Is Free-Will an Illusion?

[Ted Oplinger]

[bubbling up through the murky depths, the ol' scaly gator silently surfaces...Crikey! He's going for the control issue!]

Quote:

Could someone explain the relationship between *control* and *choice*

I get just a little amused when the issue of sin and free will comes up, as this question always appears, without fail.

First of all, *control* is that which one has the exercise of complete command over. Notice the word, complete. With respect to our experience in the flesh, control can be considered either an abstract thing or a concrete truth, depending upon one's level of perspective and usage.

Confused yet?

Okay, here's the concrete: I sit down at the table, I lift a fork with food on it, place the food in my mouth, then chew and swallow it. One can reasonably say I have *controlled* my muscles and produced the process called eating - that I have control over my body to produce the desired effect.

Now, here's the abstract: we throw in the intangibles of anxiety and appetite. I do the above actions because psychologically, I have anxiety and depression because of life's circumstance, and these manifest themselves as appetite for food my body really isn't hungry for or needs - I eat because it brings comfort.

Can I really say then I'm in complete control of my eating? At one level, that of actually eating, yes, I'm controlling my actions; however, there is a compulsion driving these actions that indicate something else is in control at a higher level. I may very well know this is driving me to overeating/binge eating, but somehow the driving force is strong, and there is a sense of comfort after indulging that makes the choice to submit desireable. In short, it feels good, though the guilty feelings later on after stepping on the scales will bring back the unwelcome anxiety and melancholy feelings that lead back to....

To wit, I am not really *in control*, even though I may try to convince myself and others that I am.

Now, let's add the third part of the argument, also having both intangible and tangible parts. God interjects into the cycle and holds out an third option: Surrender the compulsions over to Him, no matter how good the feeling is that the desires promise.

Now, we must face a very hard fact: we are NOT really in *control* of ourselves; our compulsions drive us...even in those labors and deeds we call "good", or are for "good causes"

God places us at the point of *choice* - to surrender our wills to Him, or surrender to those things which drive our appetites, desires, lusts, and other self-driven compulsions.

Now, it's easy to get wrapped up in the notion that we're all helpless pawns in all this, but really, we are truly agents of free choice.

Satan cannot force us to commit unrighteousness, and God cannot force us to walk righteously.

There is a direct method as to how each works - both diametrically opposed to one another.

Satan works through the impulses and desires of the flesh to enslave the mind and will, effectively gaining control of your will by slowly and depriving you of accepting any other choice other than that of enslavement to sin and desires/compulsions of the flesh.

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

The end here is the picture of the quintessential addict, bound in misery, wanting an escape yet completely convinced s/he cannot make any other choice but to continue their path spiralling downward. Satan gains full control here.

God, on the other hand, works through the mind to free the will, and bring to naught the impulses/compulsions of sin and fleshly desires.

Here's the illustration in Jesus as to how He does this...

John 5:30: "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

In other words, Lesson One is yielding to God on the control issue.

John 8:28: "So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me."

Lesson One: God interacts and teaches us, as deeply and personally as we would allow.

God teaches to the mind, and leads us to choose what He would do in that moment of circumstance. Surrender now becomes an issue of enabling choice (or of walking in the Law of Liberty, as the book of James puts it). Surrender to God allows God to subjugate the impulses of the flesh, so that we are free to act righteously according to His lead.

John 12:49,50 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Lesson One: If it matters to the salvation of even a single person, God has given commandment for it. God teaches and commands on a certain point, and the one trusting in Him will teach, speak and do as God has commanded Him - not out of compulsion, but from a free will choice to return back to God as He has laid the pattern for us to walk.

(Note: they were all labeled "Lesson One" on purpose)

Now, for Romans 8:10-15...

"If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Here again are my points illustrated (in bold above): 1)God releases us from being obligated to live according to the whims of our flesh, and 2)the Christian experience is the same lead/follow example seen in Christ's own words above.

The choice? Choosing to accept the leadership, then choosing to follow that leadership by repeating the example.

Ted

[the ol' gator, having succeeded in making a big, bloody mess of this response, swims off to lurk some more, allowing the issues of control and choice to flail weakly in the waters...onlookers gasping in bewilderment as to what they've just seen)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

egads man. Just forget I asked..

[Woody]

I second that Pam.

After trying to read through that ... I think I would rather eat dirt.

[Ted Oplinger]

I get the feeling, ladies, that you thought you got chewed out...that was not my intent at all.

I was attempting to "un-blur" the lines between *control* and *choice*, as requested.

My apologies if my reply, or the way it was worded, came on way too strong for you.

Ted

[the Deacon slides slowly back into the cooled water, swimming off toward warmer waters....]

[Robert]

Rudy ... Another way to look at my statement would be to say ... IF God is in control of this earth ... I personally would reject God...

Right, Satan is called the God of this world. In another place he is called the Lord of this world. His principle of "self" is seen through out it....

Note the following:

Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit 2 for forty days in the wilderness, tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry. 3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” 4 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’” 5 And the devil took him up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours.”

[Robert]

God is not in control??? That's kinda scary..

Look around you...how many are dying daily? Cancer, murder, accidents, wars, etc....No, Satan's principle of "self" is alive and well and it brings death.

God is in control as far a humanity allows Him to work in their midst. But like the flood, when humanity at large turns its back on God, He removes Himself. So God, working through believers, adds salt do a dying world. It keeps it from rotting so fast....

Rob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Satan said:

Quote:

To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours.

And what makes anyone think Uncle Satan is telling the truth?

[Woody]

The Bible says it is true. Jesus says it is true.

You can take Satan to the bank on this one. Why do you think he tried so hard to tempt Jesus.

If you doubt that this is Satan's world ... take a look around and say ... Would I want to serve the man in charge here"????

[Robert]

Satan said:

Quote:

To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it shall all be yours.

And what makes anyone think Uncle Satan is telling the truth?

Jesus didn't dispute his claim.

Also:

1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

2 Cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

[Robert]

While sin originated in the mind of Lucifer in heaven, it was never allowed to develop in heaven. It was on this earth that Satan and his angels developed sin. Let us see how this was done:

* Genesis 1:26, 28. God created this earth for man and, therefore, gave him dominion over it.

* Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own; this is based on the principle recorded in 2 Peter 2:19. Please note that Jesus did not question Satan’s claim that the world was delivered to him.

* John 14:30. Since the fall of man, Satan has become the “prince of this world.”

* 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul refers to Satan as the “god of this world.”

* 1 John 5:19. The whole world, apart from the Christian, is under the control of Satan, or as the Greek text actually says, “the wicked one.”

* 2 Peter 2:19. Man defeated by Satan is in bondage (slavery) to him [John 8:34; Romans 6:17].

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

In the New Testament and especially in the book of Revelation the term “Babylon” is used as a symbol to represent the spiritual kingdom of this world which is under Satan and is in opposition to God’s kingdom and His people [Revelation 14:8, 17:3-6; 18:1-3]. The basis of this symbol is founded in literal Babylon of the Old Testament, the capital of the once-greatest empire this world has ever known [read Daniel 2]. According to Dan. 4:30, the great city of Babylon was built on the principle of self-love and, therefore, represents a fitting symbol of Satan’s kingdom. In contrast, “Jerusalem,” which represents Christ’s kingdom, is from above and is called “the holy city” [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 21:10].

Because Satan is a liar and a deceiver there is much of this world that appears to be good (this is especially designed to be a trap for Christians), but at the end of the world, when Satan will be completely exposed, it will be seen that the whole world (good and bad) worships the dragon “that deceived the whole world” [Revelation 12:9; 13:3-4]. God has allowed Satan to have his own way and develop sin in this world for some 6,000 years. But the time has come when Satan and his kingdom must be exposed and destroyed forever [2 Peter 3:10-13; Psalm 92:7-9].

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So this isn't my Father's world?

[Robert]

So this isn't my Father's world?

I think whoever wrote that was a bit delusional.

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

"....apart from me ye can do nothing. " John 15:5 ASV

To me, the verse you quoted indicates that apart from Him we can not even cooperate.

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12 KJV

Since one has to have life to be able to cooperate, what you have said makes all the more sense.

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

What matters is not what one is now, in the flesh, but what they may choose God to transform them into, day by day, as submitted to the will of God. Ted

That's good, a key to the kingdom.

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"

Matt 7:11 NKJV

Blessings!!

[David Koot]

So this isn't my Father's world?

Yes, Pam, it is our Father's world. It is God's world and, above and behind the scenes, God is in control. He only allows satan to go so far, and then He stops him. At any time, God is fully able to accomplish His will. At the same time, because of Who He is, God honors the choices made by individuals and, within limits, allows those choices to play out. But, He still works to bring good out of even our poor choices.

Dave

[D. Allan]

PS 50:10 for every animal of the forest is mine,

and the cattle on a thousand hills.

PS 50:11 I know every bird in the mountains,

and the creatures of the field are mine.

PS 50:12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,

for the world is mine, and all that is in it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

So this isn't my Father's world?

Yes, Pam, it is our Father's world.

[Robert]

... for the world is mine, and all that is in it.

Again, in the sense that He was the creator. But now ask yourself, "The creator of what - perfection or imperfection?" God is the creator of perfection:

"And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." [Gen 1:31]

Is it "good" now?

"For the creation [God's perfection creation] was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of him [Adam] who subjected it...." [Romans 8:20]

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Yes, Pam, it is our Father's world.

A voice of reason. Thank you.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

What matters is not what one is now, in the flesh, but what they may choose God to transform them into, day by day, as submitted to the will of God. Ted

That's good, a key to the kingdom.

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"

Matt 7:11 NKJV

Blessings!!

I would have to disagree with this. The key to the kingdom is to have Jesus's perfect life and sacrifice in the place of my sinful life. The time for perfection of character is when we see His face. Then we will change and our works will be perfected. They will be as filty rags here on this earth. They will merit us NOTHING here on this earth. They will not be the keys to heaven.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Job 1:6 - Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.

These sons of God were representatives of the various planets God has created. Adam was our representative "Adam, the son of God." (Luke 3:38) Since Adam sinned and died, Christ took his place "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:21, 22) So now Christ is the "the anointed one, the prince" "Michael your prince" "the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people" (Dan. 9:25; 10:21; 12:1).

Now let;s get back to Job. Notice God's reaction to Satan.

Quote:

And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?

Now God knew where Satan had come. The question is really "What right do you have to be here?" or "What world are you representing?"

Satan responds...

Quote:

From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

He claims that he is Earth's representative. And God responds to that claim.

Quote:

Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

In other words, God says, "Not so fast there, dragonman. I still have loyal believers there. That Earth ain't yours."

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, Pam, it is our Father's world.

A voice of reason. Thank you.

A voice of the traditional thought which is without thought.

If God is in control of the evil that happens then He is not a God that I wish to serve.

I think you will have to agree that a loving God can't be "in charge" of all the evil that Satan is in charge of. The Great Controversy says that God's hands are tied. He must show to the Universe what Satans ways result in. This is the planet that Satan has been banished to. And God has to play by certain rules to show how evil Satan's ways are.

Yes ... God's hands are tied if His name is to be vindicated before the Universe. But yes ... God has chosen to play by the rules. He is not in control of the earth's evil but He will be in charge in the end when He takes control and ends all the evil.

So ... in the end ... this is our Fathers world but not now.

[Robert]

Quote:

Yes, Pam, it is our Father's world.

A voice of reason. Thank you.

Try a voice suffering from delusion!

Tell you what...go find a lion a lay down with him for a nap and find out whose principle runs this world. Kind of adds a new dimension to the phrase "lunch meat" doesn’t' it?

Sure, Daniel survived because God was with him, but it wasn't his idea to cohabitate with some hungry lions. Again, Satan's principle of "self" has permeated the whole creation.

Yes, in heaven the lamb will lay down with the lion. Why? The lion is no longer out for himself - you know, the survival of the fittest - Satan’s principle of self!

[Woody]

Robert ... HOW in the world did you and I get on the same side of an issue. We have done a lot of disagreement ... but on this one I am happy to join you.

[Robert]

Robert ... HOW in the world did you and I get on the same side of an issue. We have done a lot of disagreement ... but on this one I am happy to join you.

1] I didn't know that I placed you into the "other camp"???

2] We have only disagreed on ordination, but that's not a major issue for me. I guess I am undecided.

What you need to read is "Light, on the dark side of God". Get it? This lady sheds light (from the Bible) on God's so called "dark side".

Do you want me to mail you a copy? If so contact me through my e-mail and I'll send you a copy. It is by an Adventist Author, M.M. Campbell.

Robert