Salvation by Faith

[John317]

Quote:

If we go on saying we will be saved even if we don't use God's power to overcome

That is exactly what I am saying. We do not and will continue to not use God's power for "perfect compliance".

Christ came to die for and save ...

SINNERS

of which I am the chief among them. Not saying that I don't continue to strive to let God be the center of my life. But NO. I am selfish. But I do have a Redeemer who died for me a sinner.

I DON'T use God's power as I should and as I desire. But that is why he came and DIED.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

He died for us because He loves us, but He loves us too much to leave us where He found us. He lifts us up.

God saved Israel out of Egyptian slavery. He loved them too much to leave them where He found them. But most of them really wanted back into Egypt. God could take them of Egypt, but He couldn't take Egypt out of them, because they lacked trust in Him and therefore refused to obey Him. They were satisfied with just leaving Egypt and had no true conception of God's plan for them, and so the tragic record is that they died in the desert and their bodies rotted in the sands of Sinai.

What would have happened to Paul if he had been content with His experience on the road to Damascus and had refused to follow Christ's leading to Rome where the execution block awaited him? What if Paul had said, "He died for me a great sinner, and that's what I am determined to remain until the Second Coming"?

Instead, Paul said, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day-- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

What if Paul hadn't fought the good fight, finished the race, and kept the faith? What if he had been content to go on living as a great sinner, continuing to sin deliberately and continually? Paul loved Christ too much to do that. And if we truly love Christ, and know the power of God in our lives, we will also be unwilling to go on sinning deliberately.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:The outward evidence of the righteousness of Christ imparted is perfect compliance with the commandments of God.

I find this hard to believe since NO one is able and NO one life will EVER demonstrate this. So, "perfect compliance" is simply pie in the sky until we SEE HIS FACE when HE is in the Sky at the Second Coming.

Do you remember how many were saved on Noah's ark? There will not be many saved when Jesus returns either. So while you personally may not see this, that is not a good enough foundation to create a doctrine on.

I have found one extremely important teaching in the Bible that unless we understand we will not be able to show the evidence that John 317 spoke about.

You may not believe what I post and you may disagree with what I have said in the past but this is one thing that is so vital to us all. We must stop condenming and 2nd guessing our own selves. Let me share an example; You have a dedicated Christian who loves the Lord and goes out to help someone who needs work done around the house. Then after they finish the say "it has been a blessing to help you and I will pray for you." They notice a strange look on the person's face.

As he leaves he begins to wonder what that look was all about. He (or she) starts to think like this. "Maybe I shouldnt have said I will pray for you. Then they start to think that maybe they should have listened to God better. Then it moves along to well maybe I'm not living my life right.

This type of thinking is common in a lot of people and they will be the first to tell you that their life isn't right with God and that they are not good Christians. The whole time they don't understand that their words were a blessing to that person.

This is one of the tricks of the devil. He did it with Christ in trying to make him think He was not the Son of God. He does it with God's people today as well and has much success and one of the reasons I believe is because we have taken a stand that there are no absolutes in Christianity. (I'm not saying this for any other reason than to make this point I'm not refering to anything or anyone)

God will ask His people to do the strangest things at times and if we are not close to Him and know His voice we will start to doubt or be confused. I think of the time God asked Peter to eat unclean animals in vision. That was strange to Peter and if He was not close to God Satan would have made a mess of him once again. Peter might have thought that this was not of God and that maybe it was from Satan.

But in a short time Peter understood what this all meant. The main point I'm trying to make is that we sometimes doubt ourselves and condemn ourselves and taht can cause us to have no victory in our lives.

It is difficult to stand really firm for your beliefs with the world we live in at every turn there's a pull to let them go because they are not accepted or popular or perhaps as many think of mine, divisive. Nevertheless if we stand firm in the truth (I'm Not saying that about me but in general) we will find that the victories that we are lacking now will become a reality very quickly.

Norman

[Gerr]

Quote:

He has chosen ALL of us to come to Him. He will in no wise cast out ANY of us.

"But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment......Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness...." Mt 22:11,13 NKJ.

"And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt 25:30 NKJ.

Gerry

[Woody]

I would never serve a King that didn't invite everyone to the party. The King I serve says that ALL are invite to come to Him even the little children.

When I grew up my parents always would bring us. They said if the kids are not invited ... then we are not going either.

Many of us are just kids. Praise God He invites the kids.

[Woody]

Quote:

And if we truly love Christ, and know the power of God in our lives, we will also be unwilling to go on sinning deliberately.

I will continue to sin ... knowingly sin ... until the day I die. That is the reality of us all. Praise God He died for those sins. If we know something is sin ... we pray to God for the power to overcome it. But that prayer is not always answered. We may come to that situation and not want to sin ... but we will. But since Jesus died for sinners and even willful sinners .... I can be assured of my place in Heaven.

Praise God for His Goodness !!

[Woody]

Quote:

Nevertheless if we stand firm in the truth (I'm Not saying that about me but in general) we will find that the victories that we are lacking now will become a reality very quickly.

What happens if we die before we reach that complete compliance and victory over all willful sin? Since I have not arrived ... I still willfully sin ... if I die ... am I condemned to Hell?

OR is the blood of Jesus enough to cover that? I look forward to your answer.

[Gerr]

I would never serve a King that didn't invite everyone to the party. The King I serve says that ALL are invite to come to Him even the little children.

When I grew up my parents always would bring us. They said if the kids are not invited ... then we are not going either.

Many of us are just kids. Praise God He invites the kids.

Nowhere did I intimate that everyone are not invited. In the parable, ALL are invited, but not everyone accepted. And there was one who accepted the invitation but refused the wedding garment. It was he who was cast out and locked out.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

He has chosen ALL of us to come to Him. He will in no wise cast out ANY of us.

"But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment......Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness...." Mt 22:11,13 NKJ.

"And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt 25:30 NKJ.

Gerry

[Gerr]

It's the second part of your statement. Although Jesus said, "No one who comes to me I will be no means cast out." Jn 6:37 NIV. But He also said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out...." Jn 15:6 NIV.

Gerry

[Woody]

It's the second part of your statement. Although Jesus said, "No one who comes to me I will be no means cast out." Jn 6:37 NIV. But He also said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out...." Jn 15:6 NIV.

Gerry

He does not cast out anyone who comes wanting to know Him. The act of coming to Him Gerry. Read the context. The previous sentence. The subject of the discussion. He wants ALL to COME to Him. He does not pick and choose who is allowed to COME to Him. He has predestined or preordained that ALL should come TO HIM. You know ... the subject of this discussion. He has preordained that ALL of us will come to Him and be saved. Will we all do that? NO.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Nevertheless if we stand firm in the truth (I'm Not saying that about me but in general) we will find that the victories that we are lacking now will become a reality very quickly.

What happens if we die before we reach that complete compliance and victory over all willful sin? Since I have not arrived ... I still willfully sin ... if I die ... am I condemned to Hell?

OR is the blood of Jesus enough to cover that? I look forward to your answer.

The key is the word "willfully". My understanding is that if you continue to "willfully" commit adultery, "willfully" cheat on your taxes, "willfully" bow down to idols, "willfully" take God's name in vain, then yes, my Bible says you would be condemned to hell. "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?....because of them he shall die." Ez 18:24 NKJ.

That is NOT my doctrine, that is what the Bible says.

The Good News is: we do have a Savior who will save His people FROM their sins, NOT in their sins. He who commanded to "Go and sin no more," is the same one who promised to provide the power to accomplish it.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

The key is the word "willfully". My understanding is that if you continue to "willfully" commit adultery, "willfully" cheat on your taxes, "willfully" bow down to idols, "willfully" take God's name in vain, then yes, you would be condemned to hell.

I am very sincerely sorry to hear that this is your belief.

All of my sins ... I do with my eyes open. You could say ... I am addicted. But praise God ... He loves me despite my sins.

[Woody]

Quote:

The Good News is: we do have a Savior who will save His people FROM their sins, NOT in their sins. He who commanded to "Go and sin no more," is the same one who promised to provide the power to accomplish it.

I am equally sorry to hear this. For a lot of Biblical characters of strong report will be lost. And not that it is of significance ... but then I am lost also.

He does save you IN your sins. We ALL have sins in our life. He loves us and saves us despite those sins. He also has the power to help us over come sin ... but that is a totally different kettle of fish.

It is a dangerous philosophy to think that we have to have God remove all sin before He can save us.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The key is the word "willfully". My understanding is that if you continue to "willfully" commit adultery, "willfully" cheat on your taxes, "willfully" bow down to idols, "willfully" take God's name in vain, then yes, you would be condemned to hell.

I am very sincerely sorry to hear that this is your belief.

No, it is your belief that God would admit into heaven while willfully/intentionally continue fornicate, murder, steal, bow down to idols that I would be really sorry for. If God admitted into heaven people who continue to intentionally/willfully/premeditatively cheat on their wives or taxes, bow down to idols, disrespect their parents, bear false witness, then what would heaven be like? It would be no different than what we have now. Otherwise, where then is the repentance? The new birth? The transformation?

Gerry

[Gerr]

My Bible says: "...you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people FROM their sins." Mt 1:21 NKJ.

The very point of Jesus becoming man is "that He might destroy the works of the devil." 1 Jn 1:9 NKJ. He has promised to do that in the life of everyone who abides in Him.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

No, it is your belief that God would admit into heaven while willfully/intentionally continue fornicate, murder, steal, bow down to idols that I would be really sorry for. If God admitted into heaven people who continue to intentionally/willfully/premeditatively cheat on their wives or taxes, bow down to idols, disrespect their parents, bear false witness, then what would heaven be like? It would be no different than what we have now. Otherwise, where then is the repentance? The new birth? The transformation?

Yes ... Gerry, we are ALL sinners and we all do or are just as guilty as the ones who do each of the above. He allows these people because it is for those people who He died for. And those who are forgiven much will love much.

When we SEE HIM at the second coming ... we will be changed. So, Heaven will be safe. The corruptible will be made incorruptible. We all will need to be changed from what we are like on this earth. I would not trust ANY of YOU or ME in Heaven. Not even our characters are safe to go to Heaven. But after the second coming ... I would be happy to have you and me in Heaven. That IS the transformation. And won't it be a glorious day. I can hold hands with a murderer. Praise God.

[Woody]

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My Bible says: "...you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people FROM their sins."

Yes, and each time they sin ... He saves them from their sins .... Again and Again and Again.

[Woody]

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Otherwise, where then is the repentance? The new birth?

OH. I didn't mean to neglect this part Gerry.

There is always repentance. Each and every time we sin ... there should be repentance. The new birth? At baptism we experience the new birth ... but that does not mean that we stop sinning with all known sins. No we continue to struggle. We still look at sin and say ...I don't want to .. but ... Hey I still like that. But we come to Christ and repent.

[Gerr]

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Otherwise, where then is the repentance? The new birth?

OH. I didn't mean to neglect this part Gerry.

There is always repentance. Each and every time we sin ... there should be repentance. The new birth? At baptism we experience the new birth ... but that does not mean that we stop sinning with all known sins. No we continue to struggle. We still look at sin and say ...I don't want to .. but ... Hey I still like that. But we come to Christ and repent.

"If we decide to go on sinning after we have learned the truth, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26 NCV

"Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins." NLT

"For if we willfully persist in sin after having received a knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." NRSV

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left." NIV

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a knowledge of the truth." NASB

"For there is no longer a sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us." GNT

Gk hekousios - 1. voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord. Enhanced Strong

"willing", "intentional", "noncompulsory". It denotes intentional transgressions by those who know saving truth. Theol Dict of NT.

Gerry

[Gerr]

BTW, Redwood, may I ask you a question?

What determines doctrinal truths, the Bible or our opinions?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

1. voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord. Enhanced Strong

"willing", "intentional", "noncompulsory". It denotes intentional transgressions by those who know saving truth. Theol Dict of NT.

Yes. Of my own accord I make the decision to sin. It is MY responsibility. I accept that. No one is forcing me to sin. No one is holding a gun to my head. I sin willfully. I don't want to ... or I wish I didn't ... but I still on my own decision ... make the decision to sin.

We will all continue to do this until the day we die. But we will also repent. And we have a Redeemer who is not limited to which sins He will forgive. We sin and repent ... and He forgives. That is just the way it is. He will in no wise cast us out when we come to Him. For ALL willfully sin and come short of the Glory of God.

Quote:

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome, there will be no stopping place" EGW AA 560

[Woody]

BTW, Redwood, may I ask you a question?

What determines doctrinal truths, the Bible or our opinions?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

BTW, Redwood, may I ask you a question?

What determines doctrinal truths, the Bible or our opinions?

Gerry

There are some members that think THEY "determine what is THE truth. I don't pretend to know what is truth. I determine what is truth for me personally. I don't determine what is truth for you or anyone else. I belong to a church that "I" believe teaches what I believe to be truth for me. You can belong to a church that you feels teaches what is truth for you.

We will ALL find out just how wrong we all are when we get to Heaven. That is why it will take us so many years to be reprogrammed.

Quote:

"And this advancement may not only be continued during the present life, but it may go forward during the ETERNAL AGES" 2 Mind, Character + Personality p.563 Ellen White

Frankly, I am beginning to wonder whether you are placing YOUR opinions above the Bible. For these reasons:

1. The Bible says that Jesus is to save people FROM their sins, Mt. 1:21. Now, that is not my opinion. You flatly contradict it and claim Jesus saves us IN our sins.

2. The Bible plainly says that if we continue to WILLFULLY/DELIBERATELY sin, no sacrifice remains, Heb 10:26. Yet you flatly contradict it and bravely proclaim you WILLFULLY, without anyone putting a gun to your head, continue to live in rebellion and still have the assurance of salvation.

3. The Bible plainly says that those who abide in God will not continue to deliberately/willfully sin, 1 Jn 3:9, yet you flatly contradict that that is not true.

4. The Bible plainly says that when a righteous man turns to wickedness he will die, EZ 18:24, yet you flatly place your opinion above it and continue to claim that such a person still has assurance of eternal life.

I believe what the Bible says and is THE standard by which I base my beliefs and not the other way around. If it were not so, then there is no reason to discuss anything, since everyone's opinion is just as good as another's.

Gerry

[Woody]

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Frankly, I am beginning to wonder whether you are placing YOUR opinions above the Bible.

Gerry ... My opinions of what the Bible says is all I have. I make no claims to having THE truth.

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The Bible says that Jesus is to save people FROM their sins, Mt. 1:21. Now, that is not my opinion. You flatly contradict it and claim Jesus saves us IN our sins.

As I have outlined. God's purpose is to do both.

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bravely proclaim you WILLFULLY, without anyone putting a gun to your head, continue to live in rebellion and still have the assurance of salvation.

It is true ... I continue to make the decision to do that which I don't want to do. No one is forcing me with a gun to sin. I am addicted to sin. It is an illness that God forgives when I repent. And YES ... I do have the assurance that He forgives me and that I do in fact have the salvation that He has given to me.

Quote:

The Bible plainly says that those who abide in God will not continue to deliberately/willfully sin, 1 Jn 3:9, yet you flatly contradict that that is not true

What you say is true in my mind. IF we abide totally IN Him we will not sin. But the problem is that I do not always abide IN Him. But when I fall ... I do not fall away from His love, forgiveness and good graces. He Still offers me forgiveness.

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The Bible plainly says that when a righteous man turns to wickedness he will die, EZ 18:24, yet you flatly place your opinion above it and continue to claim that such a person still has assurance of eternal life.

Gerry .... The wages of sin is Death. You are correct. That is why I need a Saviour/Redeemer. Adam and Eve were told that if they ate the fruit that they would die. This truth remains.

Quote:

I believe what the Bible says and is THE standard by which I base my beliefs and not the other way around. If it were not so, then there is no reason to discuss anything, since everyone's opinion is just as good as another's.

I am glad for your testimony Gerry. I agree with you and that is mine also. But that is just my opinion. You are free to have your opinion on what you think the Bible says ... and it always makes for a good discussion of opinions.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:Nevertheless if we stand firm in the truth (I'm Not saying that about me but in general) we will find that the victories that we are lacking now will become a reality very quickly.

What happens if we die before we reach that complete compliance and victory over all willful sin? Since I have not arrived ... I still willfully sin ... if I die ... am I condemned to Hell?

OR is the blood of Jesus enough to cover that? I look forward to your answer.

I just saw this today.

I can repeat what the Bible says and then make a comment.

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. This is saying that a person who is just, may fall, but when he does he doesn't stay there enjoying the sin. The wicked on the other hand do stay in the sin and enjoy it.

It's up to you to answer what you do when you fall, I cannot do that. I do know that if anyone willfully sins and has no remorse or desire to change they do not have the Spirit of Christ and if they were to die in that state they would be lost.

Grace is for those who ask for it, love is bestoyed upon all. Paul uses this term, "you have fallen from grace" referring to those who try to justify themselves by keeping the law. This tells me that grace is for those who ask for it and don't try to earn forgiveness. What does that have to do with this? If we continue to willfully sin we are also fallen from grace and should we die we'd be lost. Why? Because we not only are we not even trying to earn forgiveness (which is futile) but we are not even interested in asking.

Norman