Salvation by Faith

[Woody]

Quote:

I quote her only because your side-kick keeps bringing her up when it suits him.

I do the same. I quote her when it suits ME. Some think there is something wrong to only quote her when you agree with her. I see no problem with that. Of course we could also quote her when we disagree with her. All that is healthy in my mind.

The best option though would be to never quote her and to just rely on the Bible. But since that is not reality in the SDA church ... we have to cope with the quotes.

[John317]

It is true ... I continue to make the decision to do that which I don't want to do. No one is forcing me with a gun to sin. I am addicted to sin. It is an illness that God forgives when I repent. And YES ... I do have the assurance that He forgives me and that I do in fact have the salvation that He has given to me.

People are addicted to sin, and make continual, deliberate decisions to sin when they are not truly converted and don't have the Holy Spirit abiding in them. The Bible states this clearly. Study well 1 John 3: 1-10. True conversion and the Holy Spirit in the life will make one hate sin and will cause one to break with any addiction to it. I know this personally from experience as well as from Bible study. No one was addicted to sin more than I was. I absolutely lived for it, thirsted and hungered for it; craved it in the deepest parts of me, and had no satisfaction apart from it. I wanted it fiercely every waking moment and sometimes even in my sleep.

I lived like that for 35+ years, even after I studied for the ministry. I stopped working in the ministry because, like you, I thought that I could not cease to sin. I intended to commit it. I didn't know that Christ could help me stop it and give me a hatred for it. At that point I'm not sure that I would have wanted to stop even if I could have. It requires the Holy Spirit to give us a desire to stop sinning, and I know that I didn't have the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Holy Spirit would convict me of sin, true, but that is not the same as having the Holy Spirit directing one's life.

What you say tells me that you have not come to the point where you want Christ more than you want anything else, including your sins. You want both. But what you don't realize is that you can not have sin and Christ, too. You have to come to the point where you completely realize your desperate need of Christ. You have to die to sin and self. Christ alone will give you the hatred of sin, but you must ask him-- and keep asking Him-- to give you such a hatred, because on your own you will love it, and loving it leads to death. God will not take anyone to heaven loving and deliberately and continually choosing to commit sin. That is why He says, You must be born again. Only through the new birth does God make us all over new inside so that we hate sin and love righteousness. Study Romans 5 through 8; First John chapters 3 to 5; and 2 Peter 1.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

This is more legalism. In fact it's worse. In your theology you have reduced God's law to rules you know of or can keep and somehow think this gives you eternal life. This is salvation by partial credit.

Rob you can believe what you wish. I have been on all sides of this and know that what I say is the truth that is found in God's word not Jack Sequeira's books.

I was once a super legalist living at Uchee Pines for two years. Total Vegan, totally involved with all ministries that I could get into. Bible studies, two meals day, no TV what so ever not even radio or newspaper; that stuff was too worldly for me. I had no car, no house, no job, no money and gave everything that I could to be a good SDA.

Then I got tired of that and left the church for ten years, doing a complete 180. After a 8 years I began to see a need I eventaully went back to church and was introduced to Jack's stuff and I fought with it at first because I still had a tad of legalism in me. But when I met God my Father everything changed I began to look at what Jack wrote and when I read it alone it sounded great! When I compaired to the Bible and SOP though, it left me confused. I wanted to believe so much but I could not do it because it simply is not scriptural. I had no peace believing in Jack's stuff, none! My Father has guided me to a guilt free, clear conscience, spiritual life.

I have experienced every aspect of life and death (spiritual) that one can and I know that I am following the truth. When you have an experience with God, you will change your convictions or you may do as I did, fight it for a while. But this one thing I know, in order for someone to believe what Jack writes one has to convince oneself against the plain truth and unless one doesn't see that soon, it may well be impossible to escape that trap.

The only hope of escaping that trap is to experience God's love Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

You have to come to the point where you completely realize your desperate need of Christ. You have to die to sin and self. Christ alone will give you the hatred of sin, but you must ask him-- and keep asking Him-- to give you such a hatred, because on your own you will love it, and loving it leads to death. God will not take anyone to heaven loving and deliberately and continually choosing to commit sin. That is why He says, You must be born again. Only through the new birth does God make us all over new inside so that we hate sin and love righteousness.

John 317, this is what happened to me even after I came back to church. One day I was reading Rev 3, the message to the Laodicean church and I realized that what I was reading was me. The Lord gave me an object lesson. He said Norman, you remember when you were young and your mother tried to make you eat liver. I thought on man I began to gag just thinking about it. Then He said this is how I feel about you.

That gave me an understanding about how much He hates sin. I began to weep uncontrollably and begged God to help me change because I knew I could not. I knew I wanted to do what was right but I was not able to do it. After I had wepted for a while He assured me that He would do this for me, just like He helped me pray when I kepted forgetting to.

What a powerful and loving God we serve. I truly feel sorry for those who cannot or don't know how to experience His power

It is a serious matter to play with sin and I am not intersted in being spewed out of the mouth of my Lord. I am so thankful that by His Spirit and the love that He's put in me I can do those things that He asked of me and resist those things that I'm tempted with. Not perfect or sinless but growing in grace.

Norman

[Woody]

Thanks for all your good advice John. But I don't agree with it. I am sure it works for you. But it does not work for me. I have been there and done that. Praise God He lifted me out of that belief.

Quote:

But what you don't realize is that you can not have sin and Christ, too.

I am sorry you believe that. For sure that belief is not for me. Christ died for my sins. He is there for me each and every time I sin. And yes ... I will continue to sin until the day I die. And I will also have Christ until the day I die. I only wish you could experience the joy of knowing that as I do.

He will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.

[Robert]

But what you don't realize is that you can not have sin and Christ, too.

Matt 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

[Robert]

But this one thing I know, in order for someone to believe what Jack writes one has to convince oneself against the plain truth and unless one doesn't see that soon, it may well be impossible to escape that trap.

Your nature is deceiving you in this matter.

[Robert]

It is a serious matter to play with sin and I am not interested in being spewed out of the mouth of my Lord.

The message to Laodicea is a message to repent from self-righteousness.

What greater deception can come upon human minds than confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition , the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct." [3T, 252]

[Robert]

Redwood, have you ever seen the following quotes by the legalists?

"There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the spirit of God are heeded.”

Do you know the context of the above? You might be surprised. Here it is:

"So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation." [The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials

794]

[Robert]

“I {EGW} asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it [the shaking] would be caused bythe straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.….They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.”--1T 181 (1857)."

Okay, what is “the straight testimony” from “the true witness” [Christ] to “the Laodiceans”? I’ll give you EGW:

"The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness." [3T 252]

"Many are Laodiceans, living in a spiritual self-deception. [in what way?] They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness, imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness." [OHC 349]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

The message to Laodicea is a message to repent from self-righteousness.

right, and that has nothing to do with sin? In the light of that nessage Rev 3, one who is self-righteous will look at himself and be abhorred with the sin and selfishness in this life and the inability to do anything about it. The cry for help comes for all forms of sinners.

[Robert]

"The doctrine of grace and salvation through Jesus Christ is a mystery to a large share of those whose names are upon the church books. If Christ were upon the earth speaking to His people, He would reproach them for their slowness of comprehension." [3SM 188]

[Robert]

Quote:

The message to Laodicea is a message to repent from self-righteousness.

In the light of that nessage Rev 3, one who is self-righteous will look at himself and be abhorred with the sin and selfishness in this life....

No, self-righteousness is believing one is not sinful and selfish. You've got it backwards.

[Gerr]

Thanks for all your good advice John. But I don't agree with it. I am sure it works for you. But it does not work for me. I have been there and done that. Praise God He lifted me out of that belief.

Quote:

But what you don't realize is that you can not have sin and Christ, too.

I am sorry you believe that. For sure that belief is not for me. Christ died for my sins. He is there for me each and every time I sin. And yes ... I will continue to sin until the day I die. And I will also have Christ until the day I die. I only wish you could experience the joy of knowing that as I do.

He will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.

"NO MAN CAN SERVE 2 MASTERS." JESUS

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Quote:

The message to Laodicea is a message to repent from self-righteousness.

In the light of that nessage Rev 3, one who is self-righteous will look at himself and be abhorred with the sin and selfishness in this life....

No, self-righteousness is believing one is not sinful and selfish. You've got it backwards.

Living righteously by faith is not self-righteousness.

Gerry

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Norman

But this one thing I know, in order for someone to believe what Jack writes one has to convince oneself against the plain truth and unless one doesn't see that soon, it may well be impossible to escape that trap.

Your nature is deceiving you in this matter.

I think prayer is the answer ....

[Woody]

“I {EGW} asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it [the shaking] would be caused bythe straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.….They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.”--1T 181 (1857)."

Okay, what is “the straight testimony” from “the true witness” [Christ] to “the Laodiceans”? I’ll give you EGW:

"The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness." [3T 252]

"Many are Laodiceans, living in a spiritual self-deception. [in what way?] They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness, imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness." [OHC 349]

Thank you Robert for clearly identifying the issue and for showing us what Ellen White is REALLY talking about. This is important to do when quoting Ellen White and I think you have clearly been the myth detector in this situation.

Good Work.

[John317]

I am sorry you believe that. For sure that belief is not for me. Christ died for my sins. He is there for me each and every time I sin.

Of course Christ died for your and my sins, and of course every time we sin and truly repent of it, he is there for us. The question is not whether God is willing to forgive our sins. The question is, as Paul asked, How CAN we continue living in sin any longer?

The Bible says very plainly that sin separates from God. Every time we sin, it has a negative reaction on us. It changes us. It's like when a man cheats on his wife: his actions change how he feels about his wife. Deliberate sinning and disloyalty to God changes our relationship to God. Even those sins that are eventually forgiven leave a scar on the heart and mind.

"Even thus consider yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore rule as king in your mortal body, that you should obey its desires" (Romans 6: 11-12). Being dead to sin means we don't obey sin's desires. We're fully alive to Christ and respond to Him, but as Christians we're to consider ourselves completely dead to sin.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

“I {EGW} asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it [the shaking] would be caused bythe straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.….They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.”--1T 181 (1857)."

Okay, what is “the straight testimony” from “the true witness” [Christ] to “the Laodiceans”? I’ll give you EGW:

"The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness." [3T 252]

"Many are Laodiceans, living in a spiritual self-deception. [in what way?] They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness, imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness." [OHC 349]

Thank you Robert for clearly identifying the issue and for showing us what Ellen White is REALLY talking about. This is important to do when quoting Ellen White and I think you have clearly been the myth detector in this situation.

Good Work.

Hmmmmmm. Rehash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, self-righteousness is believing one is not sinful and selfish. You've got it backwards. [/quote']

Living righteously by faith is not self-righteousness.

Gerry

It is if you think you are measuring up!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I am sorry you believe that. For sure that belief is not for me. Christ died for my sins. He is there for me each and every time I sin.

...and of course every time we sin and truly repent of it, he is there for us.

[Robert]

Hmmmmmm. Rehash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

Well, it applies to you. Take it to heart.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Norman Quote:The message to Laodicea is a message to repent from self-righteousness.

In the light of that nessage Rev 3, one who is self-righteous will look at himself and be abhorred with the sin and selfishness in this life....

No, self-righteousness is believing one is not sinful and selfish. You've got it backwards.

What I meant was, this would happen if they accept the message.

[carolaa]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Norman Quote:The message to Laodicea is a message to repent from self-righteousness.

In the light of that nessage Rev 3, one who is self-righteous will look at himself and be abhorred with the sin and selfishness in this life....

No, self-righteousness is believing one is not sinful and selfish. You've got it backwards.

What I meant was, this would happen if they accept the message.

Hey, Norman, I understood what you meant - the first time! Yea!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Hey, Norman, I understood what you meant - the first time! Yea!

This is a good thing! When I read Rob's reply I thought, "did I write that wrong?" I thought about it for a minute and then realized no, he justed missed my point; but you got it!

Norman