Salvation by Faith

[olger]

Hi Norman. Your post above helps to define the difference between missing the mark, and purposeful sin.

The problem with Redwood's delivery is that he describes his experience of "missing the mark" in language that sounds very much like willful sin. This elicits a response from those of us who understand the Biblical warnings regarding sin.

Redwood, your delivery (explanation) comes across as kind of a negative experience. "I will sin tomorrow, and right up until the day I die.." The problem is, this sentence, without a leveling statement from the other side of the equation refuses to reconcile (mathematical term). Both negatives & positives define the human experience, in light of the Gospel. Hope that is helpful.

This is not meant to be condenscending, comrade.

Best wishes,

oG

[Woody]

Hi Norman. Your post above helps to define the difference between missing the mark, and purposeful sin.

The problem with Redwood's delivery is that he describes his experience of "missing the mark" in language that sounds very much like willful sin. This elicits a response from those of us who understand the Biblical warnings regarding sin.

Redwood, your delivery (explanation) comes across as kind of a negative experience. "I will sin tomorrow, and right up until the day I die.." The problem is, this sentence, without a leveling statement from the other side of the equation refuses to reconcile (mathematical term). Both negatives & positives define the human experience, in light of the Gospel. Hope that is helpful.

This is not meant to be condenscending, comrade.

Best wishes,

oG

Yes Olger ... I do appreciate your comments. I see them as very helpful in difining what we are talking about. I would call it clarification and I am always happy to do that.

I am just being pragmatic. I will sin and I will continue to sin. I see that as reality. I have no illusions. I am just laying it on the line and I apologize that it DOES sound Negative.

As most here probably know .... I do strive to abide In Him and thereby gain victory over all the sins that my abiding allows. But it is abiding that is my focus and not the victory over sins.

The victory over sins do come though. And I cherish each and everyone of them. For HOW else do we glorify our God? Good works and victory over sin is how we do that. I want to do as much as I can for my Lord and Saviour. And I know each and every one of you feel the same way.

Like I have said before ... the emphasis that we express here is just because of the problems that we have experienced and witnessed on our life's journey. I don't think that God is concerned with our differences. He loves us all the same.

Thanks for your post Olger.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

As most here probably know .... I do strive to abide In Him and thereby gain victory over all the sins that my abiding allows. But it is abiding that is my focus and not the victory over sins.

This past Sabbath I preached at our church and the message was about overcoming. I quoted Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. and told them that Jesus did not sin so He did nothave to overcome sin. Rather He had to overcome temptation. This is what we must overcome as well. We will never be sinless however we can be completely obedient to the One that we love and would die for and this is what God is looking for.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Jam 4:7,8

The only way to overcome temptation is to do what James writes. Submit to God first. In other words don't fight with Satan submit to God and resist his temptations and he's gone!

I bet that if we started to do this (and it would be hard at first) we would eventually be a lot more victorious than we are now. It would become natural to submit and resist. The more we do what we do the better we get at it.

[Woody]

Quote:

we can be completely obedient to the One that we love and would die for and this is what God is looking for.

I understand that He is "looking" for it. But He will have to look an awful long time because it aint goin to happin.

I do understand the importance of setting high goals though. So, I agree that God is looking for this but not expecting it.

I certainly have not met anyone who would qualify.

[Robert]

The saints whose robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb are keeping the commandments of God because of their faith-based relationship with Christ. See 1 John 3: 1-10.

This is more legalism. While there is a change in the life of a believer he is nonetheless falling short. Self-love is still seen in his life. Who are you kidding?

[Robert]

The key is the word "willfully". My understanding is that if you continue to "willfully" commit adultery, "willfully" cheat on your taxes, "willfully" bow down to idols, "willfully" take God's name in vain, then yes, my Bible says you would be condemned to hell.

And you "willfully" love yourself. Look around at all your goodies for proof. But you'll deny that "self-love" is sin and so you reduce God's law to rules you can keep. This is blatant hypocrisy and self-righteousness. Repent!

[Robert]

Otherwise, where then is the repentance? "If we decide to go on sinning after we have learned the truth, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26 NCV

You love your paraphrased Bibles because they fit your hellish, legalistic theology. The "willful" sin that Hebrews 10:26 speaks of can be found in the context of the whole chapter. It is the sin of unbelief - the rejection of the sacrifice of Christ. Let me help you:

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him [set him apart], and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Compare to " 9 He said, “Behold, I have come to do Thy will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[Robert]

You are "verse jumping" - what I call "connect a dot". You are taking statements and connecting them together, out of context, to present a legalistic view. I reject this! BTW, you can make the Bible say anything using your method.

[Woody]

Yes Robert. This is a danger that we need to avoid. Thank you for pointing that out. We have to be careful to not do that with the Bible and with EGW.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Otherwise, where then is the repentance? "If we decide to go on sinning after we have learned the truth, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26 NCV

You love your paraphrased Bibles because they fit your hellish, legalistic theology. The "willful" sin that Hebrews 10:26 speaks of can be found in the context of the whole chapter. It is the sin of unbelief - the rejection of the sacrifice of Christ. Let me help you:

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him [set him apart], and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Compare to " 9 He said, “Behold, I have come to do Thy will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I posted what, about 6 different translations, and you only noticed the NCV?

And how does unbelief manifest itself?

"He who says, 'I know Him,'[or believe in Him] and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 Jn 2:4 NKJ.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?....Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is DEAD? Jam 2:14, 16,17 NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The key is the word "willfully". My understanding is that if you continue to "willfully" commit adultery, "willfully" cheat on your taxes, "willfully" bow down to idols, "willfully" take God's name in vain, then yes, my Bible says you would be condemned to hell.

And you "willfully" love yourself. Look around at all your goodies for proof. But you'll deny that "self-love" is sin and so you reduce God's law to rules you can keep. This is blatant hypocrisy and self-righteousness. Repent!

"You shall love your neighbor AS you love yourself." JESUS.

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

You are "verse jumping" - what I call "connect a dot". You are taking statements and connecting them together, out of context, to present a legalistic view. I reject this! BTW, you can make the Bible say anything using your method.

It's called here a little there a little. I expect you to reject this but that doesn't concern me. I reject what you teach and believe it will cause people to be lost.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:we can be completely obedient to the One that we love and would die for and this is what God is looking for.

I understand that He is "looking" for it. But He will have to look an awful long time because it aint goin to happin.

I do understand the importance of setting high goals though. So, I agree that God is looking for this but not expecting it.

I certainly have not met anyone who would qualify.

It may not happen in your life but it will happen. God is going to accomplish this for His glory, by His Spirit in those who are willing to die to self and live for Him.

Here's why I believe this. I once was suicidal and attemted to take my life. Nothing interested me at all, nothing. This wa the perfect mind set for God to help me see that rather than die I can choose to die to self. If I was willing to end my life why would I want anything or choose anything that would have to do with this life? I had no interest in living. But when I decided to listen to God things changed, I still wanted to die because I hated myself but I could see that I could die for Him and live at the same time.

Until we are willing to die and choose to let go we will never have the capacity to live for God and be completely obedient. Anyone, who does not think we can be completely obedient to God has not experienced God or they did and were afraid to let go.

must go to Prayer meeting , more later if I have time

Norman

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And you "willfully" love yourself. Look around at all your goodies for proof. But you'll deny that "self-love" is sin and so you reduce God's law to rules you can keep. This is blatant hypocrisy and self-righteousness. Repent! [/quote']

"You shall love your neighbor AS you love yourself." JESUS.

Gerry

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry... How many commands? Not two, one!

Are you really a Doctor?

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

You are "verse jumping" - what I call "connect a dot". You are taking statements and connecting them together, out of context, to present a legalistic view. I reject this! BTW, you can make the Bible say anything using your method.

It's called here a little there a little. I expect you to reject this but that doesn't concern me. I reject what you teach and believe it will cause people to be lost.

"Here a little and there a little" still equals error! Always go to the context and read everything around it. Otherwise you come up with legalism - you know - like you've come up with.

[Woody]

Quote:

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Praise God. We ARE sanctified through what HE DID .. not through what WE DO.

Thanks Robert.

[Robert]

Until we are willing to die and choose to let go we will never have the capacity to live for God and be completely obedient.

Your not under law, Norman, so why are you trying to obey? That's legalism.

Christian living is another thing. Here the only thing you can do is give God permission to take control over your nature. I do this in the sense I don't want to be controlled by nature, but since my surrender is imperfect and the essence of sin (self-love) is a deceiver, I fall short. Besides, again, we are not under law. If we were under law no one would make it, not even one.

Again, Ellen White:

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

[Woody]

Thank you Robert. I would have highlighted that last part. I think it speaks volumes to those that think their life is of value to their salvation ...

Quote:

He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Until we are willing to die and choose to let go we will never have the capacity to live for God and be completely obedient.

Your not under law, Norman, so why are you trying to obey? That's legalism.

Christian living is another thing. Here the only thing you can do is give God permission to take control over your nature. I do this in the since I don't want to be controlled by nature, but sense my surrender is imperfect and the essence of sin (self-love) is a deceiver, I fall short. Besides, again, we are not under law. If we were under law no one would make it, not even one.

Again, Ellen White:

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

"There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation....

When, as erring, sinful beings, we come to Christ and become partkaers of His pardoning grace, love springs up in the heart...

The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. .....Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. 'We love, because He first loved us.' 1 Jn 4:19. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections...

There are two errors against which the children of God - particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace - especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trustin g anything they can do, to bring to themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from the keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partkaers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption." SC 59,60.

Gerry

[Gerr]

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life?....

Obedience - the service and allegiance of love - is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, 'This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.' 'He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.' 1 Jn 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience." SC 60-61

Gerry

[Gerr]

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. 'Ye kinow that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither know Him.' 1 Jn 3:5,6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law....

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God is not faith, but presumption." SC 61

Gerry

[Woody]

What has happened to this thread. Like Stan mentioned ... this is a forum for "discussions" not a rehash of Ellen White.

How can we restore it to a discussion of ideas rather than ideology represented by ones interpretation of Ellen White.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry... How many commands? Not two, one!

Are you really a Doctor?

Rob

"Love your neighbor AS you love yourself."

The first part gives the command, the second tells us how. You won't know how to carry out the command unless you know how. The "how" is established by knowing the second part.

Gerry

[Robert]

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from the keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption." SC 59,60.

Sure our works have to do with salvation.

You see Satan is correctly accusing us before Christ as sinners undeserving of heaven. In the final judgment Christ has to answer those charges. How does He do it?

He takes the fruit of the gospel that we have accepted and examines it. The legalist thinks that Christ takes his good works and measures that against his bad deeds. IF the good works out weigh the bad ones, Christ let's him in.

The problem with this is that this teaching is legalistic to the core. That is salvation by faith PLUS works the very same thing that the RRC teaches.

Then what do our works have to do with salvation since we are complete "in Christ" by faith alone?

Simply put those who have accepted the true gospel will bear genuine fruit that is free from self-righteousness. Their motive is not fear of hell or hope of a reward because the fruits that bloom from such are filthy rags.

On the other hand those who have accepted their position "in Christ" for their ticket to heaven bear fruits that are free from legalistic motivations. Their fruit is genuine and free of self-righteousness.

Why examine the fruit? To see how good we are? No way! That's legalism. It's to see if our faith is "in Christ" or partially in Him and partially in our performance. So it’s not the quantity of good works, but the quality.

Once Christ has proven our faith to Satan, Christ has the legal right to present such believers blameless "in Himself."

Read Prophets and Kings, Joshua and the Angel page - 588

[Woody]

It IS beautiful. And Christ if vindicated. Quality Yes. Quantity NO.