Perfect Obedience

[Robert]

"Love your neighbor as yourself!" That, if you think about it, is staggering! He does not say that we must love our neighbor more than we love ourselves; he says we must love him as or in the same ways that we love ourselves. In other words, the way we every day demonstrate our love for ourselves is precisely the way in which we are to demonstrate our love for others. It really is very easy to understand; it is much more difficult to practice!

You are in love with yourself, aren't you? Face it, there is no one on earth more concerned with your happiness or your well-being than you are. There is no one more careful than you to see to it that you are not hungry! No one is more concerned with your rights or your health or your wealth--or your wardrobe for that matter. Our love for ourselves is obvious! It is evident by the fact that we go to whatever lengths necessary to care for our every whim.

Jesus says, that is how you must love your neighbor. His concerns are to be your concerns. His burdens are to be your burdens. His problems are to be your problems. His joys are to be your joys. And his needs are to be your needs--your needs to meet. In short, your neighbor's happiness and welfare are to be the object of your ambition.

As usual, Jesus here turns our society's ideals on their head. His demand runs exactly opposite to the advice of modern counsellors. We are told today that our greatest, most fundamental need is a greater love for ourselves. Indeed, if we would but learn to love ourselves more, we are told, we would find all of life sweeter. "Self-esteem" has become our highest ambition.

It is incredible how the world can be so consistently wrong in its ideals, but here it is again. It is abundantly obvious that our love for ourselves is precisely the problem, not the solution! If we were not already so in love with ourselves we would love our neighbor more! Our relationship with him would not be hindered by self-centeredness and pride; by love for him it would thrive and prosper to our own pleasure and his.

"Love your neighbor as yourself" implies not that we need more love for ourselves but that we already love ourselves quite enough and that we should instead redirect that love to others! In fact, self-love by very definition runs contrary to true love: "love seeks not its own," the apostle Paul says. Love, by the nature of it, demands a focus on the good of others.

It is precisely our self-love that ruins our relationships with others! But Jesus has the perfect and so obvious cure for all that--"Love your neighbor as yourself!" What we need, Jesus says, is a redirection of our love. We must turn it outward (for a change!). We must focus on the good and help of others, not allowing our natural selfishness to get in the way.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS

In Him..not in you, you are 100% Holy and Blameless.

You can go over several years of posts I have ever made in this forum and you will never find any claim that it is ever about ME!!! But you claim it is because I teach what Jesus taught, i.e. that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments, that when we abide in Him, we will be walking in His steps. We may do so imperfectly, nevertheless, there is none of this choosing sin, denying God, and willfully practicing sin that your amen corner has been proclaiming.

Or are you also of the same mind that believers will continue to "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin" until Jesus comes? Or substituting "selfish" your own word, will the believer continue to willfully, deliberately, and intentionally be "selfish" until Jesus comes?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

"Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness." Jesus

He is speaking to you then. For you practice lawlessness. And worse than that ... you will deny it. That is a double sin.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. he that loveth his wife loveth himself."

verse 29 "After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church...."

1 Tim 6:8 "But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

Jesus lived solely for others, but he had to eat...he had to rest...he had to have clothing from the hot sun and the cool nights.

So if I give my wife food and clothing she will feel loved?

Not hardly. I've actually had some men tell me that, and their marriage was on the rocks. There's a lot more to it than than food & clothing. An orphanage can provide that, but they can't fill the hole in the heart of an abandoned child. A wife and a child wants your heart, not just things.

oG

[Gerr]

You are talking about a twisted, sick, form of love. We have said it before, I'll say it again.

If you have an unhealthy love for self, that unhealthy love will then be the kind of love that you will love others with - twisted and sick!!!

Talk to any psychologist or psychiatist, Robert, and find out what people who have no love for self, or who have an unhealthy love for self, what they do to others.

Here are Bible variations of the same rule of love, i.e. loving your neighbor as yourself.

"Forgive us our debts AS we forgive our debtors."

"The measure you give is the measure you will receive."

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death to present you HOLY, and BLAMELESS

In Him..not in you, you are 100% Holy and Blameless.

It is interesting to watch how that some try to claim salvation through the works that are done through them ... rather than the works that were done through Jesus on the cross by doing and dying.

It is an interesting contrast of religions. Thanks for contrasting this Robert.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness." Jesus

He is speaking to you then. For you practice lawlessness. And worse than that ... you will deny it. That is a double sin.

If I "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then He is indeed speaking to me.

Gerry

[John317]

In your understanding, does everyone with the exception of Christ "practice lawlessness"?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

"Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness." Jesus

He is speaking to you then. For you practice lawlessness. And worse than that ... you will deny it. That is a double sin.

If I "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then He is indeed speaking to me.

Gerry

You got that right. We all do that. Praise God ... He died for our sins. Do you think that when Peter denied Jesus ... that it was an unpardonable sin? OR did he not choose to sin? Did someone "force" him to deny His Lord?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If I "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," then He is indeed speaking to me.

Gerry

You got that right. We all do that.[/quote']

IF we all did that, then Christ died for naught, and heaven will be empty.

"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? ....he shall die." Ez 18

Quote:

Praise God ... He died for our sins.

Yes, praise God He died for our sins. But He died to save us FROM our sins not IN our sins. Mt 1:21.

Quote:

Do you think that when Peter denied Jesus ... that it was an unpardonable sin? OR did he not choose to sin? Did someone "force" him to deny His Lord?

No, Peter did not commit the unpardonable sin. Read about his repentance, that he "wept bitterly." Did he keep on choosing sin? Did he keep on denying his Lord? Did he keep on willfully practicing sin? You won't find it in his writings or on the testimony of the others that he kept on practicing sin. In fact he is the one who claimed that God has made provision for believers to live a godly life!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Did he keep on choosing sin? Did he keep on denying his Lord? Did he keep on willfully practicing sin?

Yes. Yes. and YES. No where in scripture will you find that he stopped sinning or denying his Lord. His denial was not a one time occurance. I would challenge you to find anywhere that is says he stopped sinning. He continued to practice sin but sin that he repented of.

[Woody]

Quote:

Talk to any psychologist or psychiatist

I think it is best to refer to the Bible rather than to just any psychologist or psychiatist.

[Robert]

Talk to any psychologist or psychiatist, Robert, and find out what people who have no love for self, or who have an unhealthy love for self, what they do to others.

Let's see the world says that "self-love" is a virtue.

Jesus says "self-love" is an invention of the devil.

Well, we know where you stand - on the world's side!

[Robert]

God’s way of prosperity and the world’s way are miles apart. His ideas of prosperity run counter to our capitalistic ways. A glimpse of heaven was seen for a short time in the early church:

Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. [No rich, no poor...everyone prospered] 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need....4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

So when you see Christ's commands to, "Sell your possessions and give to the poor"...when you hear, "no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"...you are seeing heaven's method of prosperity.

Face it...we practice Lucifer's way of prosperity, which brings greed, hatred, jealousy, envy, wars and bloodshed and a host of other sins of the flesh.... Self-seeking destroys peace....

God’s way is laid out in that statement from EGW:

“You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

The problem is that if you practice righteousness, to its fullest in this world, is that you will become destitute. Christ proved this….We are not fully selfless…hence we fall short of the glory of God. Therefore no one can make the claim that they are sinless, but to call sin, righteousness (as Gerry does) is pure lawlessness!

[Robert]

Agape

[olger]

Paul warned Timothy that in the last days men would be "lovers of self." This is talking about self-focus, ie selfishness.

Paul goes on to tell us that this selfishness will be demonstrated in iniquity (covetous, prideful, disobedience). He knows what he is talking about. He has already cast judgement on people who say "Let us do evil that good may come." Their condemnation is deserved, says the servant of God (Romans 3:8).

Walk with the King,

oG

[Gregory Matthews]

I am getting complaints regardging this thread from people who do not post here but are reading the posts that others are making. I am becomming more concerned about it. A week or so ago I posted a message advising you-all to cool it. It appears that my advice has not been taken.

I am pretty liberal as to how I allow the conversation to progress. I have never followed the advice of some to limit the discussion to a narrow view of the topic as stated in the title as given by the person who began the thread. I do not intend to begin limiting the discussion.

Howevever, certain posts here have, in my mind crossed the line. This section of Club Adventist is titled "Bible and Theology." It is not appropriate to menition elected political officials and to discuss their alleged sexual practices. The reference to a candidate for political office in that context is inappropriate It needs to stop.

NOTE: Political issues belong on other areas of Club Adventist.

In addition, the personalization of posts that is going on needs to stop. I do not have a problem with frank discussions. I do have a problem with those discussions that leave the basic subject and attack individuals.

If the above does not stop, I will close this thread in order to give you a cooling off period of time to consider your posts.

You will note that I am not closing it now. That reason is because the majority of posts, in my opinion, have been appropriate and made by people who want to continue the discussion. I do not want to cut those people off from discussing the issues. But, I am coming to the place where I feel a need to deal with the few inappropriate posts.

Please heed my advice.

[olger]

Thanks Greg. I know just what you mean.

The comment about the political candidate was made in a political thread a couple weeks. Why it was brought up here is a question that needs to be asked.

oG

[Robert]

Okay John, you stated (I believe?) that the man of Romans 7 is not practicing or condoning known sin. I agree. Again, here's why:

Quote:

Let's go back to Romans 7, verses 18-20. Let's look at this idea of willful sin:

18 For I [the man of Romans 7] know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil [the sin] I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." [NASB]

Clearly the man of Romans 7 wants to do right...in fact he can "will" what is right, but he cannot follow through.

Verse 22: For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self [i.e., the inward man - a phrase Paul uses to describe believers], 23 but I see in my members another law [i.e., the law of sin] at war with the law of my mind [the will] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

Clearly the man of Romans is meeting with defeat because he is trying to use his "will power" to defeat "the law of sin" (the sin nature). But like I've maintained, there's no condemnation even though he is failing.

Is the man of Romans 7 willfully sinning? Let's say he sees a really good-looking woman. Immediately his nature (the law of sin) places sexual feelings and desires into his mind. But since he delights in God's law according to the inward man he tells his flesh no. Now for a season he might be able to use his will power to say no to the flesh, but then he's going to have a bad day...maybe he feels bad...or he's stressed out at work...and here comes this gorgeous woman again. Well, his will is weakened due to stress and the flesh takes advantage of this and before you know it he is indulging all sorts of lustful thoughts. Now the nature has his mind and if that woman wants to make an advance he is at her mercy.

Question: Did the man of Romans 7 want to have these lustful thoughts? Did he want to go to bed with her? No, but he couldn't consistently say "no" to the desires of his nature and he sins. He does what he does not want to do.

That being the case, that's not willful sin.

Rob

What are your thoughts?

[Robert]

David is recorded as saying, "I delight in thy law" [Ps 119:70]. The man of Romans 7 states the same.

Now let's focus on David:

2 Sam 11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” 4 Then David sent messengers to get her.

David, the man who delighted in God's law, apparently didn't give this tremendous temptation to the Spirit, but instead tired to fight it through his will power. Looking is not necessarily sin (depends on the motive), but since David shares the same nature I do I am sure the flesh immediately tempted him sexually. The question is when did his mind lose the battle with his nature? He had time to think it over once he sent one of his man to find out about her. When the man comes back he has made his decision...that is, the flesh has taken control of his mind where he delights in the law of God.

Did David willfully sin? I say no. Why? Because David's heart delighted in God's law, but he must have tried to say "no" to the desires of his nature using his will power. He most likely wanted to do right, but ended up being control by his nature. Sounds like the man of Romans 7.

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

Did he keep on choosing sin? Did he keep on denying his Lord? Did he keep on willfully practicing sin?

Yes. Yes. and YES. No where in scripture will you find that he stopped sinning or denying his Lord. His denial was not a one time occurance. I would challenge you to find anywhere that is says he stopped sinning. He continued to practice sin but sin that he repented of.

He was denying his Lord while being crucified upside down?

BTW, you keep repeating your mantra that every believer "choose sin, deny God, and willfully practice sin," but I can't seem to recall that you have ever presented any Biblical evidence? Why don't you present Scripture to back up your claim?

If Peter kept on doing what you claim he did till the day he died, how then could he claim:

"...His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

For this very reason, make EVERY EFFORT toADD to your faith GOODNESS; and to goodness, KNOWLEDGE; and to knowledge SELF-CONTROL; and to self-conrol, PERSEVERANCE and to perseverance, GODLINESS; and to godlness, BROTHERLY KINDNESS; and to brotherly kindness, LOVE. For if you possess these qualities in INCREASING measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." 2 Pe 1:3-9 NIV

Same old Peter? The one who was crucified upside down witnessing for his Lord?

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God....

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6 NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Sorry...I'm not under law...I'm not the one pushing salvation by works...I'm not the one claiming to be a commandment keeper and part of the Remnant, but you are! Well, you are failing because not only do you "love yourself" but you actually call sin (i.e., the love of self), a Christian virtue. That's like me calling adultery not sin, but expressing love...something good.

Oh, you are not under law but the rest of us are? By "not under law" you mean that you can be selfish, break every single one of the 10c without any liability?

Gerry

EGW (this fits you):

So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation.

Non sequitor again!!!

So I will repeat the question. By saying, "I am not under law," do you mean that you are free to be selfish? Free to break any or all of the 10c? And still claim salvation and being "in Christ?"

If you are, then here is another question: Lucifer & his followers were thrown out of heaven because of the sin of selfishness, but Robert and Redwood and whoever else that believe in your theology, can be selfish, keep on deliberately sinning but yet have a claim on heaven? How then can God boot Lucifer out and let you or me in if that's what believers keep on doing?

The last time I checked, God plays no favoritism!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Tell that to Jesus. He thought that He died for your sins and that when you ask forgiveness that you were actually forgiven.

You brazenly make a statement that salvation has no conditions. When it is shown to be false, you reply with a non sequitor.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Talk to any psychologist or psychiatist, Robert, and find out what people who have no love for self, or who have an unhealthy love for self, what they do to others.

Let's see the world says that "self-love" is a virtue.

Jesus says "self-love" is an invention of the devil.

Chapter and verse of the reference please?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

All power is available to us to not sin. If we know him as it is our privilege to know Him ... we WILL NOT sin.

Yes, all power is available to not sin. Praise God ... No doubt. To believe otherwise is to limit God.