Perfect Obedience

[Gerr]

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Notice who is doing the accusing - the father of all half-truths and out & out lies and liars.

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God's people ... those whom He will save are thus described as having :

Filthy Garments

The Bible describe people who have been saved thus:

"To Him who loved us and WASHED us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 1:5,6 NKJ.

"And to her [the Lamb's bride, the Church] it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, CLEAN and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Rev 19:8 NKJ

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Defective Characters

It is written: "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS, and ABOVE REPROACH in His sight -- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard..." Col 1:21-23 NKJ

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Sins of Ingratitude

"Oh give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth forever." Ps 136:3 KJV

"Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise - the fruit of lips that confess his name." Heb 13:15 NIV

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Weakness and folly

"Have you not known?

Have you not heard?

The everlasting God, the LORD,

The Creator of the ends of the earth,

Neither faints nor is weary.

His understanding is unsearchabl.

He gives POWER to the weak,

And to those who have no might He increases STRENGTH;

Even the youths shall faint and be weary,

And the young men shall utterly fall,

But those who wait on the LORD

Shall renew their STRENGTH;

They shall mount up with wings like eagles,

They shall run and not be weary,

They shall walk and not faint." Isa 40:28-31 NKJ

"Fear not, for I am with ou;

Be not dismayed, for I am your God.

I will STRENGTHEN you,

Yes, I will help you,

I will uphold you with My righteous right hand." Isa 41:10 NIV

"I can do everything through Him who gives me strength." Phil 4:13 NIV

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Unlikeness to Christ

It is written: "And we, whyo with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Cor 3:18 NIV

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son..." Rom 8:29 NIV

"Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." 2 Pe 1:4 NIV

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Hey ... that sounds like ME.

Why remain in that condition? "By His divine power, God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know Him, the One who called us to Himself by means of His marvelous glory and excellence." 2 Pe 1:3 NLT

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy, nothing will harm you." Lk 10:18,19 NIV

Gerry

[Robert]

"whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 Jn 2:3,6 NIV

Okay...I understand Paul fairly well, but John I find confusing. For example, Gerry's quote. It sounds like it is saying that if claim Christ I must walk as He did. Well, I don't...I have no delusions here. Is there a change in my life? Yes, but I am failing to fully live Christ's selfless life.

Ellen White has a similar statement:

"To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, 'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' Those who follow him must share his poverty. 'If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.' So shall ye be my disciples." RH 7-4-12

Again, I am not so selfless that I am in poverty. Hence there is some selfishness in my life. That's why I say John is a bit confusing. So let's read the whole context:

2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this [love] we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

Okay...in verse 2 John makes is sound like we can actually live wholly without sin. Then in verse 3 he mentions "His commandments" also called "His word" in verse 5. Then John goes from the plural (i.e., commandments) and goes to the singular (i.e., a new commandment). To me he is a bit confusing. Is he speaking of the Ten Commandments or just portions of it? I am not sure....

[Robert]

Notice who is doing the accusing - the father of all half-truths and out & out lies and liars.

You missed one small fact: "Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit...."

Notice what Ellen White terms sin:

"Lovers of self...selfishness"

Gerry, one of our major disagreements is if self-love is sin. I say it's sin, you say no. EGW, however, links it to sin.

Rob

[Gerr]

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"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away." CCh 352

God's people ... those whom He will save are thus described as having :

Filthy Garments

Defective Characters

Sins of Ingratitude

Weakness and folly

Unlikeness to Christ

Hey ... that sounds like ME.

You also left out some very important passages to put the above quote in its proper context. Here is the rest of the story:

"Satan urges before God his accusations against them, declaring that by their sins they have forfeited the divine protection and claiming the right to destroy them as transgressors.....

The people of God have in many respects been very faulty. Satan has accurate knowledge of the sins which he has tempted them to commit, and he presents these in the most exaggerated light.....

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves to the control of evil. They have put away their sins, and sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf....

The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are terrible, but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them, but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected; unbelief must be overcome; faith, hope, and patience are to be developed." RH 1/9/1908

There is no choosing to sin deliberately until Jesus comes here. She speaks instead of purification and reflecting the image of Jesus more fully.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Notice who is doing the accusing - the father of all half-truths and out & out lies and liars.

You missed one small fact: "Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit...."

Notice what Ellen White terms sin:

"Lovers of self...selfishness"

Gerry, one of our major disagreements is if self-love is sin. I say it's sin, you say no. EGW, however, links it to sin.

Rob

There is a healthy self-love and a destructive self-love. In your thinking, ALL self-love is sin. We've covered

this before, so let's not go through that again. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor AS, in the same manner as we love ourselves.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Okay...in verse 2 John makes is sound like we can actually live wholly without sin. Then in verse 3 he mentions "His commandments" also called "His word" in verse 5. Then John goes from the plural (i.e., commandments) and goes to the singular (i.e., a new commandment). To me he is a bit confusing. Is he speaking of the Ten Commandments or just portions of it? I am not sure....

Until you make a distinction between present, ongoing, deliberate, intentional, and willful sin from unpremeditated sin, you will continue to be confused by what the Apostle John is saying. I had the same problem until it finally dawned on me what he was talking about. The Amplified explains it very well.

Gerry

[Robert]

There is a healthy self-love and a destructive self-love. In your thinking, ALL self-love is sin.

[Gerr]

I do not deny that much of self-love is sinful. But if it is possible to love my neighbor with the love that is of divine origin (agape) then I believe that I can love myself with that same sinless agape love. Or is the divine agape love that is directed toward self also sinful?

I am curious why you set EGW word as LAW when it suits your theology, yeah, even set her word above the Scripture on the subject of self-love, but when her word contradicts your theology, suddenly, she is no more a prophet than just an ordinary person!

The commandment says: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

It does NOT say, love your neighbor MORE than yourself, or LESS than yourself!

Who is worshiping EGW now?

Gerry

[Woody]

OK ... You ol' pucker face ugly mug. As long as you want to change the subject ... I will. What sexual topic shall we talk about today to fulfill your sick needs pardner?

God Bless you ya Ol' Buck-toothed heathen. LOL

Regards, Redwood

[Woody]

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I am curious why you set EGW word as LAW when it suits your theology, yeah, even set her word above the Scripture on the subject of self-love, but when her word contradicts your theology, suddenly, she is no more a prophet than just an ordinary person!

Because Gerry ... we are not to accept what Ellen White says because Ellen White says it ... we are to check it with scripture and only accept that which agrees with scripture. We are not to be blindly accepting her.

Her purpose is to point us to scripture. We are not to use her as the authority on all subjects. We are to study the Bible. The less we use her the better. This was her instructions to us. But we have sadly abused her and her writings.

I would say that Robert is much more on track with her use than you from what I've seen.

And it is interesting that you seem so irritated when someone doesn't have the same all or nothing attitude as you do.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: olger

Paul is describing life without the Holy Spirit in chapter 7.

No, you've got it wrong! Paul is describing a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but instead is trying to rely on his will power to overcome his nature...

There's no evidence in Romans 7 that he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that point in his experience. I see evidence that the Holy Spirit is working on his heart and is convicting him of sin, but that is not the same as being in-dwelt by the Spirit.

Having a desire for righteousness and for obedience is a good thing, but in order for it to bear fruit, one must go beyond the mere desire for these things. Many people will be lost who thought God's law was good or who wanted to do right. However, the Bible doesn't say, "Blessed are they who want to obey the commandments," or, "Blessed are they who want to wash their robes."

[olger]

So noted.

There is a quote from EGW "Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians." And...

"A pure and noble life, a life of victory over appetite and lust, is possible to everyone who will unite his weak, wavering human will to the omnipotent, unwavering will of God."

Og

[Woody]

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"A pure and noble life, a life of victory over appetite and lust, is possible to everyone who will unite his weak, wavering human will to the omnipotent, unwavering will of God."

It is a given that God is unlimited in power and that power is available to all. Not sure what the issue is. I know of no one who would disagree.

But no one including Ellen White was willing to allow the power of God in their life to have a life of victory over appetite and lust. Ellen White's entire life demonstrated a lack of victory over such areas as appetite.

Praise the Lord. When we SEE His face at the Second Coming ... then we will be changed. We will then allow full measure of His power to change us.

Ellen gives an answer for those who struggle with gossip ....

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"The only remedy for vice is the grace and power of Christ."

I will be praying that this will be your experience in the future Olger.

[John317]

So noted.

There is a quote from EGW "Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians." And...

"A pure and noble life, a life of victory over appetite and lust, is possible to everyone who will unite his weak, wavering human will to the omnipotent, unwavering will of God." Og

Those are great! Thanks very much. I remember those but didn't know where to find them. Of course the Bible teaches the same thing. I'm sure that Judas at times had a desire for goodness and holiness, but he never totally surrendered his will to God. The Spirit worked on his heart and mind to persuade him to accept God's will, but Judas rejected the Spirit and so instead of being in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit, he became possessed and controlled by Satan.

[John317]

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"A pure and noble life, a life of victory over appetite and lust, is possible to everyone who will unite his weak, wavering human will to the omnipotent, unwavering will of God."

It is a given that God is unlimited in power and that power is available to all. Not sure what the issue is. I know of no one who would disagree.

But no one including Ellen White was willing to allow the power of God in their life to have a life of victory over appetite and lust. Ellen White's entire life demonstrated a lack of victory over such areas as appetite.

Ellen G. White's entire life was a demonstration of a lack of victory over appetite and lust?

That's an unfair and inaccurate statement. You write as if you believe that Ellen White was willfully and deliberately choosing wrong her whole life.

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Praise the Lord. When we SEE His face at the Second Coming ... then we will be changed. We will then allow full measure of His power to change us.

If we don't get in the habit of allowing Jesus to change us now, we won't allow the full measure of His power to change us when He comes. Now is the time to practice allowing Him to change us, and not wait for Him to change us at His coming. He will change our bodies from being mortal to immortal, but Ellen White says clearly that there will be no change in our characters when He comes. We come up out of the grave with our same characters and with our same thoughts as we had when we went into grave. And if we are alive at the time of his coming, both the Bible and Ellen White clearly teach that our characters will have been changed BEFORE He comes, not afterwards.

[Woody]

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Ellen White says clearly that there will be no change in our characters when He comes. We come up out of the grave with our same characters and with our same thoughts as we had when we went into grave.

While it is true that when we arise from the grave we will have the same character as when we died ... but when we See His Face ... we will be changed. God will not allow the characters that we have now into heaven. If He did that ... sin would return. But NO. He can't even look at our character. He has to look at the Character of the one who takes our place ....

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"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

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"Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." SC 62

We will NOT get to heaven with the characters that we develop here on earth. For we must be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... at the second coming.

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1 John 3:2 " Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

[Woody]

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Ellen G. White's entire life was a demonstration of a lack of victory over appetite and lust?

That's an unfair and inaccurate statement

Ellen was just like all of us. She was not perfect. And neither does she need to be. She is still our prophet . I don't know of many perfect prophets.

But she admitted that she lacked the victory over the appetite of meat and butter and other issues. She did not hide this but readily admitted it. So this is not a shocking statement. She had these issues throughout her entire life.

With her and with us ... what is important is our relationship with Christ. And in that area ... she did not disappoint.

[John317]

I think we're in essential agreement, Redwood. Certainly we're not saved by character development. That's not the idea at all.

Take a second look at the phrase, "...we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Those who are ready for Him to come will be like Him. If they aren't, they won't see him. The lost won't be able to look on His face. They're destroyed by the brightness of His presence. The saved flourish in his brightness while the unsaved perish. What makes the difference? Is it an arbitrary decision on God's part? I would suggest that the difference lies in the "sealing" that the saved receive before the plagues fall. But why are some sealed and other aren't?

[Woody]

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But why are some sealed and other aren't?

See above before you attempt to answer that.

[Robert]

is the divine agape love that is directed toward self also sinful?

[Robert]

There's no evidence in Romans 7 that he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that point in his experience.

That's why we are not to judge by the outward appearance. God looks at the heart...the mind. When He looks at the man of Romans 7 He sees a man whose heart is right with God, but has not learned to walk in the Spirit. Hence, even though he is failing, He is accepted "in Christ"!

Ellen White:

"The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, 'Ye are complete in Him.' Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God." [FW 107]

[Robert]

The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are terrible, but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them, but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected; unbelief must be overcome; faith, hope, and patience are to be developed." RH 1/9/1908

Please note she does not say, "Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected so that they can go to heaven."

In order to perfectly reflect Christ the last generation must be totally separated from all earthly attachments. Why? Because the principle that this world is built on is "self-seeking".

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[LifeHiscost]

Please note she does not say, "Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected so that they can go to heaven."

....the principle that this world is built on is "self-seeking".

As I understand your obsession, Robert, you are concerned that anyone who does something to gain for themselves is not only a legalist, but also sinful for doing so. It is also my understanding that Jesus is our example as well as our guide through the Holy Spirit.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;...." John 16:13 NASB

"Then they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You say and teach rightly, and You do not show personal favoritism, but teach the way of God in truth:"

Luke 20:21 NKJV

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2 KJV

It appears from this Scripture, Jesus, for joy, did some works that He despised. Do you then believe Jesus to be sinful? Or at the very least, in this case, Jesus is not to be followed as the Way?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way..." John 14:6 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

Do you then believe Jesus to be sinful?

Unlike Jesus, you have lived a life of self-seeking. So no, Jesus is not one bit selfish...I can't say that about you. You are not free of the love of self. This same is true of everyone on this forum.

[olger]

"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

oG