Perfect Obedience

[Gerr]

Quote:

The Holy Spirit does provide the power to believers so that we may overcome every temptation.

Thank you John ... this is exactly my point. I am glad that we are in agreement.

So then, if you really believe this, why do you then claim that a believer will continue to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin?"

If you were in the middle of deep pool and don't know how to swim, how can you be saved if someone throws you a lifeline and you don't take hold of it?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Robert, I am still waiting for your answer to my questions below.

Originally Posted By: Robert

EGW (this fits you):

So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation.

[/quote'] Non sequitor again!!!

So I will repeat the question. By saying, "I am not under law," do you mean that you are free to be selfish? Free to break any or all of the 10c? And still claim salvation and being "in Christ?"

If you are, then here is another question: Lucifer & his followers were thrown out of heaven because of the sin of selfishness, but Robert and Redwood and whoever else that believe in your theology, can be selfish, keep on deliberately sinning but yet have a claim on heaven? How then can God boot Lucifer out and let you or me in if that's what believers keep on doing?

The last time I checked, God plays no favoritism!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Robert and Redwood and whoever else that believe in your theology, can be selfish, keep on deliberately sinning but yet have a claim on heaven?

R + R have the same claim that YOU have for heaven. It is based on the doing and dying of our Saviour ... not the works that are done in our personal lives.

[Robert]

Robert, I am still waiting for your answer to my questions below.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The man of Romans 7 isn't willfully sinning - yet he is failing - however there's no condemnation. I rest my case!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Robert and Redwood and whoever else that believe in your theology, can be selfish, keep on deliberately sinning but yet have a claim on heaven?

R + R have the same claim that YOU have for heaven. It is based on the doing and dying of our Saviour ... not the works that are done in our personal lives.

And HOW is this claim manifested?

In Jesus' parable, the wise man believes, and acts on that belief by building on the Rock. The foolish man makes the same claim, and builds on sand.

Or like the parable of the 2 sons. The father asked his sons to go and work in his vineyard. The first said, "I will not." But later he repented and went. The other said, "I will go," but did not. Which of the 2 did their father's will?

How about the 10 virgins? They all claimed to have lamps. All claimed to be waiting for the bridegroom. They did not all go into the wedding. Five were left behind. Why?

Out of the millions that left Egypt, how many failed to enter Canaan. Why? Disobedience!!! Read it for yourself in Heb 4:6.

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble!" Jam 2:19 NKJ. But they were thrown out of heaven anyway!!!

So let me ask you the same question that I am still waiting for Robert to answer:

If Lucifer and his followers were thrown out of heaven because of their willful persistence in "choosing sin, denying God, and willful practicing of sin," how can you and me be admitted into heaven if we are doing the same things they were doing?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Robert, I am still waiting for your answer to my questions below.

The man of Romans 7 isn't willfully sinning - yet he is failing - however there's no condemnation. I rest my case!

You're still evading the above question!!!

So here's another question: Since you claim that not giving up/away one's possessions is a sign of sinful love for self, i.e. selfishness, are you not willfully and deliberately and intentionally committing the sin of selfishness by hanging onto your possessions? Will God admit into heaven one who is deliberately and willfully hanging onto the sin of selfishness?

Gerry

[Robert]

Since you claim that not giving up/away one's possessions is a sign of sinful love for self, i.e. selfishness, are you not willfully and deliberately and intentionally committing the sin of selfishness by hanging onto your possessions?

6 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, ”‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Gerry...you are a rich guy...if you want to get to heaven by your commandment keeping...if you want to be perfect, you must be totally unselfish.

Rob

[Robert]

You're still evading the above question!!!

No...the man of Romans 7 is being selfish, yet he wants to live the good life according to the inward man. He delights in God's law, but when the rubber meets the road he experiences failure. Is there any condemnation? No! Why not? The believer is no longer under law and therefore it can't touch him unless he gives up Christ.

[Robert]

Lucifer and his angels got booted out of heaven for persisting in sin, but believers who persist in sin remain saved?

God didn't boot Lucifer out of heaven because he sinned. God booted Lucifer out of heaven because he invented the principle of self-love:

Satan’s rebellion against God in heaven was, in reality, a rebellion against God’s agape love, which was the principle underlying the law [see Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:13, 14]. Lucifer found the idea that love (agape) “is not self-seeking” [1 Conthians 13:5] too restrictive. He rebelled and introduced the principle of self-love or eros [see Ezekiel 28:15; Isaiah 14:12-14]. Ever since his fall, Satan has hated the concept of self-sacrificing love. When God restored this principle to the human race through the preaching of the gospel, Satan naturally fought against it with all his might [see Revelation 12:10-12]. The very first thing he attacked in the Christian church was not the Sabbath or the state of the dead. His onslaughts against these truths came later, but he focused first on the concept of God’s agape love.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert and Redwood and whoever else that believe in your theology, can be selfish, keep on deliberately sinning but yet have a claim on heaven?

R + R have the same claim that YOU have for heaven. It is based on the doing and dying of our Saviour ... not the works that are done in our personal lives.

What part, in your view, do works of faith have in our ultimate salvation or in being ready for Christ to return?

Keep in mind that John 3: 16 says we must believe in Christ in order not to perish eternally. But what does it mean to believe in Christ? Does it mean to merely say we believe? No. Belief in the Biblical sense means to put one's total reliance and trust in Him as both Savior and Lord of our lives. "Lord" means master and owner. There cannot be anything about us-- either our minds or our bodies-- which is not completely OWNED BY and UNDER THE CONTROL of Christ.

Please study the following very important statement:

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. (DA 324)

Check out a book about how to have real and full freedom in Jesus: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=o...MgwN9NbLztMtua8

[olger]

Excellent quote !

[Robert]

"When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart."

[Robert]

I just came across this:

BC- Mar

TI- Maranatha

CN- 196

CT- The Purification of the Church

PR- 02

PG- 204

“the gold be separated from the dross, and it will be made apparent who are the godly, who are the loyal and true, and who are the disloyal, the dross and the tinsel. What

clouds of chaff will then be borne away by the fan of God! Where now our eyes can discover only rich floors of wheat, will be chaff blown away with the fan of God. Every one who is not centered in Christ will fail to stand the test and ordeal of that day. While those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness will stand firm to truth and duty, those who have trusted in their own righteousness will be ranged under the black banner of the prince of darkness. Then it will be seen whether the choice is for Christ or Belial.”

I rest my case! Thank you Ellen! Those who are not centered in the doing and dying of Christ and therefore do not have the assurance of salvation will join the enemy.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The man of Romans 7 has a "new heart" because he "delights in the law of God according to the inward man" - but because he has failed to surrender his "new heart" to the power of the Holy Spirit his battle with "the flesh" comes at a loss and he fails to live the Christian life. But the point again is that there's no condemnation.

So the Pharisee (the "separated ones", very particular in keeping the law, in whose mind the law was deeply etched, a vehement defender of the law) who was praying in the temple thanking & praising God that he was not like other people, had a new heart?

Quote:

We must come to grips with this....

Many of us have, and have concluded that he could not possible be born again and have a new heart because he is still a SLAVE to sin; he is still obeying ANOTHER master.

Jesus Himself prclaimed: "When the Son sets you FREE, you will be FREE INDEED!"

Quote:

How does he take possession? Again, through the love of self.

....

Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love , self-indulgence, and temptation to sin.

Gerry, did you notice what EGW states? Look at the big red letters....

And what would you tell a child who has been repeatedly called, "an accident," "no good," "dumb," "stupid," more self-loathing?

Paul, whom you claim to understand, said, "So husbands ought to love their own wives as their OWN BODIES; he who loves his wife loves himself." Eph 5:28 NKJ

What? Heaven forbid!!! If I love myself, I would be charged with loving MYSELF!!! So, to escape your charge that ALL love for self is sinful, now I must stop showing ANY love for my wife, because to do so would be loving MYSELF!!!

What convoluted reasoning, huh!

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If I "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then He is indeed speaking to me.

Gerry [/quote']

You got that right. We all do that. Praise God ... He died for our sins. Do you think that when Peter denied Jesus ... that it was an unpardonable sin? OR did he not choose to sin? Did someone "force" him to deny His Lord?

But when you say "we all do that," i.e., willfully practice sin, you are directly contradicting 1 John 3: 9 which says, "No one born of God practices sin" (see NASB and Amplified). There are many verses that say the same thing.

Your statement, that "we all practice sin," can only be true if nobody is born of God.

I think the key is to understand what is meant by "practice sin." It seems to me that you are using the term in an incorrect way. If we go by the dictionary definition of "practicing," we see that it means the habitual, deliberate, willful, intentional committing and planning to do sin, or violate God's will and law.

It's hard for me to believe that you mean that everyone does this, especially in light of many verses in God's word which say that people who are born of God do not do this. John is saying that when people habitually and deliberately commit intentional sin, it is evidence that they are not born of God.

How do you understand this verse and others like it? I haven't seen where you explain what you believe this verse to be saying. You may have explained it before, but I haven't seen it. Could you give a brief explanation of what you believe the apostle John is saying in 1 John 3: 9?

Check out the dictionary meaning of "practice:"

• the customary, habitual, or expected procedure of something : current nursing practice | modern child-rearing practices.

• the carrying out or exercise of a profession, esp. that of a doctor or lawyer : he abandoned medical practice for the Church.

• the business or premises of a doctor or lawyer : Dr. Weiss has a practice in Essex.

• an established method of legal procedure.

2 repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire or maintain proficiency in it : it must have taken a lot of practice to become so fluent.

• a period of time spent doing this : daily choir practices.

verb [ trans. ] ( Brit. practise)

1 perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to improve or maintain one's proficiency : I need to practice my French | [ intrans. ] they were practicing for the Olympics.

2 carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly : we still practice some of these rituals today.

• actively pursue or be engaged in (a particular profession or occupation) : he began to practice law | [ intrans. ] he practiced as an attorney | [as adj. ] ( practicing) a practicing architect.

• observe the teaching and rules of (a particular religion) : non-Muslims were free to practice their religion | [as adj. ] ( practicing) a practicing Roman Catholic.

• [ intrans. ] archaic scheme or plot for an evil purpose : what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive.

PHRASES

in practice in reality (used to refer to what actually happens as opposed to what is meant or believed to happen) : in theory this method is ideal—in practice it is unrealistic. • currently proficient in a particular activity or skill as a result of repeated exercise or performance of it.

out of practice not currently proficient in a particular activity or skill due to not having exercised or performed it for some time : he was out of practice at interrogation.

practice makes perfect used to convey that regular exercise of an activity or skill is the way to become proficient in it, esp. when encouraging someone to persist in it.

practice what one preaches do what one advises others to do.

[Robert]

And what would you tell a child who has been repeatedly called, "an accident," "no good," "dumb," "stupid," more self-loathing?

[John317]

Do you like yourself? Is it OK, in your understanding, for a person to like themselves?

There seems to me to be something wrong with the idea that it is sinful for us to have any kind or any degree of love for ourselves, at the same time that the God of the universe says He loves us and He commands everyone else to love us. Yet it is wrong for me to love me at all.

You seem to be saying that there is no right kind of love of self. Is this true?

[Robert]

Do you like yourself? Is it OK, in your understanding, for a person to like themselves?

[Robert]

Read this by Jack:

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He [Jesus] could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.”

Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.”

Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death.

Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself [love Himself] and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. When you realize that is how much God loves you, can you be the same again?

....Look at the early Christian Church. They did not hold on to anything, land or houses. They gave it all to the body of Christ, the church. That is what will happen in this church when we see Christ crucified, as the early Christians saw it; and then we won’t need any more promotional programs. I get tired of promotional programs. I am sorry that we have to do it because if we don’t promote nothing gets done. It is terrible that we have to keep on this egocentric approach for raising funds. Why can’t the love of God constrain us? In 2 Cor. 5:14, Paul says what the cross did to him and to the Christian church and what it should do to us. When we reach this condition; when the church manifests the love of Christ because of what the cross means to them, then our 20th Century world will be turned upside down, too.

[John317]

Can you answer the simple, straightforward question, whether you like yourself?

What you are saying here sounds very similar to some of the things you hear when you study Buddhism and Hinduism. They also teach that there is no legitimate place for the "self." "Self" in those religions is a negative. The ideal, and the ultimate goal, in those religions is to lose all of the "self".

Yet the Bible clearly does not teach this. Adam was created as a "self" or individual personality, with a separate will. God created him and us with an individual sense of "self," a center of consciousness, or self-conscious. For instance, Adam was immediately aware of the existence of himself apart from the rest of creation and of the other created beings. He went searching for someone else like himself. He was not searching for himself or for his "self." And God provided that someone other than his "self" in the person of Eve. She was not him. He was not her. They were two separate individuals. And when we are raised from the dead we will once again and forever be individuals. We will love God and love each other, but the self will not be lost or submerged. We will find our greatest fulfillment and happiness in loving our Creator and in loving others. But we will be aware of ourselves as individuals.

[Robert]

John, let's get back to this "willful sin" subject again. You said something that caught my eyes and I wanted to clarify what you stated. It was something like this:

We all sin willfully, but to continue such a lifestyle is an impossibility if you have the Spirit in you. That's what you were saying I think?

Okay...let me use an example. Now folks this has a PG-13 rating...so if you are going to be offended stop and do not read any further.

2 or 3 years ago I did something I usually do not do. My wife and I had legally separated and we were about 6 months from a divorce. I was lonely at that time and bit hurt and confused. Anyway, I met this single woman at work and we went when out to eat and things like that. Well, it didn't stop there....I did what I was against...sex before marriage...even worse I was still married, albeit legally separated.

Well, I never felt comfortable with the situation. It felt like I was hugging on my own sister....It didn't feel right. I justified it because the deed had already taken place and I had deceived myself into thinking God looked at us a though we were married. You know...the two shall become one...

About a month into this relationship I was talking to one of my Christian buddies on the phone. I told him what I was doing.... I guess I justified it to him. Do you know what he said to me? "Rob, your flesh has deceived you. Stop this relationship." Well, a light bulb came on....

Anyway, I but the brakes on, nicely of course. I told my female friend that sex was for married folks...of course she didn't buy into my new revelation, but it ended without too much emotional damage. I didn't get close to her...the whole thing was odd and uncomfortable for me.

I regret what I did....That's not how you start a relationship as a Christian. The thing is I didn't feel comfortable. I know why now....It was the Spirit in me....He worked through my friend - the one that told me my problem straight up - without being self-righteous.

Now if I didn't have the Spirit in me I guess I would still be over at her place doing things that married folks should be doing. But since I have been born again...I can't practice and condone willful sin as a lifestyle. In this case adultery...or fornication - sexual immorality.

Is this what you are saying? If it is I agree....

Rob

[John317]

Hey, that's exactly what I'm saying.

That's a good point you brought out, too, about how it was your friend who (I believe) the Lord used to bring conviction to your heart about what you had been doing. (Of course, it takes a real friend to say things like that, and I'm sure you would not have allowed anyone but a friend to tell you that.)

So what I'm saying is that if the Spirit is abiding in us and if we have God's seed or nature in us, we will not keep doing those things we are convicted are wrong. We may do them for a while, but we can't keep doing them because the Holy Spirit keeps "pricking" our conscience like He did with you.

That's a very good illustration, and I wasn't a bit offended. I've had similar experiences, too, as I'm sure many on CA have. Thanks.

[Robert]

He worked through my friend - the one that told me my problem straight up - without being self-righteous.

That's why I like the story of the rascal, King David. He had a friend too sent by God:

The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. 4 “Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”

5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man!" [busted!]

I love how God goes to all sorts of lengths to open our eyes when the flesh as got a hold on us. David was busted....Can you say, "Foot in mouth"?

Rob

[Robert]

Hey, that's exactly what I'm saying.

That's a good point you brought out, too, about how it was your friend who (I believe) the Lord used to bring conviction to your heart about what you had been doing. (Of course, it takes a real friend to say things like that, and I'm sure you would not have allowed anyone but a friend to tell you that.)

So what I'm saying is that if the Spirit is abiding in us and if we have God's seed or nature in us, we will not keep doing those things we are convicted are wrong. We may do them for a while, but we can't keep doing them because the Holy Spirit keeps "pricking" our conscience like He did with you.

That's a very good illustration, and I wasn't a bit offended. I've had similar experiences, too, as I'm sure many on CA have. Thanks.

Wow...we are agreeing....Okay, one more step and if we agree here, man...what can I say. Now this one you might have a problem with...but maybe not.

When I was doing wrong...you know - the sex thing...I was still in a saved condition. I didn't fall from grace because of my willful sin....Or was it willful...more like deceived, but it really doesn't matter it was sin and sin brings more garbage into your life.

Anyway, I still had assurance because my faith was still "in Christ" (yes - a weak faith).....In Him I am 100% righteous. I didn't harden my heart...I didn't commit the unpardonable sin, when revealed I let God have it....In fact when I broke it off I felt relieved. I was glad to move on.

I say this because too many folks think that when we sin - even willful sin - we are lost. Morris Venden called this yo-yo salvation. We are once saved, always saved, as long as our faith remains in Christ. That includes acknowledging known sin. Because if I will not admit sin then I must not be a sinner and only sinners need Christ....

If I were to die today (I still have besetting sins - I still fall short of God's agape love) I have the assurance of salvation. I know that in the judgment Satan will accuse me of all sorts of sins....And he is right (even though I am slowly maturing). But Christ will step up to the plate and say, "Yeah, Rob is a rascal. He has got issues, but I've got some news for you Mr. Lucifer." And Satan will say, "what's that?" And Christ will say, "In Me Rob has a perfect, unblemished humanity. So why don't you go bug someone else?"

Back to this sex thingy....The thing is (stupid me) I could have got some STD....Stupid...just plain, silly stupid. That's the flesh...Our natures wants it all... even if it kills you. Kids doing each other...and there's AIDS. There go I, again, but for the grace of God.

God save us from ourselves!

Rob

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Hey, that's exactly what I'm saying.

That's a good point you brought out, too, about how it was your friend who (I believe) the Lord used to bring conviction to your heart about what you had been doing. (Of course, it takes a real friend to say things like that, and I'm sure you would not have allowed anyone but a friend to tell you that.)

So what I'm saying is that if the Spirit is abiding in us and if we have God's seed or nature in us, we will not keep doing those things we are convicted are wrong. We may do them for a while, but we can't keep doing them because the Holy Spirit keeps "pricking" our conscience like He did with you.

That's a very good illustration, and I wasn't a bit offended. I've had similar experiences, too, as I'm sure many on CA have. Thanks.

Wow...we are agreeing....

We agree on much more than we disagree on. That's what I've been trying to say for a long time. Our main disagreements are on the nature of sin and on the finer points of righteousness by faith, and you know, it's not essential that everyone see all these point exactly alike. Now I know you may disagree with that. OK, we can disagree again, then, I guess.