Salvation by Faith

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Your not under law, Norman, so why are you trying to obey? That's legalism.

If I look at under the law as you do that might be the case, but I know that under the law means to try and earn your salvation and every aspect of it by trying to keep the law. This is exactly what Paul was talking about. His battle and his resason for writing those types of letters was because some of the Jews told the new believers they had to be circumcised and keep the laws of Moses in order to be saved.

This was in addition to believing in Christ. To be under the law was to try and do that which he preached against. He never told us nor did he intend to tell us that we should not keep the law. He said love and that will fulfill the law. Christ put it this way, If you love me keep my commandments.

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Christian living is another thing. Here the only thing you can do is give God permission to take control over your nature. I do this in the sense I don't want to be controlled by nature, but since my surrender is imperfect and the essence of sin (self-love) is a deceiver, I fall short. Besides, again, we are not under law. If we were under law no one would make it, not even one.

Here's the difference between what you teach and what I see in scripture. There requires only mental acknowledgement for your Gospel and a hopeless life of defeat.

The Gospel of the Bible that my Lord showed us how to live is one of faith which is empowered only by love of what He has done and will do for us, which is His demonstration of His love.

Your camp prays, Lord help me not to do this ever again but inside they know they will do it again and their prayer is a wishful, miserable cry of dispair with no hope of gaining victory.

The camp I believe in and live by are those who pray for God to help them and they get up off their knees in praise to an all powerful God who raised the dead and was raised Himself to show tha twith God all things are possible. This doesn't mean that we are better than your camp but we have a better life and more victory and if we continue to live in the power, we will be completely obedient to the one who gives us poewr to do so.

The only reason why people don't do it is because they have been decieved into think that we cannot or as you have said we are not able to do it. But God is capable! Every miracle Christ did was a shout of victory for those who were captive and a sign of hope for those of us who may still be captive.

How can anyone's surrender be imperfect? If it is then it is not surrender. Surrender means to die, to let your self be crucified as did Christ and be raised by the same power that raise Christ to newness of life. This is the abundant, this is living in Christ and Christ in us.

You can deny it if you choose and continue to live a defeated and hopeless life Rob but I choose otherwise. Christ will not let His people down, but will give them the Joy of the Lord to strengthen them.

Norman

[Stan]

Have to ask this, does trying to obey your countries laws make you un-American? Does it make you earn/keep your US citizenship? Trying to earn your Citizenship?

Does obeying the 'Highway Traffic Act' or what ever it is called, make you near the right to keep your Drivers License?

[Robert]

"Love your neighbor AS you love yourself."

The first part gives the command, the second tells us how. You won't know how to carry out the command unless you know how. The "how" is established by knowing the second part.

As Shane said, Jesus is talking to sinners who are already quite in love with themselves. Everything they've done from birth has been centered on themselves. Their love of self is apparent. Instead we are to take this self-centered selfish, self-love and redirect it outward instead of inward.

If Christ had loved Himself He would have come down from the cross independent of His Father's wishes. Instead He loved you and me more than Himself. When He died He thought it was for eternity because the source of the resurrection [His Father] had forsaken Him. That's unselfish love. Now compare your self-love to His selfless love.

As long as you are loving yourself there's very little time for others. Why? You are too busy loving yourself. Who are you kidding? Not God!

Rob

[Woody]

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You can deny it if you choose and continue to live a defeated and hopeless life Rob but I choose otherwise. Christ will not let His people down, but will give them the Joy of the Lord to strengthen them.

oOrman

oOrman ... perhaps you have misunderstood or twisted what Robert said. I don't believe that what he said in any way expressed a "defeated and hopeless life". I see what he said as representing assurance rather than hopelessness. I find lots of Joy in his posts. Would you like to reconsider how you characterized his posts?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Again, Ellen White:

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

Rob, I never spoke of sinlessness. I'm talking about complete obedience and there is a difference. There is sin in us that we are not aware of and the closer we draw to Christ we will see our unChristlikeness and selfish abhorable character, but this does not prevent us from being completely obedient to what which we know.

That is how love is display; obedience to that which you know. To make an excuse and say we will never be sinless therefore just forget it and believe that Christ's death will cover that, is a fatal error.

Norman

[Woody]

Have to ask this, does trying to obey your countries laws make you un-American? Does it make you earn/keep your US citizenship? Trying to earn your Citizenship?

Does obeying the 'Highway Traffic Act' or what ever it is called, make you near the right to keep your Drivers License?

Stan .... help me more ... I am not sure what analogy you are after. Can you expound your idea here?

[Robert]

I'm talking about complete obedience and there is a difference. There is sin in us that we are not aware of and the closer we draw to Christ we will see our unChristlikeness and selfish abhorable character, but this does not prevent us from being completely obedient to what which we know.

This is more legalism. In fact it's worse. In your theology you have reduced God's law to rules you know of or can keep and somehow think this gives you eternal life. This is salvation by partial credit.

[Woody]

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this does not prevent us from being completely obedient to what which we know. That is how love is display; obedience to that which you know. To make an excuse and say we will never be sinless therefore just forget it and believe that Christ's death will cover that, is a fatal error.

Fatal error? I think not. God will forgive ALL sins ... He didn't say confess only those sins that you don't know are sins. He says to come to him WHEN you sin. Over and Over and Over again. He doesn't limit it to just one forgiveness per sinful act.

If what you have said is a fatal error ... then I will take my error to heaven and He will cover me with his robe. A shame that His robe for you is only for those sins that you didn't know were sins. What a shame.

No ... I will never be sinless. For there is only one who is and only one who will ever be sinless with complete obedience ... and that is the one who provides the Robe.

[Robert]

How can anyone's surrender be imperfect? If it is then it is not surrender. Norman

If your surrender was perfect you would be as perfect as God is perfect, but Paul states that we fall short of God's love. And John says that one is delusional if he thinks he is without sin in his life. Why? Surrender!

So the problem is not God, it is you and me. Why? "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Yes, we will grow, we will become more like Christ, but as long as life shall last there will be stopping point where we can say we have arrived. Who said that? EGW!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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oOrman ... perhaps you have misunderstood or twisted what Robert said. I don't believe that what he said in any way expressed a "defeated and hopeless life". I see what he said as representing assurance rather than hopelessness. I find lots of Joy in his posts. Would you like to reconsider how you characterized his posts?

That's kind of a neat name oOrman lol

No I would not like to reconsider because I used to believe that and I never had peace with it. There was always a doubt in mind that something wasn't right about it. I prayed and fasted and prayed and then I saw it for what it was. I also saw what that belief was doing to me and those who believed like that. It cause us to separate ourselves from those who didn't believe like us.

I said "You can deny it if you choose and continue to live a defeated and hopeless life" Here's what I meant and what will happen. If one concedes to a life of defeat, they will never experience the power of God working in their life. What is misunderstood by those who believe that theory is that victory is the stepping stone to victory. This type of victory brings great joy in knowing that the Lord is working in you, and that is what we all long to know. Without that knowledge we can have no true peace.

Here's an example: whe I returned from my rebellion of 10 years I started to practice those things that I knew I should do such as prayer, Bible study, going to church etc... For some reason I could not get myself to pray before my meals, I kept forgetting. This really annoyed me and no matter how I tried I just could not. Then one day after I had lunch I said to my Father, "Lord I cannot do this simple thing, I can't do it, please help me to remember next time"

I arose from my knees with a joy that I had not had until then and for some reason I just knew He would do it for me. The next time mealtime came guess what? I prayed!!! That simple victory in the strength of the Lord gave me hope, understanding and power. Now I know for sure that no matter what I asked for when it came to helping me do His will, He would do it and it was not in my strength! There was joy everytime I prayed for things and my prayers were all answered.

That was a time of power that I must tell you I had drifted away from but now am being brought back to. For this reason I know that God can do anything in us of we only believe. So for me to accept a believe that says we will never be completely obedient would mean I would have to deny what I have experienced in Christ and that was Christ in me. Not gonna do it, now or ever, never!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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If your surrender was perfect you would be as perfect as God is perfect, but Paul states that we fall short of God's love. And John says that one is delusional if he thinks he is without sin in his life. Why? Surrender!

Rob, again it's not about sinlessness. It's about obedience. God is looking for those who love Him enough to surrender to Him conpletely. What you know to surrender you must. If you are not aware of something God is not requiring you to surrender that because you can't. But God is also asking more than parts of our life, He wants us to realize what He has done and the power available and to let Him do in us what we can never do ourselves. If He can't do it then He's no better than we are. What kind of regeneration is that? May's well just keep on living without Him, otherwise your reason for wanting heaven is purely selfish and that in itself will disqualify us.

If you read Romans 3 correctly Paul is quoting the OT and is referring to those who rebelled against God. He is saying that we all did this and those who have accepted truly Christ and live by the power of the Spirit do not live like this.

Norman

[Robert]

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29]

Are all your acts and motives selfless or is there still much selfishness in your life? Let me give you Christ's life But first: "All sin is selfishness." [EGW]

"Christ pleased not Himself." [EGW]

"He did nothing for Himself; His work was in behalf of fallen man. Selfishness stood abashed in His presence." [EGW}

[Robert]

Rob, again it's not about sinlessness. It's about obedience. Norman

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from the keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption." SC 59,60.

Sure our works have to do with salvation.

You see Satan is correctly accusing us before Christ as sinners undeserving of heaven. In the final judgment Christ has to answer those charges. How does He do it?

He takes the fruit of the gospel that we have accepted and examines it. The legalist thinks that Christ takes his good works and measures that against his bad deeds. IF the good works out weigh the bad ones, Christ let's him in.

The problem with this is that this teaching is legalistic to the core. That is salvation by faith PLUS works the very same thing that the RRC teaches.

Then what do our works have to do with salvation since we are complete "in Christ" by faith alone?

Simply put those who have accepted the true gospel will bear genuine fruit that is free from self-righteousness. Their motive is not fear of hell or hope of a reward because the fruits that bloom from such are filthy rags.

On the other hand those who have accepted their position "in Christ" for their ticket to heaven bear fruits that are free from legalistic motivations. Their fruit is genuine and free of self-righteousness.

Why examine the fruit? To see how good we are? No way! That's legalism. It's to see if our faith is "in Christ" or partially in Him and partially in our performance. So it’s not the quantity of good works, but the quality.

Once Christ has proven our faith to Satan, Christ has the legal right to present such believers blameless "in Himself."

Read Prophets and Kings, Joshua and the Angel page - 588

You know, it is shame the above isn't explored a bit more. EGW says the exact same thing!

[Robert]

"You can deny it if you choose and continue to live a defeated and hopeless life"

Norman, the day you can fully live Christ's life (and not just give lip service to it) then you have the right to preach to the rest of us. Until then, cut it....

"Christ pleased not Himself." He did nothing for Himself; His work was in behalf of fallen man. Selfishness stood abashed in His presence."

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Have to ask this, does trying to obey your countries laws make you un-American? Does it make you earn/keep your US citizenship? Trying to earn your Citizenship?

Interesting way to look at this. Here are the answers:

Trying to keep the US laws does not make one unAmerican

It does not help you keep you citizenship unless you are a foreigner. If one is not born here they can loose it for committing certain crimes.

Those who have accpeted Christ have citizenship in heaven but we were not born there and can be prevented from entering in by disobedience. We can become "Castaways" if we do not keep our bodies under control of the Spirit for example.

The last question I don't understand

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Does obeying the 'Highway Traffic Act' or what ever it is called, make you near the right to keep your Drivers License?

Do you mean bear the right? Keeping them or not keeping them reveals ones heart. Do you love your country/state/county/city/neighborhood/family enough to not disobey and prevent a possible accident? Love is fulfilling the law. So if you love your family, you will not speed due to how it makes one look, a law breaker, one who disregards the common laws for their own gain. If one loves his family he will not take the risk of injury or taking moeny away from them to pay a fine.

This is the kind of love that God is looking for but He is not asking us to do this rather to love and then this will occur in the process of loving. To try and do this for gain of any kind is what Paul preached again.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

You still are missing what I have said. I have no problem with that statement, but you need to broaden your understanding of what she is saying as well as what you see. Let me put it this way.

There is willful disobedience of a believer (dangerous)

There is ignorant disobedience of a believer (which Christ's sacrifice covers)

Both are sin: The 2nd classs can be completely obedient but they are still sinful. When they sin they acknoledge their sin.

The 1st class are disobedient and are both sinful and disobedient. When they sin they don't care.

Christ is looking for and we can be the 2nd class. Completely obedient but not sinless.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Originally Posted By: Norman"You can deny it if you choose and continue to live a defeated and hopeless life"

Norman, the day you can fully live Christ's life (and not just give lip service to it) then you have the right to preach to the rest of us. Until then, cut it....

"Christ pleased not Himself." He did nothing for Himself; His work was in behalf of fallen man. Selfishness stood abashed in His presence."

It's a dangerous thing to base a theory according to men's lives and lack of obedience. Also you don't know how I live and have no ability to judge anyone. Don't worry about me, God will deal with me, but you must be obedient to God in all that you know. If you don't and ask for forgiveness He will pardon you and help you be more faithful. You must reveal your love to God by your obedience, not to gain anything but because you love Him. Do that and you will understand and live.

[Woody]

Robert ... did you know that you

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continue to live a defeated and hopeless life"

?

[Woody]

Got all that down Robert?

[Robert]

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Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law.... He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.”...But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

I have no problem with that statement....

Of course you don't. I am not surprised:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "This do, and thou shalt live.” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. [RH, 10-17-1907]

EGW links you with the Old Covenant. She is right.

[Robert]

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"Christ pleased not Himself." He did nothing for Himself; His work was in behalf of fallen man. Selfishness stood abashed in His presence."

... you don't know how I live and have no ability to judge anyone.

[Robert]

Got all that down Robert?

Yes, there are some very blind, self-deceived folks here!

“

"Many are Laodiceans, living in a spiritual self-deception. [in what way?] They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness, imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness." [OHC 349]

[Robert]

What a contradiction! "You must reveal your love to God...not to gain anything....Do that...and live!"

"What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach (like Gerry, John & Norman) and you get what we had here today, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men."

[Gerr]

When your side-kick quotes EGW, you say nothing. I quote her only because your side-kick keeps bringing her up when it suits him. And if you look at your own posts, you quote her not infrequently and it's not a rehash then. What gives? When you quote her it's ok; when somebody else does the same, it's a rehash!

Gerry