Salvation by Faith

[Woody]

I was requested to address this topic by another member who objected to the following comment that I made ...

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We are all predestined to be saved. The scriptures give us that assurance as does Ellen White.

All you have to do is accept that gift. It is yours for the taking. And if you want to accept it ... then you don't have to have ANY concern about the unpardonable sin . For if you have committed the unpardonable sin you would not be coming to Him for your Salvation.

I will not make this an exhausted study of the issue as there is very much to be covered. But I will just say a few things and then provide some quotes to this question.

God is an all knowing and loving God. Before the foundations of the earth ... God knew we would be in need of a Savior. In his wisdom ... he made a plan for ALL of us to be saved. In other words ... He Predestined a way for ALL to have Salvation. We ARE NOW saved ... unless we make the decision to reject it. The Bible and Ellen White are both clear on this.

We are ALL chosen and called. We are ALL a part of the Priesthood of believers if we so desire. This is closely tied to Salvation my Faith ... for it is Salvation by Faith. We have the Salvation if by faith we accept it. "NO one will be lost because they sin ... they will be lost because they refuse pardon" Nies

Therefore we ARE Saved unless we reject that saved status folks.

He died for all not just a certain few. His promises are for ALL. So, ALL are saved that want to accept the gift.

God has chosen and elected each of us to receive the gift. We are His chosen.

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1 Thess.1:4 "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."

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Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Praise God we are predestined to be saved as His children!!

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Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

PRAISE GOD

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"However sinful , however guilty you may be, you are called, you are chosen ." FE 251

WOW !! Now that is Beautiful is it not?

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" Every one God has predestinated to be "conformed to the image of His Son." Rom. 8:29. In every one Christ's long-suffering love, His holiness, meekness, mercy, and truth are to be manifested to the world. " {DA 826.3}

I don't know how much clearer it can be stated. God has predestinated "every one". Praise His Name !!!

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"Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." It is through the word that Christ abides in His followers." DA 677

He is more concerned with us concentrating on abiding with him rather than trying to do good works. We are saved. Our job is to continue to abide and the works will take care of themselves.

Go forth. You are His. You are chosen. You are predestined to be saved. You are saved unless you reject your saved status preordained before the foundations of the earth by God himself.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Quote:1 Thess.1:4 "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."

Refers to Christians

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Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

refers to those who have believed

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Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Refers to those who love God

This helps us to understand what is meant by predestination.

The Review and Herald, September 28, 1897, paragraph 4

Article Title: Preach the Word.-By Mrs. E. G. White.-

He who does nothing until he feels especially compelled to do something for God, will never do anything. God has given his word, and is this not sufficient? Can you not hear his voice in his word? If you will use God's appointed means, and diligently search the Scriptures, having a determined purpose to obey the truth, you will know the doctrine whether it be of God; but God will never work a miracle to compel you to see his truth.

God, in giving his only begotten Son to die on Calvary's cross, has made it possible for all men to be saved. Christ died for a ruined world, and through the merit of Christ, God has elected that man should have a second trial, a second probation, a second test as to whether he will keep the commandments of God, or walk in the path of transgression, as did Adam. Through an infinite sacrifice, God has made it possible that men shall practise holiness in this life. Those who would ascertain their election for the future life, may ascertain it by their attitude of obedience to the commandments of God.

Strong emotions, strong impulses, or desires, for heaven, when listening to a description of the charms of a future life, will not prove that you are elected to sit down with Jesus Christ upon his throne. If you would know the mystery of godliness, you should follow that which has been revealed. The conditions of eternal life have been plainly stated. Jesus says: "If ye love me, keep my commandments. . . . He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. . . . If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." Here are the conditions upon which every soul may be elected to eternal life. Your obedience to God's commandments will prove that you are predestinated to a glorious inheritance. You are elected to be laborers together with God, to work in harmony with Christ, to wear his yoke, to lift his burden, and to follow in his footsteps. You have been provided with means whereby you may ascertain what to do to make your calling and election sure. Search the Scriptures, and you will find that not a son or daughter of Adam is elected to be saved in disobedience to God's commandments.

[Woody]

More ...

Since we ARE saved ... we will continue to see sin remain. We are perfect but perfect in Christ. And abiding In Him.

Perfection means "sin does not reign, but it does REMAIN".

"That we might become members of the heavenly family, He became a member of the earthly family"

DA 638

And He did it for ALL.

However legalists want you to believe that something that YOU do will merit you salvation.

"Legalists believe that sanctification is the root , not the fruit of their salvation. Through performance we will never know how much is enough to gain God's acceptance. Performance is a response to the Father's unconditional love." "Ministry" Oct. 1989

"Obedience that responds to unconditional love no longer needs either the fire or the mansion for motivation" "Ministry" Oct. 1989

"Perfectionism shapes the understanding of church standards that some members hold. The standards have become a useful way of defining the sinlessness that they believe they must obtain to hvae salvation. Often this us an unconscious unexamined belief rooted more in personality traits than in theology "Ministry" Oct. 1989

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Un-fortunately .... "a lie will go around the world while truth is putting on his boots" 1T 463

[Woody]

Norman says ...

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Refers to those who love God

Redwood says ...

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All you have to do is accept that gift.

Norman ... If you accept the gift ... you ARE HIS.

Let me put it this way ... If there was not a gift to accept ... you could not accept it. The gift is there. Salvation is secured by the blood of Jesus. Each of us is preordained to accept it. That IS the plan.

We can decide we don't want to go along with the plan. That is our free will. But the plan still remains. The gift still remains.

We ARE His. ALL of us ARE HIS. He is our creator. He is also our Redeemer from the foundations of the earth. This has always been His plan for us. We were preordained to accept it.

You can now decide whom you will accept. Will you have God's plan or Satan's.

But ....

Quote:

" Every one God has predestinated to be "conformed to the image of His Son." Rom. 8:29. " {DA 826.3}

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

some basic facts are important to note. we must rightly divide the truth. When talking about salvation, it is good to understand that sanctification is a part of salvation as is justification and that Christ's sacrifice is also a part of salvation. HIs resurrection is a part as well. All these components are essential but they have different applications.

For example; Jesus died for all does not translate to everyone is saved. Theose who keep the commandments of God will be in heaven, does not mean that they will be there because of there commandment keeping. That we might become members of the heavenly family, He became a member of the earthly family, does not mean that everyone is saved. This is referring to something else and not salvation. It is telling us that there is a priviledge for us who will take it taht we might become members of the heavenly family

First you say

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Since we ARE saved ... we will continue to see sin remain. We are perfect but perfect in Christ. And abiding In Him.

who is the "we" in your post? We will continue to see sin remain. True, but no wilful sin will be seen in those who love the Lord and if there is they will ask for forgivness and not gloss it over or make excuses for it. No one who continually, wilfully sins will enter through the gates of heaven. This does not mean we will be sinless.

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That we might become members of the heavenly family, He became a member of the earthly family"

DA 638

And He did it for ALL.

Perfectly put, the we MIGHT, meaning there is something required to become a member of the heavenly family.

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"Legalists believe that sanctification is the root , not the fruit of their salvation. Through performance we will never know how much is enough to gain God's acceptance. Performance is a response to the Father's unconditional love." "Ministry" Oct. 1989

Here you are taking a quote about sanctification and confusing it with salvation. Ther is nothing anyone can do to save themselves. Once they have been counted worthy of eternal life by accepting and reponding to the gift of the Father's Son, they will produce the fruit.

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"Obedience that responds to unconditional love no longer needs either the fire or the mansion for motivation" "Ministry" Oct. 1989

That's it, perfectly said by the same person who said "Your obedience to God's commandments will prove that you are predestinated to a glorious inheritance." Put in right context all this makes sense.

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"Perfectionism shapes the understanding of church standards that some members hold. The standards have become a useful way of defining the sinlessness that they believe they must obtain to hvae salvation. Often this us an unconscious unexamined belief rooted more in personality traits than in theology "Ministry" Oct. 1989

Redwood, I have no problem with what EGW wrote and if you believe her in what you posted, then you must also recognize the truth that we must have a serious life changing response to all that has been done for us. This will lead us to be completely in love with the Lord and follow Him at every impulse which we have control over. If not, it is because we have forgetton that we (Christians) have been purged from our old sins 2Peter.

You can't apply that which belongs to the children of God to those who want nothing to do with Him. This makes Christ's sacrifice powerless to change lives since it is not needed according to what you have written.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Redwood, you are changing the parameters of this topic. First you said

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We are all predestined to be saved.

and now you are changing it to:

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" Every one God has predestinated to be "conformed to the image of His Son." Rom. 8:29. " {DA 826.3}

and lastly:

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We were preordained to accept it.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

I forgot to add the rest of EGWs statement that you left out.

Every one God has predestinated to be "conformed to the image of His Son." Rom. 8:29. In every one Christ's long-suffering love, His holiness, meekness, mercy, and truth are to be manifested to the world.

She is saying that in everyone God has predestinated for everyone to be changed into Christ's likeness. Why? so they ccan be saved. That is not going to happen.

Paul's use of that verse is referring to Christians who love God and so does she if you read it carefully. She will not contradict herself in things so important

[Woody]

I forgot to add the rest of EGWs statement that you left out.

Every one God has predestinated to be "conformed to the image of His Son." Rom. 8:29. In every one Christ's long-suffering love, His holiness, meekness, mercy, and truth are to be manifested to the world.

I think you are mistaken Norman. Perhaps you didn't read it all. If you will look ... I first quoted the entire quote and then I added it again in the abreviated form. Always best to read carefully.

[Woody]

She is saying that in everyone God has predestinated for everyone to be changed into Christ's likeness. Why? so they ccan be saved. That is not going to happen.

Here I agree with you. But being changed into His likeness IS being saved. Those who are like Him will be saved.

But I am not sure the motive behind saying this ... since at NO time have I indicated that ALL would be saved. That seems rather strange for someone to say at least in Adventist circles. And I am an Advenstist.

What I have been saying here is that the plan was laid for all to be saved who wanted to be saved ... before the foundations of the earth. I could just repeat myself ... but I don't see that my words are getting through anyway .

I would invite you to reread my posts and find anywhere were I have said that all are going to be saved. Personally I don't find that in my posts and I don't find it in the Bible.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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I would invite you to reread my posts and find anywhere were I have said that all are going to be saved. Personally I don't find that in my posts and I don't find it in the Bible.

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He Predestined a way for ALL to have Salvation. We ARE NOW saved ... unless we make the decision to reject it.

You just said we ARE NOW saved and in context meant all. That is the same old stuff that has been floating around CA for the last few years. We are not all now saved unless we reject it. The conditions of salvation are today what they have always been, the keeping of the Commandments of God, as a result of accepting the Gift of Christ and the Holy Spirit to empower us and reveal to all the character of Christ so as to have power in our lives to hopefully save those by our witness.

[Woody]

You just said we ARE NOW saved and in context meant all. That is the same old stuff that has been floating around CA for the last few years. We are not all now saved unless we reject it. The conditions of salvation are today what they have always been, the keeping of the Commandments of God."

[Gerr]

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We are ALL chosen and called.

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Mt 22:14 NKJ

Gerry

[Woody]

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We are ALL chosen and called.

"For many are called, but few are chosen." Mt 22:14 NKJ

Gerry

[Robert]

The conditions of salvation are today what they have always been, the keeping of the Commandments of God....

Pure, unadulterated legalism!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Just repeating EGW, your disagreement is with her, not me.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Norman

The conditions of salvation are today what they have always been, the keeping of the Commandments of God....

Pure, unadulterated legalism!

I have a feeling you would say Rev. 22: 14 is also legalism. Yet virtually all of the ancient Greek manuscripts read that way. Only a handful do not.

Both the reading you have in the NKJV and in the NASB are actually signifying the same thing. The only way anyone can keep God's commandments is through faith in Jesus Christ and by the cleansing of the Holy Spirit. I therefore accept both readings as legitimate.

Neither Ellen White nor the Apostle John are advocating works-righteousness or works of the law. They are speaking of works of faith and saying that our life will tell whether we really have faith or trust in Christ. If we do, it will be demonstrated in the life. If we don't, that also will be demonstrated.

Christ certainly did not die in order for God to fill heaven with people who are still in rebellion against God and refusing to obey Him. That would only transfer the problems of earth to heaven.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Much better answer than I gave John317, Amen to that

[Robert]

I have a feeling you would say Rev. 22: 14 is also legalism.

[Robert]

Just repeating EGW, your disagreement is with her, not me.

Then do you agree with the following?

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Woody]

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Neither Ellen White nor the Apostle John are advocating works-righteousness or works of the law. They are speaking of works of faith

Works of faith aren't worth a pile of beans towards my salvation. Now ... the works of Jesus ON THE CROSS ... that is what "I" rely on for MY Salvation. And I can't add even ONE bean to what HE did. The fact that HE "did and died" is what I value for MY salvation.

[Woody]

Thank you Robert.

If ONLY people could understand the beauty of this promise. There is So much corruption in this world and IN our hearts. Once Jesus comes ... we WILL be changed and HE will THEN put away all the corruption of this old world that is IN us.

When we SEE Him ... we shall be changed.

Ellen White puts it this way ...

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" Every Sinful tendency, every imperfection that afflicts them here has been removed by the blood of Christ, and the excellence and brightness of His GLORY, far exceeding the brightness of the sun, is impared to them." STC 126

This happens at the second coming.

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"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall SEE HIM as He is." 1 John 3:2

Praise God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I have a feeling you would say Rev. 22: 14 is also legalism.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city." [NASB]

The vast majority of Greek manuscripts read, "Blessed are those who obey his commandments." [NKJV].

Robert Young's Literal: `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city."

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14: 15).

This reading is in harmony with Rev. 12: 17; 14: 12; John 14: 15, 21; 15: 10 and 1 John 2: 3-6.

The NASB translators chose to base their translation on the reading of only 2 Greek manuscripts: the Sinaiaticus and the Alexandrinus, a fourth and fifth century manuscript. Five late manuscripts dating between the ninth and the 12th century also give that reading.

Both readings give us the truth. There is no contradiction between them.

What does it mean to wash one's robes? Compare Rev. 7: 14. These saints have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Washing one's robes in the blood of the Lamb and obeying God's commandments are closely related. Compare Rev. 12: 17 and 14: 12. The saints whose robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb are keeping the commandments of God because of their faith-based relationship with Christ. See 1 John 3: 1-10.

Ellen White wrote, "None who have had the light of truth will enter the city of God as commandment breakers. His law lies at the foundation of His government in earth and in heaven. If they have knowingly trampled upon and despised His law on the earth, they will not be taken to heaven to do the same work there; there is no change of character when Christ comes. The character building is to go on during the hours of probation. Day by day their actions are registered in the books of heaven, and they will, in the day of God, be rewarded as their works have been. It will then be seen who receive the blessing, 'Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (RH Aug. 25, 1885)

Our title to heaven is the righteousness of Christ imputed: our fitness for heaven, the righteousness of Christ imparted, represented by the washed robes. The outward evidence of the righteousness of Christ imparted is perfect compliance with the commandments of God. Hence the two ideas of washed robes and obedience to the commandments are closely related.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

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The outward evidence of the righteousness of Christ imparted is perfect compliance with the commandments of God.

I find this hard to believe since NO one is able and NO one life will EVER demonstrate this. So, "perfect compliance" is simply pie in the sky until we SEE HIS FACE when HE is in the Sky at the Second Coming.

The perfection that we should aspire to is the one that David had. God called him perfect and he did not exactly live a "righteous" life. He conspired murder while on his death bed.

[John317]

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The outward evidence of the righteousness of Christ imparted is perfect compliance with the commandments of God.

I find this hard to believe since NO one is able and NO one life will EVER demonstrate this. So, "perfect compliance" is simply pie in the sky until we SEE HIS FACE when HE is in the Sky at the Second Coming.

Do we walk by sight or by faith? See 2 Cor. 5: 7.

Do you remember what happened when God gave the command to go into the Promised Land, how almost everyone said they couldn't overcome the giants? So they refused to go in. They all died in the wilderness. They lacked faith in God's promises that they could conquer the giants in the land. They were walking by sight and not by faith. They were calling God a liar. Many today are calling God a liar by saying God's promises are worthless, that no one can keep God's commandments, despite all the verses in the Bible that say otherwise. Our problem is that, like Peter, we have our eyes set on ourselves and on others, instead of on Christ and on His promises. After Peter learned his lesson, look at what he wrote in 2 Peter 1: "God's divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

But none of these things can be true for us individually unless we are willing to take God at His word and use the power of the Holy Spirit to overcome. If we go on saying we will be saved even if we don't use God's power to overcome, in the end we will be like the children of Israel who thought they realized the full promise just by being freed from Egypt but who died in the wilderness without ever stepping foot in the Land of Promise. Study well Hebrews 3: 12 to 4: 6.

Regards,

"John 2: 17"

[Woody]

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If we go on saying we will be saved even if we don't use God's power to overcome

That is exactly what I am saying. We do not and will continue to not use God's power for "perfect compliance".

Christ came to die for and save ...

SINNERS

of which I am the chief among them. Not saying that I don't continue to strive to let God be the center of my life. But NO. I am selfish. But I do have a Redeemer who died for me a sinner.

I DON'T use God's power as I should and as I desire. But that is why he came and DIED.