Perfect Obedience

[Gerr]

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"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. " AA 560

IOWs ... We will sin until the day we die. Seems like someone else I know of said that .

Is that what she is saying? No victory? Is she saying that one will continue a lifetime of choosing sin? A lifetime of denying God? A lifetime of willfully practicing sin?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The second table of the law is summed up thus: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Not love more, not less.

Gerry

Who is Jesus addressing in the command, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"? Sinners right? When did you start loving yourself - before or after conversion? Right, before. In fact the Bible tells us that all of us are "sinful at birth" [self-centered].

If what Jesus said "sums" up the law & the prophets, how can it not be duty that applies to sinners and saints alike?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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So when Jesus tells us, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" He isn't commanding us to do what we already do - i.e., love ourselves. No, He is commanding us to redirect that self-love from ourselves and instead redirect it towards our neighbors. In other words we are to love our neighbors as we naturally, sinfully and selfishly love ourselves. Ellen White understood this, why can't you?

When you strip yourself of everything you have and give them to your neighbors, then I will know that you REALLY BELIEVE what you are preaching. Until then, it is nothing but hot air. Heaven is not something by and by, heaven begins here and now!

Gerry

[John317]

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"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. " AA 560

IOWs ... We will sin until the day we die. Seems like someone else I know of said that .

Is that what she is saying? No victory? Is she saying that one will continue a lifetime of choosing sin? A lifetime of denying God? A lifetime of willfully practicing sin?

Gerry

He's apparently convinced himself, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that everyone practices willful sin (although this is a flat contradiction of 1 John 3: 6,8,9; 5: 18.) But at the same time he admits that there is "no excuse for sin."

I have to believe in this case that someone is looking for a reason that they can have both their sin and heaven too. It certainly looks that way.

[olger]

It sounds like unconditional love is being confused with unconditional salvation.

This is the house that Calvin built, and it has a faulty foundation.

oG

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

praise God ... he doesn't have a limit on the number of times that we can come to Him and say we are sorry. And then he again accounts us as Righteous.

I have a problem with that last sentence. When we fall into sin (not to count that we are never measuring up) Christ still counts us righteous in Himself. Otherwise you have what Morris Venden called yo-yo salvation...i.e, you are saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved.

Actually the Bible teaches we are once saved always saved as long as our faith in Christ remains. But if one persistently and ulimately rejects his need of Christ that person is once lost forever lost. There's no coming back once you've completely hardened your heart. See Hebrews 6:4-6

4 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

You can see this better if I just quote verse 4 and 6:

"It is impossible for those who have once...shared in the Holy Spirit [experienced the new birth]...if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance."

Robert .... Thank you for correcting me. What I said did lead to the conclusions that you have outlined. I don't in any way want to contribute to the idea of the "yo-yo" religion.

I agree with all you have said. So, thanks for pointing that out.

I stand corrected.

[Woody]

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"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. " AA 560

IOWs ... We will sin until the day we die. Seems like someone else I know of said that .

Is that what she is saying? No victory? Is she saying that one will continue a lifetime of choosing sin? A lifetime of denying God? A lifetime of willfully practicing sin?

Gerry

Hey Gerry .... Now you're getting warm. Welcome to the fold of Grace.

[Woody]

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So when Jesus tells us, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" He isn't commanding us to do what we already do - i.e., love ourselves. No, He is commanding us to redirect that self-love from ourselves and instead redirect it towards our neighbors. In other words we are to love our neighbors as we naturally, sinfully and selfishly love ourselves. Ellen White understood this, why can't you?

When you strip yourself of everything you have and give them to your neighbors, then I will know that you REALLY BELIEVE what you are preaching. Until then, it is nothing but hot air. Heaven is not something by and by, heaven begins here and now!

Gerry

If what I am seeing now here on this earth .... is HEAVEN .... I change my mind. I don't care to go to heaven.

[Woody]

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I have to believe in this case that someone is looking for a reason that they can have both their sin and heaven too. It certainly looks that way.

Finally ... you are getting it. The bottom line is that Jesus came and died for my sins. I don't come to a place where I stop all of my sins and you can call them willful ... for all sins ARE willful.

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"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

ALL sin needs forgiveness. For IF we know him as is our privilege to know Him ... we will not sin.

When I sin ... he forgives. If only you knew of this good news. We don't have to come to a place where we don't need the forgiveness of Jesus. We will always need Him until the day we die.

[Woody]

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It sounds like unconditional love is being confused with unconditional salvation.

Hey ... who turned on the light bulb around here. Finally.

Yes, we do have unconditional salvation. When we ask for forgivenss ... we are forgiven. No conditions are attached. He doesn't say to us ... "No you have to first live a life without sin". No There are no conditions attached. He came for sinners. His purpose is to forgive those who ask.

Praise God for this Good News.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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If what I am seeing now here on this earth .... is HEAVEN .... I change my mind. I don't care to go to heaven.

(Jumping in without having read anything on this post)

What we see physically, is not what heaven will be like, that I'm sure you know.

What we currently see in the remnant church of God is what has been foretold by Jesus. the 10 sleeping virgins parable makes that clear.

So, if we take a picture of that time period (which I believe is today) and say, "we can never be obedient look at us" then we are setting ourselves up to be passed over when the time of refreshing comes.

It is a dangerous theory to believe that what we are determines what we will always be here on earth. When we get serious and awake things will change. When we become heart broken for the condition of those in the church and those who don't know the truth, I think we will see things change.

A love of souls (people) more than a love for self (brought about by the love of Christ in our hearts) will be the accurate thermometer to look at to determine what heaven, in part will look like.

Norman

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God is love....There is no self...no self-seeking in God's love. Why are you not living that life?

Non sequitor!!!

Gerry

You will have that love which seeks not her own' date=' but another's wealth.” [DA 439']

[Robert]

I claim the power of Jesus through His Spirit to enable me to obey, and that is self-righteousness?

Gerry

Who told you that you were measuring up?

Rob

[Robert]

"Depart from me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness." Mt. 7:23 NKJ

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These works are based in self. Hence works of iniquity are nothing more then the flesh trying to look and act good. These works will condemn the legalists in the judgment.

[Woody]

This topic of willful sin is interesting. My dictionary says the number one meaning is Deliberate and voluntary .

I will point out that when we sin ... it is both deliberate and voluntary. As I have said before ... when we sin - No one is usually holding a gun to our heads and forcing us to sin.

NO. Instead ... there is NO excuse for sin. WHY? Because it is our privilege to know God. And if we know God ... WE WILL NOT SIN. We sin ... because we make a deliberate and voluntary choice to not know God as is our privilege to know Him.

When we sin .... it is voluntary on our part. It IS WILLFUL. It is our will to do as we please. IF it was our will to know God ,... then we would not sin. WE make the choice.

In the end ... WE are responsbile for the sins we commit. I reject this excuse making that somehow we are not responsible for them. We ARE. And we MUST ask for forgiveness. That is our responsibility.

If we fail to do that ... WE ARE LOST.

[John317]

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I have to believe in this case that someone is looking for a reason that they can have both their sin and heaven too. It certainly looks that way.

Finally ... you are getting it.

It's a dangerous belief to think we can keep holding onto sin and have heaven too. That false teaching is at the bottom of all the false religions and false worship.

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The bottom line is that Jesus came and died for my sins.

Yes, he did. But he died to separate you from your sins and to destroy sin. He condemned sin in the flesh and made it possible for us to obey Him. That is what Romans 8 and 1 John 3: 1-10 is all about.

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I don't come to a place where I stop all of my sins and you can call them willful ... for all sins ARE willful.

Willful sins are premeditated and planned, Redwood. It doesn't make any sense to say that all sins are premeditated and planned, does it? But that's what you are saying.

Some sins are committed through ignorance. Others are committed through thoughtlessness. Still others are committed through weakness. (The Bible itself makes a difference between unintentional sins and those that are intended. See Lev. 4: 22, 23, 27-30. This alone is sufficient proof that not all sins are willful.)

But then there are the sins that are planned and premeditated, due to a stubborn will that chooses to sin. This is what it means to commit a willful sin.

Ellen White distinguishes: "Errors committed through ignorance, thoughtlessness, or weakness are exaggerated into willful, premeditated sin" (5 T 605).

"Let none deceive themselves with the belief that they can become holy while willfully violating one of God's requirements. The commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit and separates the soul from God" (GC 472).

"Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God. He may have committed his evil deeds in the light of day or in the darkness of night; but they were open and manifest before Him with whom we have to do. Angels of God witnessed each sin and registered it in the unerring records. Sin may be concealed, denied, covered up from father, mother, wife, children, and associates; no one but the guilty actors may cherish the least suspicion of the wrong; but it is laid bare before the intelligences of heaven. The darkness of the darkest night, the secrecy of all deceptive arts, is not sufficient to veil one thought from the knowledge of the Eternal. God has an exact record of every unjust account and every unfair dealing. He is not deceived by appearances of piety. He makes no mistakes in His estimation of character. Men may be deceived by those who are corrupt in heart, but God pierces all disguises and reads the inner life" (GC 486).

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"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

I agree that there is no excuse for sin, and that is why I believe that all sin needs to be confessed and forsaken, not deliberately and willfully committed and practiced. If you believe that there is no excuse for sin, why would you choose to commit it willfully or stubbornly for the rest of your life, as you say you will? That doesn't make any sense to me.

After all, we're not talking about sins that we are not even aware of or that we fall into due to thoughtlessness or weakness, but rather those we plan and commit deliberately and intentionally despite the fact that we have freedom to choose otherwise.

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ALL sin needs forgiveness.

Of course all sin needs forgiveness. All sin also needs to be sincerely confessed, repented of and forsaken.

The fact, however, that all sin need forgiveness does not go to the point of showing that all sin is willful or due to a stubborn will.

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For IF we know him as is our privilege to know Him ... we will not sin

John says over and over again that if we know Him, we will not deliberately and willfully practice sin. This is true.

Yet you say that you do commit willful sin and that you will keep on doing it until you die or until Jesus comes back. Now you are saying "if we know him, we will not sin." That is exactly what the apostle John writes in 1 John 2: 4-6; 3:1-10; 5: 18.

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When I sin ... he forgives.

He doesn't forgive if you don't sincerely confess your sins. That seems to be missing in your comments and perhaps in your experience as well. There is no pardon for unconfessed sins (9 T 266). God pardons sins confessed with a contrite heart, not with a heart planning on committing the sin again (7 BC 970)

[John317]

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He doesn't forgive if you don't sincerely confess your sins. That seems to be missing in your comments and perhaps in your experience as well.

Don't judge lest ye be judged ...

I'm only going by what you've written here, or at least by what I read of your posts. The Bible reference to "judging" has to do with judging people's hearts. It is judging people's intentions.

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Perhaps you should read my posts rather than willfully attack.

And Redwood is quoted as saying what ??? ....

I was writing my post when you posted yours, so I hadn't had time to read your post in which you made the above statement. In the statement I was responding to, you made no reference to confession or asking for forgiveness. I'm glad to see that you do believe it is necessary.

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Your posts John317 are just irresponsible debating tactics of attack and misrepresent. It is hardly worth talking with you. How can you make such outrageous statements and claim to be willfully perfect. Now that I have pointed out your sin of doing this ... will you willfully stop this practice?

Being responsible seems to be willfully absent in your posts.

I have not said anything about your intentions. Neither have I ever claimed to be "perfect", willfully or otherwise.

[Woody]

Your misrepresentation of my views is irresponsible. This ongoing problem will be presented to Admin. You have been asked before to stop this and I guess you have to be asked again.

Your insistance to use debate tactics rather than honest discussion of the issues just makes it not worth talking to you.

You like to play to your definitions and use your definitions to attack my words. This misrepresentation needs to stop. Let's have honest discussions rather than irresponsible debate.

[Woody]

Please keep your personal attacks on me off this thread.

[John317]

Your misrepresentation of my views is irresponsible. This ongoing problem will be presented to Admin. You have been asked before to stop this and I guess you have to be asked again.

Your insistance to use debate tactics rather than honest discussion of the issues just makes it not worth talking to you.

You like to play to your definitions and use your definitions to attack my words. This misrepresentation needs to stop. Let's have honest discussions rather than irresponsible debate.

Show examples of where I have done what you claim.

[John317]

Please keep your personal attacks on me off this thread.

I have made no personal attack on you on this thread or on any other thread, Redwood. If you believe I have, however, please point it out. You might copy and paste things that you feel have been personal attacks.

[olger]

It's embarrassing to see a grown man become a tattletale so repeatedly. Olger shakes his head and wonders how you will fare in the time of trouble.

Back to the topic. John (317) raises a legitimate question here. "Redwood" you are assuming theological points that you haven't established scripturally. How about establishing those points objectively? Your arguments are all over the board.

We have this hope,

Gerald

[olger]

Olger reads proverbs 19:11 and chooses to overlook an offense.

Christian regards,

olger

[Woody]

Olger reads proverbs 19:11 and chooses to overlook an offense.

Oh my ... lets shed a tear for the good man. I guess we can over look his interest.

[olger]

Olger notes that tattletale mode is similar to annoyance mode and looks forward to summer.

Lord bless,

Gerry C. Wagoner