Is Free-Will an Illusion?

[Robert]

Pslams 47:2 "For the Lord most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth."

The King doesn't wash the dishes. The King doesn't mop floors. The King doesn't do the cooking. The King isn't a servant. The King is the Master. The King is the Ruler. The servants can only do what the King allows them to do.

This is my Father's world.

Boy...your militaristic overtones are coming out!

"The king" you are describing fits Satan's character. No wonder you are mixed up!

King Jesus is the servant of all. He showed us the Father by living a life of complete selflessness even to the point of homelessness and death. King Jesus loves the worst of His enemies more than Himself! That's because "in Him" there's no pride and self-importance.

Luke 22:24 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 “But not so with you, but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant.

verse 27 “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table?

Here's what Jesus is saying: In human terms, who is the greatest the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? His answer: The one who reclines. That's the principle this world is built on under Satan lordship. Now listen to Jesus’ answer:

But I am among you as the one who serves

And don't forget Mark 10:44-45

"whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

[Woody]

Yes ... He came to serve us and to help us survive in this sinful world of Satan's. If it were the Fathers World ... why would we need a Savior to help us?

[Robert]

[correct version] The King does wash the dishes. The King does mop floors. The King does do the cooking. The King is a servant. The King is the Master because He lives to serve. The King is the Ruler, but not under coercion.

[Robert]

Yes ... He came to serve us ....

Let me go on a bit of tangent, but for good reason:

As you know Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in

His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself

and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this;

He was saying that He loves us more than Himself.

That is God’s agape! This is Christ as servant of all. You are more important to Christ them His own Divinity...His own life! The cross forever proves this fact.

[Woody]

I think it is very dangerous to think that we have arrived in the Fathers World here on this sinful earth. God frequently refers to HEAVEN as being our home. This world and its sinfulness is not of God . It is clearly of Satan. To think otherwise is a dangerous philosophy.

On a personal note. I have a Chronic Pain Syndrome. I am in pain each and every hour of every day. For someone to tell me that this is my Fathers world makes me want to give up on Christianity all together. What I have done is to decide to reject the belief of those that hold this philosophy.

Christ died for me that I can have the assurance that some day in the future He will take me HOME where there will be no more pain. That is the HOME that I look forward to.

[Robert]

I think it is very dangerous to think that we have arrived in the Fathers World here on this sinful earth. God frequently refers to HEAVEN as being out home. This world and its sinfulness is not of God . It is clearly of Satan. To think otherwise is a dangerous philosophy.

I agree!

To give Shane (and others) the benefit of the doubt I think what they are saying is that God is involved in the affairs of men and nations. I understand this through "free-will".

God tries to reach men and nations through the HS, but once the HS is fully grieved God will remove His HS from those rejecters. That's equivalent to letting "the winds of passion blow", but it's really up to men and nations and we know that many will choose Lucifer's system of "self".

Yes, without God's influence the world would be even worse because "the flesh (our nature) and the devil" would have free reign. But to say, "this is my Father's world", well, I must disagree. To say this world under Satan is placed in check until all have decided, to this I agree....

[Dr. Shane]

Now it seems we need a lesson in the Holy Trinity. Do we need a lesson in the Holy Trinity?

Sometimes when I open my mouth I assume others around me are knowledgable of some basic Biblical facts.

When we say this is my "Father's" world, we are not referring to Jesus. Jesus is the Son. However the Trinity is a complex thing for some to grasp. Jesus can be the Servant and the King at the same time. However when someone writing in English uses a pronoun refering to a diety, it is capatalized. Thus when one writes "The King is not the servant." The servant in this context is not a diety. Such a statement would refer to created beings. He is the Potter, we are the clay. Satan is clay too, he is a created being.

Nice play on words but a little disingenuous.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is my Father's world.

It is He, and not thee, who created the mountains.

It is He, and not thee, who created the rivers.

It is He, and not thee, who created the birds and animals...and reptiles

It is He, and not thee, who makes the sun to shine.

It is He, and not thee, who gives life.

It is He, and not thee, who created humanity.

Satan can impact all of those things and he's made lots of alterations....but to argue that God gifted the world to Satan, from *my* perspective, simply reeks of blasphemy.

[Woody]

Please don't belittle us Shane. We understand the Trinity. But the Trinity has nothing to do with your belief that we live in the Fathers World. Personally ... I live in Satan's World and unless I invite the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit into my life ... my life will remain in Satans World. And further yet ... even when I invite them into my life ... I still have to remain in the wickedness of Satan's World. I still have to suffer the consequences even though I have invited the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

So ... we clearly live in Satan's world no matter what we do.

We will live in the Father's World when he comes to take us Home.

[Woody]

Pam ... All the things you have mentioned are in decline because of being turned over to Satan. If God was in control they would not be in decline. If God was in control and this WAS the Father's World ... He would not need to come and take us HOME.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I still believe this IS my Father's world. To maintain that *Satan* owns the world is tantamount to paying homage to him, IMHO. But then....what do I know...

**shakes head**

.... the idea gives me the creeps.

[Woody]

The evidence is that this is a "creepy" world. It certainly is not what I know of as the Father's.

If you were given a chance to vote ... Does this world seem more like Satan or more like the Father ... which would you vote for.

I would say that this is Satan's world according to the evidence but that there is some good as influenced by those who know God.

Another way to look at it is that unless we chose GOD ... we chose the way of evil. Evil is the dominant way of the world unless God's way is chosen. By default you go with the way of the world if you do not go with God. AND what is the way of the world? It is not of the Father.

This is why we as Christians look forward to Heaven ... the Fathers world.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

the Trinity has nothing to do with your belief that we live in the Fathers World.

The Trinity has a lot to do with Christ being both King and Servant. If people want to play games with words in a way to deny that God is the King of this world, they have to be fully aware that their game is going to impact the teaching of the Trinity.

We are servants of the Most High but not in the same context that Christ is (or was) a Servant to mankind.

[Robert]

It is He, and not thee, who created humanity.

[Robert]

We are servants of the Most High but not in the same context that Christ is (or was) a Servant to mankind.

The Trinity lives to serve! And Christ IS the servant of all! Remember what He said:

He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9

[Robert]

I still believe this IS my Father's world.

[Woody]

Right On Robert ... Go for it brother.

That belief is such a dangerous philosophy. People think that this earth is what it is all about. They think this earth is the future for them. Heaven is our home. God will destroy this earth because it is Satan's.

Why would he come here to destroy the earth if it is the Father's. This earth has been turned over to Satan. There is something much better in our future.

As for me and my house ... we will look forward to heaven as our home.

[Robert]

Yet if you have God then your time will not come until He sees fit.

"and no one seized Him [Jesus], because His hour had not yet come." [John 8:20]

And when God backed away, here's what Jesus said:

"When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness [satan]." [Luke 22:53]

Now what about persistent unbelievers?

"He who was born of God [the believer] keeps him [protects him/her] and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world [those outside Christ] lies in the power of the evil one." [1 John 5:18-19]

Does that make you feel better?

Rob

[Woody]

Can you cite references Robert?

[Robert]

This belief is such a dangerous philosophy. People think that this earth is what it is all about.

A Christian guy at work was telling some people listening to him how God created the lion's teeth so he could rip away flesh and bone.

Funny, in Eden the lamb and lion laid down together. Satan, while he can't create, understands science more than any of the world's Ph.Ds. He has tampered with God's perfect creation and made a mess of it. Now the lions kill...

My point was this guy was placing the blame on God for the lion's character. If this is our father's world I should be able to pet a lion and live to tell about it.

Robert

[Dr. Shane]

Christ is a servant but not in the same aspect as we are to be servants to Him.

Rev. 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

The First Angel's message is a call for us to worship the Creator. "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Clearly God is the King of this world. "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle... And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

The Bible is just filled with verse that show God is the King and Ruler of this world and Satan is subject to Him (IOW, on a leash).

Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

[Robert]

Done....Hit "reload page" if you can't see them

[Robert]

Christ is a servant but not in the same aspect as we are to be servants to Him.

[Woody]

Quote:

"The Bible is just filled with verse that show God is the King and Ruler of this world and Satan is subject to Him (IOW, on a leash)."

Yes ... Satan is on a leash. The leash he is on restricts him to this earth. He has been cast down to Earth and eventually will be destroyed here ... so that is a big leash.

As King ... God has allowed an invador to rule. And this is because of the Great Controversy Between Christ And Satan . God has to show that His way is the Best.