Perfect Obedience

[Woody]

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John is saying that when people habitually and deliberately commit intentional sin, it is evidence that they are not born of God.

Yep ...We ALL sin. And we all at times give evidence of this from time to time. We then need to look at the sins that we commit and realize that we need a "better" connection with God. What we don't need to do is to look at the sins and say OH ... I need to stop the sins. The focus should not be on the sins but on the relationship.

It is God who works in us for good. We have to go to the producer of the good works ... our Maker.

[Woody]

Thank you Robert. You have done some excellent work of researching this topic and we are blessed to have you share it with us.

Thank you. We so much need to assimilate this truth.

[John317]

Quote:

John is saying that when people habitually and deliberately commit intentional sin, it is evidence that they are not born of God.

Yep ...We ALL sin. And we all at times give evidence of this from time to time. We then need to look at the sins that we commit and realize that we need a "better" connection with God. What we don't need to do is to look at the sins and say OH ... I need to stop the sins. The focus should not be on the sins but on the relationship.

It is God who works in us for good. We have to go to the producer of the good works ... our Maker.

Yes, but if you take what Robert has said in a previous post, we also have to make a decision about whether we are going to continue a particular sin that the Holy Spirit has made us aware of. For instance, if I become convicted that God doesn't want me to be "sleeping around," I have to decide not to get in my car and go over to so-and-so's house or have so-and-so come over to mine. ETC. And then if I feel a strong desire to go over there, I need to pray that God will take away that desire and replace it with a desire to do the right thing. I know from personal experience that God does this on a regular basis if we ask him to do it. If we practice that, instead of practicing the sin, pretty soon the practicing of the right will be easier and easier. But we have to make practicing righteousness a habit just like before we made it a habit to do wrong. That's what Paul is saying in Romans 6: 19-- "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness and sanctification."

[Woody]

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I say this because too many folks think that when we sin - even willful sin - we are lost. Morris Venden called this yo-yo salvation. We are once saved, always saved, as long as our faith remains in Christ. That includes acknowledging known sin. Because if I will not admit sin then I must not be a sinner and only sinners need Christ....

If I were to die today (I still have besetting sins - I still fall short of God's agape love) I have the assurance of salvation. I know that in the judgment Satan will accuse me of all sorts of sins....And he is right (even though I am slowly maturing). But Christ will step up to the plate and say, "Yeah, Rob is a rascal. He has got issues, but I've got some news for you Mr. Lucifer." And Satan will say, "what's that?" And Christ will say, "In Me Rob has a perfect, unblemished humanity. So why don't you go bug someone else?"

How cool. Thank you so much. I appreciate how you express the Gospel to us. And thanks for your testimony. God is Good.

[Woody]

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Yes, but if you take what Robert has said in a previous post, we also have to make a decision about whether we are going to continue a particular sin that the Holy Spirit has made us aware of. For instance, if I become convicted that God doesn't want me to "sleeping around," I have to decide not to go over to so-and-so's house or have so-and-so come over to mine. ETC. And then if I feel a strong desire to go over there, I need to pray that God will take away that desire and replace it with a desire to do the right thing. If we practice that, instead of practicing the sin, pretty soon the practicing of the right will be easier and easier. But we have to make practicing righteousness a habit just like before we made it a habit to do wrong. That's what Paul is saying in Romans 6: 19-- "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness and sanctification."

I agree that we need to pray that he will take away that desire to sin and replace it with good. But once we do that .... we may still practice the same sin ... in other words ... we may sin despite our best intentions. This does not put us outside of the Grace of God.

Unfortunately we may continue to practice sin because we are sinners. But that is why Christ died for those sins and he allows for us to come to him each time we fall even though we have practiced sin. He has no limit. There is no particular number that He limits us to coming to Him asking forgiveness.

[Woody]

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we also have to make a decision about whether we are going to continue a particular sin that the Holy Spirit has made us aware of.

This is an important issue to look at.

I agree we need to make a decision. Rob made the right decision to stop the sin. Some of us make the wrong decision. But when we make the wrong decision the next time the temptation comes ... we are not outside the Grace of God. We are not a yo-yo. NO ...we repent and try to go and sin no more ... yet once again. But we go forth saved by His Grace.

To quote Robert ...

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There go I, again, but for the grace of God.

[John317]

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Yes, but if you take what Robert has said in a previous post, we also have to make a decision about whether we are going to continue a particular sin that the Holy Spirit has made us aware of. For instance, if I become convicted that God doesn't want me to "sleeping around," I have to decide not to go over to so-and-so's house or have so-and-so come over to mine. ETC. And then if I feel a strong desire to go over there, I need to pray that God will take away that desire and replace it with a desire to do the right thing. If we practice that, instead of practicing the sin, pretty soon the practicing of the right will be easier and easier. But we have to make practicing righteousness a habit just like before we made it a habit to do wrong. That's what Paul is saying in Romans 6: 19-- "For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness and sanctification."

I agree that we need to pray that he will take away that desire to sin and replace it with good. But once we do that .... we may still practice the same sin ... in other words ... we may sin despite our best intentions. This does not put us outside of the Grace of God.

Unfortunately we may continue to practice sin because we are sinners. But that is why Christ died for those sins and he allows for us to come to him each time we fall even though we have practiced sin. He has no limit. There is no particular number that He limits us to coming to Him asking forgiveness.

We're actually close to complete agreement, except I don't understand your use of the word "practice" here. "Practice" signifies not simply the fact that we fall into sin or that we fall short of God's glory, but that we are planning to go on committing the same sin/s. It's like "practicing" the piano or medicine. No one "practices" those things by accident. It takes planning. So with the practice of sin.

Again, this doesn't mean we don't make mistakes or sin; it means we don't "practice" sin. That's what the apostle John is talking about in 1 John 3. He has already said in First John 1 that Christ forgives us if we sin and confess it. So it is not a question of whether Christians do sometimes sin. But 1 John 3 is speaking to a different issue: the deliberate continuation of sin. Every day the Lord will show us some other sin we need to stop or overcome, so it is not as if we can ever say, "I do not sin at all any more. I've arrived. "

[John317]

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we also have to make a decision about whether we are going to continue a particular sin that the Holy Spirit has made us aware of.

This is an important issue to look at.

I agree we need to make a decision. Rob made the right decision to stop the sin. Some of us make the wrong decision. But when we make the wrong decision the next time the temptation comes ... we are not outside the Grace of God. We are not a yo-yo. NO ...we repent and try to go and sin no more ... yet once again. But we go forth saved by His Grace.

To quote Robert ...

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There go I, again, but for the grace of God.

I agree with that. But as Rob also pointed out, if we play with sin, we can expect it to deceive us into thinking that it's OK when it isn't.

[Woody]

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But 1 John 3 is speaking to a different issue: the deliberate continuation of sin.

While we wish or try not to do this ... we do deliberately choose to sin. When we sin ... no one is holding a gun to our heads usually. We know that something is a sin ... but we go ahead and do it.

Let me give you an example ... Robert. If Robert had slipped and done the marriage thingy with this woman again or with another woman even in the future ... this act would take planning. It is sin. But Rob is not a yo-yo. He is not outside of God's Grace. The law does not condemn him. For he has given his life to God. When he practices sin ... he comes back to God and asks for forgiveness. HE is SAVED despite practicing sin.

[Woody]

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I agree with that. But as Rob also pointed out, if we play with sin, we can expect it to deceive us into thinking that it's OK when it isn't.

Ahhhhhh

Now we are getting somewhere. Praise God.

This is the point. He is not outside of God's Grace ... but he is flirting with danger to the place where he very well could remove himself from God's Grace. This is what sin does. It brings you further and further away from God to the point where you no longer want or choose God.

Sin has it's cost ... for everyone.

Bingo

[John317]

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But 1 John 3 is speaking to a different issue: the deliberate continuation of sin.

While we wish or try not to do this ... we do deliberately choose to sin. When we sin ... no one is holding a gun to our heads usually. We know that something is a sin ... but we go ahead and do it.

Let me give you an example ... Robert. If Robert had slipped and done the marriage thingy with this woman again or with another woman even in the future ... this act would take planning. It is sin. But Rob is not a yo-yo. He is not outside of God's Grace. The law does not condemn him. For he has given his life to God. When he practices sin ... he comes back to God and asks for forgiveness. HE is SAVED despite practicing sin.

Is that what the Bible teaches, that a person is saved while they are continuing to practice sin? That is not what I said, and not what the Bible teaches:

1 John 3: 4-10

4Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God's law by transgression or neglect--being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).

5You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [[a]essentially and forever].

6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and [c]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

7[d]Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8[but] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [e]habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

10By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow [f]believer in Christ).

[Woody]

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Is that what the Bible teaches, that a person is saved while they are continuing to practice sin?

Praise God ... it IS what the Bible through the life and death of Christ as our Saviour does teach us. We do not have to live a perfect life in order to be saved. For ... Jesus lived the perfect life and HE is our substitute. His life is placed to MY account. The Father beholds NOT my sins ... but beholds the perfect life of Jesus. I am viewed as if I have never sinned.

God is Good.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what would you tell a child who has been repeatedly called, "an accident," "no good," "dumb," "stupid," more self-loathing?

I sure wouldn't tell him what he needs is self-love..... Self-love is our problem, not our solution. Those folks that called him names did so to pump up their egos. Why? The love of self!

So what would YOU tell him? That he should feel nothing about himself? Perhaps you can tell him that God loves him? But then if God loves him, what is there for God to love "an accident, no good, dumb, and stupid?"

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"So husbands ought to love their own wives as their OWN BODIES; he who loves his wife loves himself." Eph 5:28 NKJ

When you became married the two became one. You are one body....So take care of each other. That's all.

That's all? Since my wife and I are one, then loving her would be loving myself. And that WOULD be sinful!!! Per your theology!!! Can't have that!!!

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The church is also suppose to be the body of Christ, yet I don't see the so called remnant church living like the church in the book of Acts.

I can't find anywhere in the Bible that what they did was commanded!

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

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But 1 John 3 is speaking to a different issue: the deliberate continuation of sin.

While we wish or try not to do this ... we do deliberately choose to sin....When he practices sin ... he comes back to God and asks for forgiveness. HE is SAVED despite practicing sin.

Is that what the Bible teaches, that a person is saved while they are continuing to practice sin?

Okay guys...I thought we had defined a "practiced sin" as,

1] A known sin

2] One that we refuse to repent of and one we persistently chose to live as a legitimate lifestyle.

Take Gal 5:19-21 for example: The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The church is also suppose to be the body of Christ, yet I don't see the so called remnant church living like the church in the book of Acts.

I can't find anywhere in the Bible that what they did was commanded!

Gerry

It wasn't a command, it happened because of the early rain...it was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit because all believers were in unity on the gospel. Hence this was the fruit of the gospel.

[Robert]

"So husbands ought to love their own wives as their OWN BODIES; he who loves his wife loves himself." Eph 5:28 NKJ....Since my wife and I are one, then loving her would be loving myself.

Again, you are to love her as you love yourself and as Christ loved the church. You must remember that the Jews - the leaders of the church, murdered Him. Yet Christ loved them anyway.

Would you love your wife if she conspired to murder you...if she cheated on you (assuming you're married, etc). Christ loved His wife, the church, even though they hated and murdered Him. If He would have loved Himself He would have refused the 2nd death. He would have come down from the cross, against His Father's will, and saved himself. That's self-love.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Is that what the Bible teaches' date=' that a person is saved while they are continuing to practice sin? [/quote']

Okay guys...I thought we had defined a "practiced sin" as,

1] A known sin

2] One that we refuse to repent of and one we persistently chose to live as a legitimate lifestyle.

Take Gal 5:19-21 for example: The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I'm in agreement with your definition of a "practiced sin," so far as I understand what you've written here.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"So husbands ought to love their own wives as their OWN BODIES; he who loves his wife loves himself." Eph 5:28 NKJ....Since my wife and I are one, then loving her would be loving myself.

Again, you are to love her as you love yourself and as Christ loved the church.

And loving her as I love MYSELF, that would not be sin?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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we also have to make a decision about whether we are going to continue a particular sin that the Holy Spirit has made us aware of.

This is an important issue to look at.

I agree we need to make a decision. Rob made the right decision to stop the sin.

If Rob was, by God's grace, able to stop that sin, is there any reason why any believer should continue, in your words, to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin?"

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Some of us make the wrong decision. But when we make the wrong decision the next time the temptation comes ... we are not outside the Grace of God. We are not a yo-yo. NO ...we repent and try to go and sin no more ... yet once again.

Do you know what a yo-yo does? It goes down, and it goes up! Down & up. Down and up. If, per your theology, a sinner believes, then "chooses sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then repents, then "chooses sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," on and on and on. What do you call that? If that's not a yo-yo, then the earth is flat and the sky is brown!

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But we go forth saved by His Grace.

If a believer who proceeds to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," is still in a state of salvation, then David was still saved while in bed with Bathsheba and while plotting the death of Uriah? And King Saul is not lost? Ditto Ananias and Saphira? Judas? Lucifer?

"The soul who sins shall die."..."But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die....

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live?? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfathfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die." Ez 18:20-24 NKJ

Gerry

[Woody]

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Do you know what a yo-yo does? It goes down, and it goes up! Down & up. Down and up. If, per your theology, a sinner believes, then "chooses sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then repents, then "chooses sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," on and on and on. What do you call that? If that's not a yo-yo, then the earth is flat and the sky is brown!

Yo-yo religion is defined by being of God's Grace and then being out of Grace due to the acts of sin. In other words you sin ... you are out each time.

But no ... those who are in Christ ... do not bounce back and forth . For those IN christ are 'dead' to the curse of the law. The law does not curse those who are IN Christ Jesus. They instead ... repent and the life of Jesus is placed to their account and their life is viewed as perfect.

[Gerr]

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Do you know what a yo-yo does? It goes down, and it goes up! Down & up. Down and up. If, per your theology, a sinner believes, then "chooses sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then repents, then "chooses sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," on and on and on. What do you call that? If that's not a yo-yo, then the earth is flat and the sky is brown!

Yo-yo religion is defined by being of God's Grace and then being out of Grace due to the acts of sin. In other words you sin ... you are out each time.

But no ... those who are in Christ ... do not bounce back and forth . For those IN christ are 'dead' to the curse of the law. The law does not curse those who are IN Christ Jesus. They instead ... repent and the life of Jesus is placed to their account and their life is viewed as perfect.

Sooooooo, once I am saved, I am always saved, forever?

Gerry

[Woody]

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Sooooooo, once I am saved, I am always saved, forever?

Yes. That is a pretty good summation. You are saved as long as you decide to be saved. Once you decide differently ... then you are lost. But keep in mind ... you are saved by the fact that Christ did and died. You are not saved by your works. So, when you sin ... you are not snatched out of the Grace of God. As a Christian you will repent and the life of Jesus is placed to your account. You are then viewed as without sin.

Isn't this great news? Praise God for His mercy towards us sinners.

[John317]

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Sooooooo, once I am saved, I am always saved, forever?

Yes. That is a pretty good summation. You are saved as long as you decide to be saved. Once you decide differently ... then you are lost.

But does it have to be a conscious choice, as in, "I am deciding today against Christ"? What if I just daily make choices that show that I am not fully under Christ's control?

Consider the following quote:

"Unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place." DA 324

[Woody]

That would be our choice against Christ.

[John317]

That would be our choice against Christ.

I agree with you, but the thing is that it's possible for us to think we're in a saved condition when we are really not. Like Rob said earlier, we can be deceived by the flesh. Thank God, though, that He has given us in His Word tests or symptoms by which we can make a self-diagnosis.