Perfect Obedience

[olger]

I'm ok with that - it is the same with me.

Just don't elevate sin over obedience in the sanctified life -- won't wash.

regards,

oG

[Gerr]

dAb ... you have a point there. I wonder WHO is doing the 'blabbering'?

The blabbering, my dear, RW, is yours and mine.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yes, I can claim that I have stopped living in willful rebellion against the God of heaven.

Personally I sin and I sin willfully.

I make the choice to sin.

Red, I can't think of a more terrible anti-gospel teaching as this!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that is the case, then I suggest you go back to square one and learn what repentance, conversion, and being born again mean.

If you are still living in rebellion against the gov't of heaven, how then can you claim to have a relationship with Christ? How can you claim the covenant blessings if your are willfully living against the conditions you have agreed to keep? If you are still living in rebellion against the laws of God, how then can God take you into His house while shutting out those who are doing the same thing as you but make no claim to know Christ?

Well, friend, if you want to wallow and take pride in your willful disobedience, that is your business, but please don't try to palm this travesty of grace as good news.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: olger

Thanks.

I find righteousness by disobedience to be as useless as righteousness by obedience.

regards,

oG

(ps. You'll be fine Robt)

I have NO Righteousness. But, the Righteousness of Christ is placed to my account so that I am 'viewed' as perfect.

Another way to word this is that MY Righteousness is as filthy rags towards my salvation.

"He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is NOT in him." 1 Jn 2:4 NKJ

"..He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment." 1SM 382.

Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

so far I haven't met anyone who uses all the power available to keep all His commands.

This is placing personal experience above the Word of God. Our questions should always be 'what does the Bible say?' not 'what is the experience of others?'

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I fear that some people take Romans 7 as the mantra of their whole christian experience

It was written by Paul!

"our beloved brother Paul... in all his epistles... in which are some things hard to be understood" (2 Ptr 3:15,16)

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Personally I sin and I sin willfully.

I make the choice to sin.

No one is forcing me to make wrong decisions. And I am man enough to admit that I betray my Saviour who shed His blood for me.

Here is some stuff from Paul:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor. 10:13

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Phlp 1:6

[John317]

Personally ... as for me and mine .... We sin and will sin until the day we die.

I think it's important to adopt the attitude and the desires of the Bible writers. They don't say things such as, "I will sin until the day I die."

More typical is what the Psalmist says:

"Oh, that my ways were directed to keep Your statutes!"

"With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!"

"Teach me, O Lord, the way of Your statutes, and I shall keep it to the end"?

While the Bible does obviously teach that we have a fallen nature until the Second Coming, it also teaches that Christ enables believers to overcome every temptation. There is, therefore, no legitimate excuse for sin.

Quote:

I will never come to the place where I will say to anyone that I have stopped sinning.

If anyone, prior to Christ's return, were to say, "I have stopped sinning," it would be proof that they have no real understanding of human nature, of sin, and of the law of God. The truth is that the closer we come to Christ, the more aware we are of our own sinfulness apart from Him. At the same time, the closer our walk with Christ, the more we focus on Christ, and the more we are conscious of His presence and direction in our own lives. This consciousness of Him in our lives gives us confidence in Him and in His leading.

Quote:

Christ came to die for those who sin. Those who 'think' they are without sin ... are without God

What does 1 John 1: 8 mean when it says, "If we say, 'We are without sin,' we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"?

John is saying that they are wrong who claim they have never sinned or that they do not have a sinful, fallen nature and that they are incapable of sin and therefore do not need Christ's forgiveness. Compare 1 John 1: 10.

Does it mean that everyone, irrespective of their relationship to Christ, is willfully and intentionally practicing sinning? No. For if all believers willfully and intentionally practice sinning, then John could not have written 1 John 3: 1-10. There the apostle makes clear that those who are truly born of God do not continue to practice sin. In fact, such a person, born of the Spirit, cannot keep on sinning willfully and intentionally. That being the case, it's impossible for John to mean that there is no difference between those who willfully and intentionally practice sinning and those who practice righteousness, or keep God's commandments (cf. 1 John 2: 4; 3: 10, 22-24; 5: 18).

Compare Romans 6: 1, 15 where the apostle Paul makes clear that we have a choice whether to continue in sin. Believers do not HAVE TO GO ON PRACTICING SIN. If sin goes on being a normal, continuous practice in our lives after we believe in Christ, then the Bible teaches that we have good reason to question whether we have been truly born of God. In that case, we need to take a close, prayerful look at our relationship with Christ.

Do I really love Christ?

Do I really have His Spirit abiding in my life?

Is Christ really in me?

Do I really have trust in Christ's power to save me from sin?

And am I putting that trust into practice in my daily life? If not, why not?

Quote:

for He cannot help those who 'think' they are no longer willfully sinning. Those are beyond His help.

I would agree that He cannot help those who think they are not falling short of God's glorious plan for their lives or that they are incapable of sinning or do not need God's forgiveness. But, as 1 John 3: 1-10 says, if we find that we are willfully practicing sin, then we cannot possibly at the same time be practicing righteousness, and therefore, we need to make sure that we are in right relationship with God and have the Holy Spirit abiding in our lives.

[Robert]

Quote:

I fear that some people take Romans 7 as the mantra of their whole christian experience

It was written by Paul!

"our beloved brother Paul... in all his epistles... in which are some things hard to be understood" (2 Ptr 3:15,16)

Those who can't understand Paul end up legalists!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Quote:

I fear that some people take Romans 7 as the mantra of their whole christian experience

It was written by Paul!

"our beloved brother Paul... in all his epistles... in which are some things hard to be understood" (2 Ptr 3:15,16)

Those who can't understand Paul end up legalists!

It's a big mistake for anyone to consider Romans 7 as their goal in the Christian life. The man of Romans 7: 13-24 is neither filled nor led or controlled by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in those verses because it is not yet part of that man's experience. It doesn't become part of his experience until Romans 8.

By the way, this is also according to the view of Jack Sequeira. See pp. 52, 53 of The Cross of Christ, where he says, "Remember in Romans 7: 14-25, Paul is not discussing the Christian controlled by the Holy Spirit. It is clear he is talking about the believer but he is talking about the believer who is trying to live a holy life in and of himself."

Therefore, we shouldn't consider Romans 7 as a description of how our spiritual experience should be. We should really be trying to find a way to avoid it, and to make Romans 6 and 8 our goal and pattern, because therein lies the Spirit and freedom. In Romans 7 lies only struggle and spiritual wretchedness. Romans 8 provides the only resolution, which is life in the Spirit.

[John317]

Quote:

so far I haven't met anyone who uses all the power available to keep all His commands.

This is placing personal experience above the Word of God. Our questions should always be 'what does the Bible say?' not 'what is the experience of others?'

I completely agree with this. Otherwise, our views will simply be our subjective opinions based on personal experience, which of course is completely unreliable. That is exactly what Eve did-- she depended on her ideas and feelings rather than on God's word.

Elijah's feelings were that he alone was serving God, but God told Elijah that he was wrong, because He said there were many in Israel who were serving Him. In the same way, our experience may be totally wrong when it comes to knowing how many are serving God.

[John317]

Quote:

Yes, I can claim that I have stopped living in willful rebellion against the God of heaven.

Personally I sin and I sin willfully.

I make the choice to sin.

No one is forcing me to make wrong decisions. And I am man enough to admit that I betray my Saviour who shed His blood for me.

I've given Him my life. But I continue to fail. I am selfish and self centered. So, at times I choose sin. I "willfully" decide for sin.

Praise God ... He loves me , forgive me , and accepts me anyway. He knows my heart and my desire to serve Him. But I am saved not by my best effort PLUS His 'divine merit'. I am saved 100% by HIS divine merit. And it is always there for me. My sins do not change His forgiveness. My works do not in any way add to the salvation He so lovingly bestows upon me as a 'free gift'.

The good news is that I don't have to earn the 'free gift'. And I praise God for that. For I would fail to obtain it if it was up to me.

You can call me whatever you want ... but I praise God that He has GIVEN to me the gift of Salvation that His blood paid for. I am not going to be so blasphemous as to say that anything "I" do can compare to what He has done.

Consider the following description of SDA beliefs:

Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

It seems to me that you are saying NOBODY KEEPS GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AND NOBODY HAS REMAINED LOYAL TO GOD. Yet if that's true, the Bible contains a lot of lies because it says in many places that God has people who keep His commandments and who are loyal to Him. For instance, was Caleb a liar when he said, "I wholly followed the Lord my God"?

Again, was the Holy Spirit lying when He inspired Luke to write about Zacharias and Elizabeth, "they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless"?

Finally, was the apostle inspired to lie in 1 John 2: 3,4 when he testifies, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"? Is John there saying that everyone is a liar and that the truth is not in anyone at all? No. John obviously believed that there were those who were keeping God's commandments and that the truth is in them.

Why not pray and talk of being found among those kind of people and not among those who disobey and resist God all of their lives? If we talk of disobeying and resisting, we shouldn't be surprised-- should we?-- if that's exactly what we do. Our words and thoughts will have their effect. They will work their way out in the life. It makes a world of difference whether we keep saying, "I will always disobey God," or whether we keep thinking, praying, saying, and singing, "By His grace I will obey Him."

"Trust and obey, for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

[olger]

Quote:

"It seems to me that you are saying NOBODY KEEPS GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AND NOBODY HAS REMAINED LOYAL TO GOD.

That is precisely what has been said. And said and said..with gusto. Just because a person is passionate about an idea doesn't make it a correct idea.

A long time ago there were a group of people who identified themselves as the Awakeners who were desperately afraid that they might do something to add to their salvation. Wouldn't it be something if I never communicated with my wife for fear that I might add to our marriage?

"He leads me in paaths of righeousness for HIS NAME'S sake."

oG

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Those who can't understand Paul end up legalists!

The Apostle Peter was a legalist? :R

[John317]

Good point.

It's not for nothing that the Bible often compares our relationship with God to marriage.

What would we think of a marriage where the spouses willfully practice unfaithfulness and say that they will continue to do the same until the day they die, yet praise each other for staying in the marriage, and claim that this is proof of their undying love?

Wouldn't we be right to point out that if they had such undying love for one another as they claim, they would stop practicing unfaithfulness and instead practice loyalty?

But then what if one of them replied that this unfaithfulness is normal and regular-- that everyone is really unfaithful anyway-- and only shows how wonderful the marriage relationship is? Wouldn't that, in fact, only demonstrate there is no genuine "love" between them but that it is only a "marriage of convenience"?

[John317]

There seems to be a lot of tough talk about keeping all the commands of God. No doubt there is God's power to do so ... but so far I haven't met anyone who uses all the power available to keep all His commands.

Is there anyone out there that would like add their name to a list of those who now can say they are fully keeping all of God's commands?

I will start the list and notice it is blank. My name is not on it ...

1.)

This is what's called a catch-22. You say no one obeys God's commandments because no one adds their name to your list, but if anyone did add it, you would question the truthfulness of their claim. Therefore, your argument is invalid, because it's based on a false premise, that since no one says they are keeping God's commandments, there must not be anyone keeping them.

Instead of basing our view of these things on our personal impressions and observations about people, we ought to be seeking to understand what the Bible teaches. It teaches that by God's grace it's possible for believers to overcome every temptation, and it teaches that there will be people living before Christ comes who obey God's commandments and keep the faith of Jesus. The only question to be answered, then, is whether we will be finally numbered among them.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yes, I can claim that I have stopped living in willful rebellion against the God of heaven.

Personally I sin and I sin willfully.

I make the choice to sin.

No one is forcing me to make wrong decisions. And I am man enough to admit that I betray my Saviour who shed His blood for me.

I've given Him my life. But I continue to fail. I am selfish and self centered. So, at times I choose sin. I "willfully" decide for sin.

Praise God ... He loves me , forgive me , and accepts me anyway. He knows my heart and my desire to serve Him. But I am saved not by my best effort PLUS His 'divine merit'. I am saved 100% by HIS divine merit. And it is always there for me. My sins do not change His forgiveness. My works do not in any way add to the salvation He so lovingly bestows upon me as a 'free gift'.

The good news is that I don't have to earn the 'free gift'. And I praise God for that. For I would fail to obtain it if it was up to me.

You can call me whatever you want ... but I praise God that He has GIVEN to me the gift of Salvation that His blood paid for. I am not going to be so blasphemous as to say that anything "I" do can compare to what He has done.

You can praise God and claim salvation all you want, but here is what the WORD OF GOD says:

[color:red]Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

PAUL in Gal 5:19-21 NKJ.

Or did I twist what Paul said to suit myself?

Gerry

[Raphael]

May I submit my name on your list, Redwood. I yearn as I believe all and every living individual yearns to be ... perfect, unblemished... but woe and alas, I keep on being in this imperfect state. Thanks if any one would be kind enough to pray for me. But yes I do experience growth ... though the challenges seemingly continues to keep up with the growths and developments.

I suppose being purified as precious gems of this earth is a mind and body shrieking experience which anybody at a fleeting thought would rather choose sin and its easy paths. But then can one decide their course especially upon those who try to maintain honesty with himself or herself. Changing traits is not easy, one may be cursed with appetite for quests of what ever.. growth in human resources, careers, jobs, businesses which are all intertwine into one. They are all in the same theme of growing into perfection. One may easily add the term heavenly and spiritual to it. It is far from the simple idea of simply not doing mistakes but growing new never-ending skills and resources. One could also easily apply the word sin to anything less than perfect.

Bless you,

Raphael

[Woody]

Well .... I am disappointed. I thought the conservative crowd could do better than this. You guys have traveled down a lot of side trips. Built up your own condemnations and answered them for yourselves. But no one has addressed the issue that NO one is willing to say they are perfect enough to be saved.

So, the list remains empty. And the truth that we will continue to sin until we die remains the truth. You build up a standard that none of you are able or willing to meet. Perfection will come in the life hereafter. And we get there through the ONLY one who achieved that ... Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Gerr]

Well .... I am disappointed. I thought the conservative crowd could do better than this. You guys have traveled down a lot of side trips. Built up your own condemnations and answered them for yourselves. But no one has addressed the issue that NO one is willing to say they are perfect enough to be saved.

So, the list remains empty. And the truth that we will continue to sin until we die remains the truth. You build up a standard that none of you are able or willing to meet. Perfection will come in the life hereafter. And we get there through the ONLY one who achieved that ... Jesus Christ. Amen.

Because you have built yourself a strawman, that those among us who believe that those who have repented and received forgiveness will go on to obey by faith, do so without ever making any mistakes ever again. NO ONE HAS EVER CLAIMED THAT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

Gerry

[Guest truthseeker007]

Even Ellen White said she was sad because she couldn t adapt to her own standards. At least that s what i ve found on some online documentary about Ellen White. A wonderfull experience i think is the second half of this movie:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=7...earch&plindex=4

Please check it out

[John317]

Even Ellen White said she was sad because she couldn t adapt to her own standards. At least that s what i ve found on some online documentary about Ellen White. A wonderfull experience i think is the second half of this movie:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=7...earch&plindex=4

Please check it out

Excellent videos.

Of course Ellen White was not perfect but was in need of God's righteousness and of His forgiveness. She did not hide this fact but made it plain in everything she wrote or said. But the point, as far as this thread is concerned, is that she didn't practice sin-- that is, she did not deliberately and continually go against what she knew to be right. Compare 1 John 3: 1-10.

[Robert]

By the way, this is also according to the view of Jack Sequeira. See pp. 52, 53 of The Cross of Christ, where he says, "Remember in Romans 7: 14-25, Paul is not discussing the Christian controlled by the Holy Spirit. It is clear he is talking about the believer but he is talking about the believer who is trying to live a holy life in and of himself."

Doesn't matter for the man of Romans 7 is in a saved condition. Read Romans 8:1.

One other thing...he is not trying to live the good life to be saved. A legalist does that.

[Robert]

Quote:

Those who can't understand Paul end up legalists!

The Apostle Peter was a legalist? :R

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God

I am speaking of the gospel & salvation....Paul is very clear

[Robert]

there will be people living before Christ comes who obey God's commandments and keep the faith of Jesus.

If that's the case they will have absolutely no self-seeking in their lives. They will perfectly be reflecting Christ. However, this does not save....We are saved by the doing and dying of Christ.

Until we can say that there's no self-seeking in our lives then we cannot add our names to the commandment keeper list.