you're not under Law. Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 One can't turn his/her will over to God until s/he has given up the illusion that they are "in control." Maybe it is not so much an act of will to give over control. Maybe it finally that we come to the realization that we are not in control contrary to our believe in our free will. " ...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Php. 3:13 In other words if God is your co-pilot, change seats! I'm in the plane (my body and mind)just for the ride. ~d.allan To explore the full capability of explanation in our relationship to our Father's control over those who place their will at His disposal is beyond my ability to explain. However I do know He does not take away my ability to choose once He has set me free from the enemies devices. What you have written above I'm pleased to accept with the addition of cooperation on our part insofar as we are able. "....apart from me ye can do nothing. " John 15:5 ASV "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" Colossians 1:27 KJV "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26 KJV In this last Scripture I noticed the word "with" used in conjunction with "God", implying God/we work in concert with each other, a perfect representation of God being in control while allowing us to choose with free will. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Am I off base or not ? I read a thought by a Christian writer that seemed to put it in perspective. Paraphrasing as I can't remember word for word. ' When we submit ourselves to following the will of God we will be but thinking His thoughts after Him. Sounds much like a child who loves his father and fulfills the idiom, "Like father, like son." Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Doesn't it mean that God *gifts* a person with the will to do good works? Seems like you've been gifted, Rudy. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: To explore the full capability of explanation in our relationship to our Father's control over those who place their will at His disposal is beyond my ability to explain. However I do know He does not take away my ability to choose once He has set me free from the enemies devices. What you have written above I'm pleased to accept with the addition of cooperation on our part insofar as we are able. "....apart from me ye can do nothing. " John 15:5 ASV To me, the verse you quoted indicates that apart from Him we can not even cooperate. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: An addict or alcoholic is the epitome of fallen man. The textbook Alcoholics Anonymous outlines the alcoholic's choice 1) die an alcoholic death 2) live life on a spiritual basis. This is the extent of the alcholic's free will. He or she can either choose to be a slave to alcohol or a slave to God. To that extent, he or she has free will. In the alcoholic's case this is easy to see and understand. However it is no different for any other sinner. We either choose to serve sin or serve God. We cannot serve both God and mammon. I don't know how much choice an alcoholic has if any. Maybe s/he finally comes to realize the s/he is not in control, and never will be apart from God. S/he has finally come to the point of desiring to be free. Where did that desire come from? "Every good impulse" and "every good and perfect gift" comes from above. You said earlier that if we have no free will then God does not have the right to punish us. I agree. But if we are modifying our behaviors in order to escape punishment then we are certainly not acting freely. It is the purest Skinnerian Determinism. Behavor modification by reward and punishment. Surely God expects us to see through those threats of punishment! Perhaps He wants to bring us to the realization that we do not have free will apart from Him... from Him who is Pure Love Without a Cause! If we live in Love we live in God and He lives in us. That is what the disciple John said in one of his letters. Perhaps God wants to bring us to the REALIZATION that we are not apart from Him who is Love Without A Cause. And never have been. When we realize that- then we are free, and we know we are living in that LOVE. We are ONE with Him. Its a Spiritual truth, a fact, no matter if a person realizes it or not. An ancient Christian hymn has these words: Awake, oh Sleeper, and the light of Christ will shine upon you. We do not even exist apart from Him. We have no free-will apart from Him and the only way to have it is to live in Love That Has No Cause. That is 'walking in the Spirit.' ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
David Koot Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Relax. SomeONE else is piloting the airplane. If you don't have good works it is God's responsibity. That is error. Various species of error exist. For example, there is harmless error, and there is deadly error. This one is deadly error. Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: One can't turn his/her will over to God until s/he has given up the illusion that they are "in control." No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.(Matt. 6:24) An addict or alcoholic is the epitome of fallen man. The textbook Alcoholics Anonymous outlines the alcoholic's choice 1) die an alcoholic death 2) live life on a spiritual basis. This is the extent of the alcholic's free will. He or she can either choose to be a slave to alcohol or a slave to God. To that extent, he or she has free will. In the alcoholic's case this is easy to see and understand. However it is no different for any other sinner. We either choose to serve sin or serve God. We cannot serve both God and mammon. Let me follow more on this post, Shane. The opening quote summed it up quite nicely: The issue is control. The crux about which redemption teeters (like a see-saw) is free will: for the individual to be "in control" necessarily means God is not, no matter how one wishes to perceive the individual (i.e., member of the church in "good standing", nothing un-toward noted by those around the individual would be an excellent cover for the one wishing to keep control of themselves). Likewise, if God is in control, the individiual is necessarily not - that person is submitted to God. It matters not how rough their character and walk is; God is in control, and will from the inside out transform that person not into what we think their righteousness should look like, but into the Likeness of His Son - whose outward deportment while on earth stirred up much controversy and emotion even among His own followers. All are given a measure of faith, as noted by the Word. That measure of faith is useless unless there is also a corresponding free will to exercise that faith. Now, just to speak from mine own life's perspective: there is no such thing as "cannot do", unless there are physical/intelectual limitations to consider (i.e., the poor cannot buy a Fortune 500 company in their own economy, the wheelchair-bound cannot get up and run, and the one gifted with an IQ < 70 cannot do basic college calculus). However, the will does not have such a limitation placed upon it. The vast majority of the time, when someone says they "cannot", the proper truth is that they "will not". The picture of the sinner being likened to an addict is quite accurate. The addict always has a choice whether to indulge in their addiction. They may feel they have no choice; they may feel they are helpless to combat their addiction(s), that they have no control over who they are, due to the strength and pervasiveness of their addiction. But it is a matter of will whether they wish to continue is this way or not. Likewise with the sinner - we may feel we have no choice but to indulge the flesh, helpless to combat sin, and feel that God's grace is but a cover for our continual sinning, because the flesh, the addiction, is just too strong, too pervasive, for us to be any different. Yet, this, too is but an issue of will - whether we want to remain in bondage to the flesh. It is at this point where we may use our free will - to appeal to God and cede to Him that which we cannot control, or to remain in the "comfortable, know-what-to-expect" existence in the flesh - whether we think we are "in control" or not. It could also be said that those who've not had a Romans 7 type experience are much more likely to feel "in control" of their flesh than the so-called "sinners"...and it matters not whether they are born and raised "in the faith" or if they hold to the "Post-Modern" ideas of emotion and security over the authority of the Word of God. What matters is not what one is now, in the flesh, but what they may choose God to transform them into, day by day, as submitted to the will of God. Ted Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Originally Posted By: D. Allan Relax. SomeONE else is piloting the airplane. If you don't have good works it is God's responsibity. That is error. Various species of error exist. For example, there is harmless error, and there is deadly error. This one is deadly error. If God is flying the airplane please don't mess with the controls. Phil.1:6 "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion..." Phil.2:13 "...for it is God who works in you to will and to act acording to his good purpose." John 15:5 "I AM the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." Our job is to trust God and we cannot even do that without the help of his Spirit. Why did the Isrealites attack Jerico with only trumpets for weapons? To show that the trusted only in the works of God not their own power. ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Woody Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Regarding "if God is in control" I would like to point out that .... that is a BIG "IF" . Personally ... I don't find the thought that God is in control of this earth as being credible. Unless you call control giving up control !! In the picture of the Great Controversy ... God has given this earth over to Satan. This earth is Satan's domain as given to him by God. God does not want to interfer or Satan would claim victory. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: Likewise, if God is in control, the individiual is necessarily not - that person is submitted to God. It matters not how rough their character and walk is; God is in control, and will from the inside out transform that person not into what we think their righteousness should look like, but into the Likeness of His Son - whose outward deportment while on earth stirred up much controversy and emotion even among His own followers. I like the way you said that. ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
D. Allan Posted January 15, 2007 Author Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: It could also be said that those who've not had a Romans 7 type experience are much more likely to feel "in control" of their flesh than the so-called "sinners"...and it matters not whether they are born and raised "in the faith" or if they hold to the "Post-Modern" ideas of emotion and security over the authority of the Word of God. What matters is not what one is now, in the flesh, but what they may choose God to transform them into, day by day, as submitted to the will of God. Ted I appreciate your perceptive comments. Blessings on you! ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Dr. Shane Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Quote: Where did that desire come from? "Every good impulse" and "every good and perfect gift" comes from above. This is true, however we can resist the Holy Spirit. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 15, 2007 Members Posted January 15, 2007 Regarding "if God is in control" I would like to point out that .... that is a BIG "IF" . Personally ... I don't find the thought that God is in control of this earth as being credible. Unless you call control giving up control !! In the picture of the Great Controversy ... God has given this earth over to Satan. This earth is Satan's domain as given to him by God. God does not want to interfer or Satan would claim victory. Huh??? God is not in control??? That's kinda scary.. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 That is right Pam. For instance ... God is not in control of you. He has given YOU free will and you are in control of who controls your life. Satan has been cast down on the earth . He has been given control of the earth. So ... unless YOU decide to let God control ... Satan has dominion over all on this earth and he will control you. We are all naturally sinful and controlled by Satan. We have to make the choice to allow God to be central over our lives. But Praise God He has made provisions that allow us to pick whom we will serve. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 Rudy ... Another way to look at my statement would be to say ... IF God is in control of this earth ... I personally would reject God and would not have any desire to live in heaven. If heaven is to be just like this earth ... why bother. No ... in heaven ... God will be supreme. All in heaven will serve him. The natural human desire to follow Satan will be gone and replaced with the desire to Love and serve God. Now that will be heaven for me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 15, 2007 Members Posted January 15, 2007 Could someone explain the relationship between *control* and *choice* ? The boundaries of the meanings seem to have gotten blurred... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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