Perfect Obedience

[Woody]

Perhaps Olger ... you could come forward and name your source for calling Hillary Clinton a "bisexual". Then you could tell us why you feel it is important and why a Christian would spread unfounded rumors. Perhaps I should start a thread on the evils of gossip. Is there any way that you can show Biblical "support" for doing this?

[Woody]

Olger notes that tattletale mode is similar to annoyance mode and looks forward to summer.

What my dear friend Olger is talking about is following Matt.18 which is what I have done. I consider it Biblical to follow what our Lord has asked us to do. And I have followed each and every step of Matt.l8 with this man. The only thing I have to do now is to consider him a heathen which I am in the process of doing.

[John317]

I have never been approached by Admin. about any such thing as you claim here. The Admin. has never-- in your words-- approached me "about the false accusations and misrepresentations that you consistently make." By saying this, you yourself are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.

[olger]

I'd say you're right about that John.

Olger reminds the "chihuahua" that a very reputable source recently informed him that hillary Clinton is a bisexual. I don't know if it is true or not, but the source is rather believable. The mention was made a couple weeks ago and poor chihuahua almost went into conniptions. They do that sometimes..

Olger advises "chiuahua" to let it go, and remember his bad heart.

Wait..Olger just thought of something.... he would be willing to relate the story "as it was told to him" to a suitable moderator and see what they think of it.

Rest in peace to all,

oG

[Jeannieb43]

Olger reminds the "chihuahua" that a very reputable source recently informed him that hillary Clinton is a bisexual. I don't know if it is true or not, but the source is rather believable. The mention was made a couple weeks ago and poor chihuahua almost went into conniptions. They do that sometimes..

Olger advises "chiuahua" to let it go, and remember his bad heart.

oG

Gimme a break.

Please lay off that stuff.

Hillary's sexual practices are no business of ours.

(I don't believe that rumor for a New York Minute.)

[Woody]

I'd say you're right about that John.

Olger reminds the "chihuahua" that a very reputable source recently informed him that hillary Clinton is a bisexual. I don't know if it is true or not, but the source is rather believable. The mention was made a couple weeks ago and poor chihuahua almost went into conniptions. They do that sometimes..

Olger advises "chiuahua" to let it go, and remember his bad heart.

Wait..Olger just thought of something.... he would be willing to relate the story "as it was told to him" to a suitable moderator and see what they think of it.

Rest in peace to all,

oG

No moderator is needed. You made this statement in public and the Christian thing to do is to disclose the source of your rumor. This is an Un-Christian attack on another human being and it is sick. This has no place in a Christian Forum.

[Robert]

Quote:

So when Jesus tells us, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" He isn't commanding us to do what we already do - i.e., love ourselves. No, He is commanding us to redirect that self-love from ourselves and instead redirect it towards our neighbors. In other words we are to love our neighbors as we naturally, sinfully and selfishly love ourselves. Ellen White understood this, why can't you?

[color:blue]

When you strip yourself of everything you have and give them to your neighbors, then I will know that you REALLY BELIEVE what you are preaching. Until then, it is nothing but hot air.

Sorry...I'm not under law...I'm not the one pushing salvation by works...I'm not the one claiming to be a commandment keeper and part of the Remnant, but you are! Well, you are failing because not only do you "love yourself" but you actually call sin (i.e., the love of self), a Christian virtue. That's like me calling adultery not sin, but expressing love...something good.

[John317]

Thank you, Robert and Gerry, for keeping to the subject of the thread. Good discussion here.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Quote:

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. " AA 560

IOWs ... We will sin until the day we die. Seems like someone else I know of said that .

Is that what she is saying? No victory? Is she saying that one will continue a lifetime of choosing sin? A lifetime of denying God? A lifetime of willfully practicing sin?

Gerry

Hey Gerry .... Now you're getting warm. Welcome to the fold of Grace.

Jesus died because of sin, my friend. Grace will never in any way shape or form, sanctify sin.

Jesus plainly said, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

So when Jesus tells us, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" He isn't commanding us to do what we already do - i.e., love ourselves. No, He is commanding us to redirect that self-love from ourselves and instead redirect it towards our neighbors. In other words we are to love our neighbors as we naturally, sinfully and selfishly love ourselves. Ellen White understood this, why can't you?

When you strip yourself of everything you have and give them to your neighbors, then I will know that you REALLY BELIEVE what you are preaching. Until then, it is nothing but hot air. Heaven is not something by and by, heaven begins here and now!

Gerry

If what I am seeing now here on this earth .... is HEAVEN .... I change my mind. I don't care to go to heaven.

If you re-read what I wrote, I never said this is heaven now. When Jesus came, He said, "The kingdom of God is upon you." "The kingdom of God is within you."

When you start walking with Jesus, the kingdom of heaven, the reign of God has begun - within you!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

He doesn't forgive if you don't sincerely confess your sins. That seems to be missing in your comments and perhaps in your experience as well.

John317 ... I would refer you to : Post #160654 - Today at 01:53 PM where I said : "When we ask for forgivenss ... we are forgiven."

Then I would refer you to : Post #160668 - Today at 03:35 PM where I said : "And we MUST ask for forgiveness. That is our responsibility.If we fail to do that ... WE ARE LOST. "

Not sure how more clear I could make it. So I did not deserve your misrepresentation and irresponsible post as follows ...

"He doesn't forgive if you don't sincerely confess your sins. That seems to be missing in your comments and perhaps in your experience as well. "

I should note that this came in lastly on Post ##160674 - Today at 03:51 PM

But even if I hadn't clearly articulate the opposite of what you accused me of ... you have no business speaking to MY personal experience. You have wrongly misrepresented me. Now ... what do you think is the Christian thing to do?

I will leave that up to you.

[olger]

I thought John's explanation of self love made sense - in the context of placing the proper value on the human soul, Robt.

The text in Ephesians 5:28 used to give me pause, but it makes sense today. There has to be a right kind of self-love for the equation to work "So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. he that loveth his wife loveth himself."

We are in NO way lauding selfishness, that is the hallmark of sin, the mantra of iniquity.

oG

[Robert]

To all,

Let's go back to Romans 7, verses 18-20. Let's look at this idea of willful sin:

18 For I [the man of Romans 7] know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil [the sin] I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." [NASB]

Clearly the man of Romans 7 wants to do right...in fact he can "will" what is right, but he cannot follow through.

Verse 22: For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self [i.e., the inward man - a phrase Paul uses to describe believers], 23 but I see in my members another law [i.e., the law of sin] at war with the law of my mind [the will] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

Clearly the man of Romans is meeting with defeat because he is trying to use his "will power" to defeat "the law of sin" (the sin nature). But like I've maintained, there's no condemnation even though he is failing.

Is the man of Romans 7 willfully sinning? Let's say he sees a really good-looking woman. Immediately his nature (the law of sin) places sexual feelings and desires into his mind. But since he delights in God's law according to the inward man he tells his flesh no. Now for a season he might be able to use his will power to say no to the flesh, but then he's going to have a bad day...maybe he feels bad...or he's stressed out at work...and here comes this gorgeous woman again. Well, his will is weakened due to stress and the flesh takes advantage of this and before you know it he is indulging all sorts of lustful thoughts. Now the nature has his mind and if that woman wants to make an advance he is at her mercy.

Question: Did the man of Romans 7 want to have these lustful thoughts? Did he want to go to bed with her? No, but he couldn't consistently say "no" to the desires of his nature and he sins. He does what he does not want to do.

That being the case, that's not willful sin.

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

It sounds like unconditional love is being confused with unconditional salvation.

Hey ... who turned on the light bulb around here. Finally.

Yes, we do have unconditional salvation. When we ask for forgivenss ... we are forgiven. No conditions are attached. He doesn't say to us ... "No you have to first live a life without sin". No There are no conditions attached. He came for sinners. His purpose is to forgive those who ask.

Praise God for this Good News.

Praise God all you want, BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNCONDITIONAL SALVATION!!!

"Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Jesus

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Jesus

"No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." Jesus

Better read your Bible more closely because it is FULL of conditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Tell that to Jesus. He thought that He died for your sins and that when you ask forgiveness that you were actually forgiven.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I claim the power of Jesus through His Spirit to enable me to obey, and that is self-righteousness?

Gerry

Who told you that you were measuring up?

Rob

You can accuse me all you want of not measuring up, Robert. But the testimony of Scripture is more important. When I do the above, here is what Paul (whom you claim to understand pretty well):

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS, and ABOVE REPROACH in His sight..." Col 1:21,22 NKJ

Gerry

[Robert]

"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. he that loveth his wife loveth himself."

verse 29 "After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church...."

1 Tim 6:8 "But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

Jesus lived solely for others, but he had to eat...he had to rest...he had to have clothing from the hot sun and the cool nights.

[Gerr]

This topic of willful sin is interesting. My dictionary says the number one meaning is Deliberate and voluntary .

I will point out that when we sin ... it is both deliberate and voluntary. As I have said before ... when we sin - No one is usually holding a gun to our heads and forcing us to sin.

NO. Instead ... there is NO excuse for sin. WHY? Because it is our privilege to know God. And if we know God ... WE WILL NOT SIN. We sin ... because we make a deliberate and voluntary choice to not know God as is our privilege to know Him.

When we sin .... it is voluntary on our part. It IS WILLFUL. It is our will to do as we please. IF it was our will to know God ,... then we would not sin. WE make the choice.

In the end ... WE are responsbile for the sins we commit. I reject this excuse making that somehow we are not responsible for them. We ARE. And we MUST ask for forgiveness. That is our responsibility.

If we fail to do that ... WE ARE LOST.

"Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness." Jesus

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Who told you that you were measuring up?

Rob [/quote']

You can accuse me all you want of not measuring up, Robert. But the testimony of Scripture is more important. When I do the above, here is what Paul (whom you claim to understand pretty well):

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS, and ABOVE REPROACH in His sight..." Col 1:21,22 NKJ

Gerry

He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS

In Him..not in you, you are 100% Holy and Blameless.

[John317]

Thank you for leaving it up to me.

If you will go back and check the posts we are speaking of, you will see that I was working on my post at the time you made your statement. In any case, I did not see your statement at the time I wrote mine.

We do not always read everything someone else writes. A lot of times people will mistake what I mean or not read what I've read. I'm always glad to repeat it or explain. I'm glad to see that you do believe that it's necessary to confess our sins and ask God for forgiveness.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS

In Him..not in you, you are 100% Holy and Blameless.

"Trust and obey, for there's no other way,

To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

Gerry

[Woody]

Thanks John317. Next time it might be good to read what I've said when referring to what is "missing in my comments ".

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sorry...I'm not under law...I'm not the one pushing salvation by works...I'm not the one claiming to be a commandment keeper and part of the Remnant, but you are! Well, you are failing because not only do you "love yourself" but you actually call sin (i.e., the love of self), a Christian virtue. That's like me calling adultery not sin, but expressing love...something good.

Oh, you are not under law but the rest of us are? By "not under law" you mean that you can be selfish, break every single one of the 10c without any liability?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS

In Him..not in you, you are 100% Holy and Blameless.

"Trust and obey, for there's no other way,

To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

Gerry

That's not the context you just quoted! boy, you can really play dodge ball. You know, I don't think you are interested in anything outside your narrow minded, legalistic view. So be it!

[Robert]

Quote:

Sorry...I'm not under law...I'm not the one pushing salvation by works...I'm not the one claiming to be a commandment keeper and part of the Remnant, but you are! Well, you are failing because not only do you "love yourself" but you actually call sin (i.e., the love of self), a Christian virtue. That's like me calling adultery not sin, but expressing love...something good.

Oh, you are not under law but the rest of us are? By "not under law" you mean that you can be selfish, break every single one of the 10c without any liability?

Gerry

EGW (this fits you):

So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation.