Perfect Obedience

[Gerr]

God’s way of prosperity and the world’s way are miles apart. His ideas of prosperity run counter to our capitalistic ways. A glimpse of heaven was seen for a short time in the early church:

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. [No rich, no poor...everyone prospered] 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need....4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

In case you haven't noticed, NOWHERE in the NT was this ever made a law. You are the one who is making it into a law, putting a yoke on believers which the apostolic church did not long practice!

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So when you see Christ's commands to, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor"...when you hear, "no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"...you are seeing heaven's method of prosperity.

As I said before, when you start acting on what you are preaching, then I will know you really believe it!

Gerry

[Gerr]

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"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

All power is available to us to not sin. If we know him as it is our privilege to know Him ... we WILL NOT sin.

Yes, all power is available to not sin. Praise God ... No doubt. To believe otherwise is to limit God.

If you really believed the above, then how can you claim that believers will continue to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin?"

Gerry

[olger]

Of course salvation comes with conditions. All kinds of them. This is pretty basic stuff.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.."

Couple points need to be made:

Christ going to the cross had nothing to do with our will, it had to do with our need. Our acceptance of His gift has everything to do with our will (choice).

Grace. Grace is power to choose aright. Grace is bigger than we reckon in this thread.

Calvinism. The idea that a person can willfully sin (open rebellion) and still be saved is a horrendous lie that the enemy would like you to believe. This path goes off the cliff, friends. None of us have to walk it. It is rooted in a compulsive search for assurance of salvation, and it doesn't make a lick of sense. Know why? Because the truths of the Sanctuary are ignored in it! John Calvin developed a whole system of thought around predestination (as did Luther), and did so because the truth of the sanctuary was largely lost sight of. When the sanctuary faded, so did assurance.

David chose to sin when he took Bathsheba, a child can understand that one. Even Nathan made it clear. Incidentally, God never refers to David as a man after his own heart after this transgression. Let that be noted.

Some of the things we are hearing here are actually worse than Calvin, Theodore Beza perhaps. I guess it won't long until Scofield pokes his head in here.

"But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

oG

[Gerr]

David is recorded as saying, "I delight in thy law" [Ps 119:70]. The man of Romans 7 states the same.

I have no doubt in my mind that Nicodemus "delighted" in the law. Yet Jesus told him, "you must be born again." For, "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn 3:7,3 NKJ

The rich young ruler no doubt delighted in the law too. In fact he even claimed to have kept them from his youth. Yet when Jesus gave him a command, he went away sorrowful. Saved?

The Pharisee who sent to the temple to pray. I have no doubt he delighted in the law too, otherwise why would he even bother to go to the temple to worship? He even had the assurance of salvation! Yet, it was the lowly publican that left the temple justified!

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Now let's focus on David:

2 Sam 11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her.

David, the man who delighted in God's law, apparently didn't give this tremendous temptation to the Spirit, but instead tired to fight it through his will power. Looking is not necessarily sin (depends on the motive), but since David shares the same nature I do I am sure the flesh immediately tempted him sexually. The question is when did his mind lose the battle with his nature? He had time to think it over once he sent one of his man to find out about her. When the man comes back he has made his decision...that is, the flesh has taken control of his mind where he delights in the law of God.

Did David willfully sin? I say no. Why? Because David's heart delighted in God's law, but he must have tried to say "no" to the desires of his nature using his will power. He most likely wanted to do right, but ended up being control by his nature. Sounds like the man of Romans 7.

Rob

Let's see. When lustful thoughts were aroused by David's hormones after seeing a beautiful naked woman, that may very well have been a knee-jerk response. But what do you call it when he inquires about the woman, and even after finding out that she was the wife of another man, sends servants to bring her to his bedroom anyway. What lawyer, what court would not consider that premeditated?

When he plotted the murder of her husband, that was not premeditated? What lawyer, what court, would not consider that premeditated?

What would you call? An accident? No intent to commit adultery or murder?

Gerry

[John317]

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"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

All power is available to us to not sin. If we know him as it is our privilege to know Him ... we WILL NOT sin.

Yes, all power is available to not sin. Praise God ... No doubt. To believe otherwise is to limit God.

I believe what you say here, if by "sin" you mean the deliberate, willful practice of sin, as in stubbornly determining to go on sinning (1 John 3: 4-10). We won't be found doing this if we are born of God and have His Spirit abiding in us. The Bible does, however, make provision for forgiveness and cleansing if Christians sin, just as 1 John 1: 9 says. But, for sure, it is not necessary for those who have been freed from sin to go on sinning. The Holy Spirit does provide the power to believers so that we may overcome every temptation.

[John317]

Did David willfully sin? I say no. Why? Because David's heart delighted in God's law, but he must have tried to say "no" to the desires of his nature using his will power. He most likely wanted to do right, but ended up being control by his nature. Sounds like the man of Romans 7.

Rob

It seems to me it was a willful sin if I ever heard of any. Wasn't it planned? Didn't he have lots of time to think it over?

David was not like the man of Romans 7. David had the holy Spirit and the man of Romans 7 does not. In other words, the man of Romans 7 is in the flesh, not the Spirit. David, on the other hand, had walked or lived in the Spirit. At the time he committed this sin, he obviously stopped walking in the Spirit, but that was David's choice. He chose to follow the flesh instead of following the Spirit.

By the way, 1 John 3: 1-10 does not say that a man born of God can never commit a willful sin. It says a person born of God does not and cannot practice intentional, deliberate (willful) sin, because the nature or seed of God is abiding in him. Notice the word "practice." It means to continue in sin, to live in it, to go on doing it. David committed willful sin, but he also sincerely repented of it and stopped doing it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Let's see the world says that "self-love" is a virtue.

Jesus says "self-love" is an invention of the devil.[/quote']

Chapter and verse of the reference please?

Gerry

Isaiah 14:12-14. The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation, what the Bible defines as iniquity, which in Hebrew means bent to self [isaiah 53:6]. Hence, the love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

[Robert]

What would you call? An accident? No intent to commit adultery or murder?

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Did David willfully sin? I say no. Why? Because David's heart delighted in God's law, but he must have tried to say "no" to the desires of his nature using his will power. He most likely wanted to do right, but ended up being control by his nature. Sounds like the man of Romans 7.

Rob

It seems to me it was a willful sin if I ever heard of any. Wasn't it planned? Didn't he have lots of time to think it over?

[Robert]

By the way, 1 John 3: 1-10 does not say that a man born of God can never commit a willful sin. It says a person born of God does not and cannot practice intentional, deliberate (willful) sin, because the nature or seed of God is abiding in him. Notice the word "practice." It means to continue in sin, to live in it, to go on doing it.

Like porn use to be for me....Sometimes my flesh would just straight out deceive me...other times I wouldn't fight the flesh, but I always repented. And I never repented because I was lost for sinning...I repented because,

1] I wanted Jesus to justify me before the accusations of Satan.

2] I wanted to be delivered from this particular sin.

[John317]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

By the way, 1 John 3: 1-10 does not say that a man born of God can never commit a willful sin. It says a person born of God does not and cannot practice intentional, deliberate (willful) sin, because the nature or seed of God is abiding in him. Notice the word "practice." It means to continue in sin, to live in it, to go on doing it.

Like porn use to be for me....Sometimes my flesh would just straight out deceive me...other times I wouldn't fight the flesh, but I always repented. And I never repented because I was lost for sinning...I repented because,

1] I wanted Jesus to justify me before the accusations of Satan.

2] I wanted to be delivered from this particular sin.

That's wonderful, Robert. Great to hear that.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17--David was not like the man of Romans 7. David had the holy Spirit and the man of Romans 7 does not. In other words, the man of Romans 7 is in the flesh, not the Spirit.

I haven't decided yet whether I believe he is regenerated at the point where Paul is describing him in Romans 7: 13-24.

I know you believe he is indwelt by the Spirit. I'm not convinced of that because of what other Bible verses say about that subject. I see him as someone whom the Holy Spirit has been working on and who is under conviction by the Spirit, but I don't believe that being convicted by the Spirit is the same thing as being indwelt by the Spirit, nor does being under conviction by the Spirit necessitate that one be born again, in my understanding. One is not born again until one turns in faith to Jesus Christ, which one does as a result of being under conviction of the Spirit. God gives us new birth through the Spirit, but we have to yield to the Spirit's working and commit our lives totally to Christ. It is at that point that the Spirit begins to dwell in us and we are given God's seed or nature to be in us. That's what I understand the Bible to teach.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

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"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

All power is available to us to not sin. If we know him as it is our privilege to know Him ... we WILL NOT sin.

Yes, all power is available to not sin. Praise God ... No doubt. To believe otherwise is to limit God.

If you really believed the above, then how can you claim that believers will continue to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin?"

Gerry

Because we are sinners saved by the blood of Jesus Gerry ... not by how we use the power that is available to us. We will continue to fail to do as we should. We will deny our Lord. We will practice sin no matter how hard we try not to ... we will fail to use that power. But Praise God ... he is there to say we are forgiven when we confess our failings and denying of God.

Isn't this the Good News. Praise God for his loving kindness and Grace towards us sinners.

[Woody]

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predestination

Good Topic Olger ....

" In the council of heaven, provision was made that men, though transgressors, should not perish in their disobedience, but, through faith in Christ as their substitute and surety, might become the elect of God, predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will. God wills that all men should be saved; for ample provision has been made, in giving His only-begotten Son to pay man's ransom. Those who perish will perish because they refuse to be adopted as children of God through Christ Jesus." (ST Jan. 2, 1893). {6BC 1114.5}

"Predestination. Wonderful possibilities are provided for every one who has faith in Christ. No walls are built to keep any living soul from salvation. The predestination, or election, of which God speaks, includes all who will accept Christ as a personal Saviour .... All who are willing to be saved by Christ are the elect of God." {GH, June 11, 1902 par. 3}

Eph.1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Sounds sound to me. What part do your reject?

[Woody]

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The Holy Spirit does provide the power to believers so that we may overcome every temptation.

Thank you John ... this is exactly my point. I am glad that we are in agreement.

[Woody]

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David committed willful sin, but he also sincerely repented of it and stopped doing it.

It is interesting to note that David on his death bed ... conspired to kill another man. In this country he would have gone to jail for a long time if he had lived.

[Woody]

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Many months later....BTW, during this time he still had salvation. The legalist will say every time you sin your fall from grace. This is a lie of the devil. For one you are never measuring up to God's selfless love...therefore technically you are in a state of sin and if we go by the legalistic view everyone would be lost...

Thank you Robert. This is such an important point. Yo-Yo religion is a dangerous teaching and it is alive and well in some of those within our churches. Like you say .... it is a lie from the Devil. But many are sucked into it. They think that they are above God because THEIR Works are more important than the works of Christ our Lord and Redeemer.

I think this teaching is the most dangerous element in our church. It is clearly a tool of the Devil.

[Woody]

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Like porn use to be for me....Sometimes my flesh would just straight out deceive me...other times I wouldn't fight the flesh, but I always repented. And I never repented because I was lost for sinning...I repented because,

1] I wanted Jesus to justify me before the accusations of Satan.

2] I wanted to be delivered from this particular sin.

Praise God.

[Woody]

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Do you believe that David would have been saved if he had not confessed his sin and repented?

There are examples of this. The bottom line is that Jesus knows the heart and He knows if we would have confessed and repented.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You can harden your heart...you can deny that you've sinned. But since David's faith was real he couldn't knowingly practice the sins of murder and adultery. For a season his nature blinded him....

[Nightingale]

How does your "teaching" fit with the sanctuary doctrine?

Just a thought.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you really believed the above, then how can you claim that believers will continue to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin?"

Gerry [/quote']

Because we are sinners saved by the blood of Jesus Gerry ... not by how we use the power that is available to us. We will continue to fail to do as we should. We will deny our Lord. We will practice sin no matter how hard we try not to ...

Where is your Bible reference for such doctrine?

"No man can serve 2 masters." Jesus

"Choose this day whom you will serve..." Josh

Lucifer and his angels got booted out of heaven for persisting in sin, but believers who persist in sin remain saved?

That's NOT good news!!! That's a terrible, tragic injustice!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

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David committed willful sin, but he also sincerely repented of it and stopped doing it.

It is interesting to note that David on his death bed ... conspired to kill another man. In this country he would have gone to jail for a long time if he had lived.

Plotting murder? Or crying for justice? Read the story again. Shemei not only cursed the God's anointed, he was also in rebellion. David's men wanted to chop off his head, but David spared him. Was he repentant? No record that he was. Did Solomon murder him if that was David's intention? No, he brought the sentence of death on himself.

Shimei is a good example of those who persist in disregarding what they are commanded to do and eventually suffer judgment.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Many months later....BTW, during this time he still had salvation. The legalist will say every time you sin your fall from grace. This is a lie of the devil. For one you are never measuring up to God's selfless love...therefore technically you are in a state of sin and if we go by the legalistic view everyone would be lost...

Thank you Robert. This is such an important point. Yo-Yo religion is a dangerous teaching and it is alive and well in some of those within our churches. Like you say .... it is a lie from the Devil. But many are sucked into it. They think that they are above God because THEIR Works are more important than the works of Christ our Lord and Redeemer.

I think this teaching is the most dangerous element in our church. It is clearly a tool of the Devil.

Jesus does not want people to be yo-yos, that's why He said, "Abide, remain, in Me...unless you abide in Me, you have no life in you."

Gerry