Perfect Obedience

[John317]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

I quote this and you go on and on to disagree with what Ellen says. I stand by it. For it shows me that all sin is our fault. We have all the power available to us to not sin. But ... we will willfully decide to sin by our decision to not know God as we should. This is willful as all of our sins are. No one is holding a gun to us and forcing us to sin. This is willful.

But not all sin is willful, Redwood. For instance, the sins of the man of Romans 7 are not willful. He can't help but sin because he does not have the Holy Spirit in his life. He does not consent to sin. He does not want to do it. He wants to do what is right. He is not choosing to sin. That is because the man of Romans 7 does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling, or living, in him. He is not controlled by the Spirit. He is controlled by, and is a slave to, sin. He is in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

The difference is that some people choose sin even after they have been freed from sin by the Holy Spirit. Then they have the freedom to choose. They don't HAVE to sin. They sin deliberately and freely because they enjoy their sin after they experience the liberty given to them by the Holy Spirit. They could resist it but they choose not to.

Willful sin, then, occurs when we "will to sin." We choose it. We want it. That is why it is called willful sin.

It occurs when I say, "I will continue to sin and resist the Holy Spirit," instead of saying, as a Christian who loves God, "By His grace, I will submit to God and obey Him until the day I die." That is their will.

[John317]

Quote:

But why are some sealed and other aren't?

See above before you attempt to answer that.

I see several things above. What exactly do you refer to?

Will everyone be "sealed" or saved who have been "justified"?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

There is a healthy self-love and a destructive self-love. In your thinking, ALL self-love is sin.

Why do you deny that self-love is sin? I'll tell you why because if self-love is sin then you are willfully sinning!

As has been said already, there is a righteous or right kind of self-love and a sinful, wicked kind of self-love. There is no question but what God made Adam and Eve with the right kind of self-love. The Fall caused that self-love to be perverted into selfishness. This kind of self-love causes one to put one's own will above God's will and also causes us to de-value other people. These two kinds of self-love, rightly understood, are not one and the same.

The kind of self-love that God means for us to have causes us to put a correct value on ourselves. It causes us to want to be saved, and to fulfill the conditions of salvation, because of the value that God places on us. By the same token, it causes us to recognize that other people are also of the same value to God. So, true love of self and true love for others are two sides of the same coin-- both are necessary and both are interconnected. Both are a fruit, or the result, of the Spirit.

[Woody]

Quote:

he does not have the Holy Spirit in his life

That is a 'willful' sin. We all have the choice to accept the Holy Spirit in our life and to know God as He is. If we do that ... we will not sin. To any degree that we do not accept the Holy Spirit ... we are willfully choosing to accept sin in our lives. And we are responsible for that.

You have a very small picture of 'willful' sin. I am afraid that I will just have to disagree with your idea. In the end ... we are responsible for not accepting the Holy Spirit into our life and knowing God as we have the opportunity to know Him.

We willfully choose Satan when we decide not to accept the Holy Spirit and know God as we should.

[Robert]

...the right kind of self-love.

[olger]

This is correct, John. And, I think a proper understanding of the word "sin" will help us avoid unreasonable statements regarding sin.

Sin is going beyond the limits set by God. Sin is the breaking up of all that is good. Sin is wickedness - the restless workings of our fallen nature. Sin can be the result of passion, the result of imprudence, and the result of being deceived. No wonder we need a Savior.

As we begin, let me state that I am a redeemed sinner. I once was lost but now I'm found. Having saved us from sin, God now works through His Spirit to make that which was once attractive, now distasteful. A refusal to allow God's Spirit to work sanctification upon the heart will result in being lost (James 5:20; Romans 3:8).

Here are the New Testament words for sin:

- harmatano, missing the mark.

- paraptoma, falling aside.

- poneria (pornea), moral depravity.

- kakos, vicious desire.

- anomos, contempt for the law.

- athesmos, deliberate assault on all divine & human restraints.

- asebia, impious, describing those who have no fear of God and no reverence for holy things.

- apeitheia, unwilling to be persuaded, or just plain obstinate.

- parakoe, disobedience, or the refusal to listen.

- parerchomai, to neglect, to go past.

- parabaino, to violate, or to overstep the mark.

- adikia, wrongdoing,unrighteousness.

- paranomia, to defy law or custom.

- planao, causing someone to go astray, teaching doctrinal error.

- astocheo, to deviate

- hettema, to give less than full measure.

Hoping that this helps I remain,

olger

[Woody]

Robert ... it is interesting that the same people who think it is not a sin to have self-love ... also deny the following ...

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

They think that they can sin under the excuse that to not have the Holy Spirit is their ticket to sin. But not having the Spirit ... IS willful sin.

[John317]

Quote:

The Bible doesn't teach the right kind of sin....There's no such thing' date=' John!

Neither Jesus nor God the Father condemn people for having the right kind of love for themselves, any more than He condemns us for having the right kind of love for others.

There is the wrong kind of love for others, isn't there? And wouldn't you agree that there is the right kind as well?

So, on what basis do you maintain that all love of one's self is wrong, when you deny that all love of others is wrong?

It does not make Biblical sense to say that God loves me, and everyone else is supposed to love me, but I am not supposed to love myself at all.

If we have no love for ourselves, we will not care what happens to us.

As we've pointed out many times already, Jesus words, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," shows that He is not saying we should not have love towards ourselves. There is nothing in the Bible that can be interpreted to mean that it is a sin for humans to have any kind or any amount of love for themselves. The kind of love we are talking about is the same kind of love for ourselves that God has for us and as God wants others to have for us.

Quote:

The Fall caused that self-love to be perverted into selfishness.

Quote:

No, the fall brought about self-love. Self-love is selfishness.[/quote']

Where does the Bible say that every sort, and all degrees, of self-love was brought about by the fall?

Sin is a perversion of God's gifts. Satan didn't created something entirely new. He perverted what God already made.

[John317]

Robert ... it is interesting that the same people who think it is not a sin to have self-love ... also deny the following ...

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

They think that they can sin under the excuse that to not have the Holy Spirit is their ticket to sin. But not having the Spirit ... IS willful sin.

Only if you had an opportunity to have the Spirit and you refuse it, or if you have the Spirit and you refuse to use the Spirit's available power to overcome temptation and sin. But the man of Romans 7 has not arrived at these experiences yet.

It is not willful sin on the part of the man of Romans 7 that accounts for his not having the Holy Spirit in his life. He is not committing willful sin in that way. He is not consenting to sin. He is not choosing sin. Nor is he choosing to be without the Spirit. He is just beginning to be aware of his need of God to overcome sin. He only comes to this realization in verses 24, 25.

You and I know about the Holy Spirit and therefore we are responsible in a way that the man of Romans 7 is not.

Here is the meaning of willful:

—Synonyms 1. volitional. 2. intransigent; contrary, refractory, pigheaded, inflexible, obdurate, adamant. Willful, headstrong, perverse, wayward refer to one who stubbornly insists upon doing as he or she pleases. Willful suggests a stubborn persistence in doing what one wishes, esp. in opposition to those whose wishes or commands ought to be respected or obeyed: that willful child who disregarded his parents' advice. One who is headstrong is often foolishly, and sometimes violently, self-willed: reckless and headstrong youths. The perverse person is unreasonably or obstinately intractable or contrary, often with the express intention of being disagreeable: perverse out of sheer spite. Wayward in this sense has the connotation of rash wrongheadedness that gets one into trouble: a reform school for wayward girls.

[Woody]

Quote:

Only if you had an opportunity to have the Spirit and you refuse it

We ALL have the opportunity to have the Spirit. If we reject the opportunity that is afforded to all of us ... we are willfully sinning.

If we sin ... we are willfully going against God. For we all have to opportunity to know God as He is. We all have the equal opportunity to not sin. The Holy Spirit is available to all of us in equal fashion.

TO choose against God is willfully going against Him. To excuse our opportunities as somehow ... "not willfull" is a deception from Satan. And is an excuse that you would pay for dearly.

[Robert]

Neither Jesus nor God the Father condemn people for having the right kind of love for themselves....

"The right kind of love for themselves"....Hmmm?

I'll skip the hundreds of NT Bible texts and go straight to the point. Tell me, where is the right kind of "self-love" in the following?

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Notice that agape, by definition, has no "self-love" in it, period! If I loved you perfectly with agape I would live for you. My motivation would be your welfare...your wealth. After all, that's how it will be in heaven:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [their own way] but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Note that there's no self-seeking in agape love. Now ask yourself [this is an example], "Why did I attend college? Did I go so that I could take what I've learned and live solely for others?" If so, that's agape!

Let's see what Christ has to say about human love (which is sinful) compared to agape love:

Luke 22:27 For who is greater [in human terms], the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table?"

Human love is self-seeking. It is always moving up - it covets position. This is self-love.

But now Christ blows away our ideas of love and adds, "But I am among you as one who serves."

In other words true love lives to serve. It doesn't have self in mind. So to be number one is heaven's eyes is to be "servant of all.” Not slave by compulsion, but slave as to live selflessly.

Rob

[John317]

Quote:

Only if you had an opportunity to have the Spirit and you refuse it

We ALL have the opportunity to have the Spirit. If we reject the opportunity that is afforded to all of us ... we are willfully sinning.

Read Romans 7: 113-24. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit in those verses. Is there any evidence that the man of Romans 7 has known about the Holy Spirit or that he has had the opportunity of having the Holy Spirit abiding in His life? In other words, is there any evidence that he has knowingly rejected the Holy Spirit?

If you find any evidence there, what is it?

[Woody]

As I said ... We ALL have the same opportunity to know God as He is through the Holy Spirit. And IF we "know" Him ... we will not sin. Therefore ... there is NO excuse for sin.

[Robert]

As I said ... We ALL have the same opportunity to know God as He is through the Holy Spirit. And IF we "know" Him ... we will not sin. Therefore ... there is NO excuse for sin.

Redwood has a point. The only conclusion is that our surrender is imperfect and therefore we fall short of God's agape love.

[John317]

None of that answers the question I asked. Where in the Bible does it teach that every kind of love for others or for self is sinful and wrong?

No one denies that selfishness is wrong, but the fact is that not all love is selfishness. I think you would agree with that, wouldn't you? If not all love is selfishness, then not all love is sin. If there is love for others that is good and comes from God, then surely there must be love for self that also comes from God.

A total lack of love for self would mean a total lack of value placed on ourselves. Again, if God loves me and commands others to love me, does it make sense that God does not want me to love myself in any way or to any degree?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

As I said ... We ALL have the same opportunity to know God as He is through the Holy Spirit. And IF we "know" Him ... we will not sin. Therefore ... there is NO excuse for sin.

Redwood has a point. The only conclusion is that our surrender is imperfect and therefore we fall short of God's agape love.

Do you believe that there is evidence in Romans 7 that the man being described there is rejecting the Holy Spirit and willfully committing sin?

[Robert]

What is sin?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Redwood has a point. The only conclusion is that our surrender is imperfect and therefore we fall short of God's agape love.

Do you believe that there is evidence in Romans 7 that the man being described there is rejecting the Holy Spirit and willfully committing sin?

Is this a trick question?

The man of Romans 7 is a born again believer whose mind/heart has been transformed. However, he has not yet learned to allow the Spirit to lead. He hasn't learned to "walk in the Spirit".

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe that there is evidence in Romans 7 that the man being described there is rejecting the Holy Spirit and willfully committing sin?

Is this a trick question?

The man of Romans 7 is a born again believer whose mind/heart has been transformed. However' date=' he has not yet learned to allow the Spirit to lead. He hasn't learned to "walk in the Spirit".

[/quote']

I don't ask trick questions.

How could such a straightforward question be some kind of trick question?

I have not yet come to the point of seeing him as being "born again." My understanding of what it means to be "born of God" is that people who have been born again and have the Spirit abiding in them are not slaves to sin, unable to do right but compelled to do wrong against their will.

So again: has he rejected the Holy Spirit and is he willfully committing sin? I say no to both. It sounds like you are saying "no" also.

It seems plain to me that he is not choosing sin but that he wants to do right. He is not consenting to sin. He is not doing it willfully (see definition above).

And he is not rejecting the Spirit, because he knows nothing about the Spirit. He doesn't know about the Spirit until Romans 8. Agree?

[John317]

What is sin?

Don't tell me we can't talk about sin after all these years without first debating what it is.

That's like wanting to talk to someone about the Bible and every time you bring it up you have to begin with the question what the Bible is and whether it is "true" and whether God really exists.

I asked if the man of Romans 7 is willfully committing sin. The fact that "willful" is mentioned implies that there is a choice involved. In other words, is the man of Romans 7 choosing to sin? Yes or no. I say no. What say you?

Also, is he rejecting the Holy Spirit in Romans 7?

[Robert]

My understanding of what it means to be "born of God" is that people who have been born again and have the Spirit abiding in them are not slaves to sin....

[Robert]

Don't tell me we can't talk about sin after all these years without first debating what it is.

Chapter 1 – The Sin Problem

Since the gospel is God’s power to save men from sin, it is important that we begin our study with a brief outline of the sin problem before we turn to its solution which God has prepared for us in Christ.

It is only against the background of man’s total sinfulness and depravity that the gospel of Christ becomes meaningful. The gospel, when accepted and applied to our lives, may be defined by the formula: “Not I, but Christ” [Galatians 2:20]. This formula is expressed in the New Testament in various ways [1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 3:3, 8-9].

The most difficult part of this formula when it comes to its practical application is the first half, “Not I.” The reason for this is because we fallen sinful human beings are born ego-centric or self-centered, and naturally want to live indepentant of God [Romans 1:20-23]. A true understanding of the sin problem is the only sure way of destroying all confidence in self and turning to Christ as our only righteousness, hope, and surety. The following is a brief history and analysis of the sin problem.

1. Origin of Sin

* Ezekiel 28:14, 15. Sin originated in heaven in the mind of Lucifer, the head of the angelic beings. The Bible does not explain how sin could begin with a perfect being, because sin is unexplainable. Hence, it is referred to as “the mystery of iniquity.”

* Isaiah 14:12-14. The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation, what the Bible defines as iniquity, which in Hebrew means bent to self [isaiah 53:6]. Hence, the love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

* Romans 7:7. At the heart of every sin is covetousness or self-seeking. Lust originated with the devil and is not of God [see 1 John 2:15-16].

* John 8:44. In heaven, Lucifer (who became Satan) coveted the position of Christ and therefore desired to murder Him so that he might get Him out of the way (murder in God’s eyes begins in the mind, see Matthew 5:21-22).

* Revelation 12:7-9. Sin in the heart of Lucifer led to war in heaven. Satan and the angels who sided with him were defeated and were cast out of their heavenly home.

2. Development of Sin

While sin originated in the mind of Lucifer in heaven, it was never allowed to develop in heaven. It was on this earth that Satan and his angels developed sin. Let us see how this was done:

* Genesis 1:26, 28. God created this earth for man and, therefore, gave him dominion over it.

* Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own; this is based on the principle recorded in 2 Peter 2:19. Please note that Jesus did not question Satan’s claim that the world was delivered to him.

* John 14:30. Since the fall of man, Satan has become the “prince of this world.”

* 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul refers to Satan as the “god of this world.”

* 1 John 5:19. The whole world, apart from the Christian, is under the control of Satan, or as the Greek text actually says, “the wicked one.”

* 2 Peter 2:19. Man defeated by Satan is in bondage (slavery) to him [John 8:34; Romans 6:17].

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

In the New Testament and especially in the book of Revelation the term “Babylon” is used as a symbol to represent the spiritual kingdom of this world which is under Satan and is in opposition to God’s kingdom and His people [Revelation 14:8, 17:3-6; 18:1-3]. The basis of this symbol is founded in literal Babylon of the Old Testament, the capital of the once-greatest empire this world has ever known [read Daniel 2]. According to Dan. 4:30, the great city of Babylon was built on the principle of self-love and, therefore, represents a fitting symbol of Satan’s kingdom. In contrast, “Jerusalem,” which represents Christ’s kingdom, is from above and is called “the holy city” [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 21:10].

Because Satan is a liar and a deceiver there is much of this world that appears to be good (this is especially designed to be a trap for Christians), but at the end of the world, when Satan will be completely exposed, it will be seen that the whole world (good and bad) worships the dragon “that deceived the whole world” [Revelation 12:9; 13:3-4]. God has allowed Satan to have his own way and develop sin in this world for some 6,000 years. But the time has come when Satan and his kingdom must be exposed and destroyed forever [2 Peter 3:10-13; Psalm 92:7-9].

But for the fallen human race, held in captivity by Satan, God has made a way of escape [2 Peter 3:9]. This is the Good News of the gospel which He wants all to know and receive. According to Matthew 25:34, God has prepared the heavenly kingdom for men “from the foundation of the world,” while verse 41 indicates that the destroying fires of hell have been prepared only “for the devil and his angels.” According to John 3:16, “God so loved the world [the human race] that he gave his only begotten Son,” so that none may perish, but instead all may have eternal life. Those who respond in faith to God’s love manifested in the gift of His Son will experience the deliverence from the condemnation which is resting on Satan and his kingdom [Romans 8:1; John 5:24].

3. Sin Defined

Before we can proceed to study the gospel it would be well to define sin more fully so that the good news of salvation will be meaningful to us. The Bible uses some 12 different words to define sin; but putting these together we may categorize sin into three basic concepts. These three are all expressed in Ps. 51:2-3. They are: iniquity, sin, and transgression. We will consider each one of them separately.

Iniquity

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5]. Our next study will cover this in greater detail.

* Isaiah 64:6. Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love. According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4].

* Matthew 7:22, 23. Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love). All Christians must consider this text seriously. Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]? Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him? [see also Luke 13:25-28.]

* Philippians 3:3-9. The converted Paul recognizes the worthlessness of his self-righteousness and willingly exchanges it for the righteousness of Christ which is by faith.

Once we understand the true meaning of iniquity we will realize that nothing good dwells in us [Romans 7:18] and we will begin to “hunger and thirst” after the righteousness of Christ so freely offered to us in the gospel.

Sin

The actual meaning of this word is “missing the mark.” In Judges 20:16 the Hebrew word sin (translated in the KJV as “not miss”) is used true to its meaning. Used in a spiritual sense, sin is missing the divine mark or coming “short of the glory of God,” which is His selfless love or agape [Romans 3:23].

Since all men are born spiritually “bent” (shapen in iniquity), it is not difficult to see what Romans 3:10, 12 says: there is none righteous and no one who does good. Man’s sinful condition makes it impossible for him to do anything but sin, unless he has a Savior. That is why the gospel is man’s only hope of salvation. While man does have a free will to choose between accepting Christ’s righteousness offered in the gospel or rejecting it, he does not have a choice between doing sin or geniune righteousness. Man is born a slave to sin and no matter how hard he wills or tries, he will fall short of the divine mark [Romans 7:15-24]. For further study read the following texts: Job 15:14-16; Psalm 14:2, 3; Isaiah 1:4-6; Jeremiah 17:9; Mark 7:21-23.

Transgression

This word means a deliberate violation of the law, or willful disobedience. Transgression pre-supposes that one has the knowledge of the law. In the spiritual realm, transgression is the violation of the moral law, or ten commandments of God [see 1 John 3:4]. A knowledge of God’s law makes sin to be “transgression.” Note the following:

* Galatians 3:19. The law was given to make sin into transgression.

* James 2:9. The law convinces us we are transgressors.

* Romans 3:20. Through the law we have the knowledge of sin.

* Romans 5:20. The law did not solve the sin problem but made it “abound” all the more.

* Romans 7:7-13. The law exposes our sinful condition and reveals our total bankruptcy with regards to righteousness.

Since sin is a deceiver, it would be impossible for sinful man to fully realize his condition unless God revealed it to him. This He has done by giving the law. The law was never given as a means of salvation or to deal with sin. The law is incapable of producing righteousness in us because of man’s sinful state [Romans 8:3]; the only way that man can be saved is in Christ. The Scriptures clearly state that “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” [Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16; 3:21-22; 5:4]. It cannot make man holy and good because he is sold under sin [Romans 7:12, 14]. But God gave the law to sinful man to be “our schoolmaster [or escort] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” [Galatians 3:24].

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

My understanding of what it means to be "born of God" is that people who have been born again and have the Spirit abiding in them are not slaves to sin....

We can only experience freedom from temptation as we surrender the will to God's Spirit. Surrender is giving God permission to defeat the flesh in areas of temptation. Without this "permission" God is helpless to defeat the desires of the flesh. Why? God is agape and agape doesn't force...it doesn't coerce. God can do nothing without our consent!

Agreed!

Quote:

He [the man of Romans 7] is not doing it [sinning] willfully

Quote:

"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

He isn't trying to sin...he wants to live the good life, but because he is using his will to fight indwelling sin he meets defeat.

Agreed. That means he is not willfully sinning. To willfully sin means I want to sin. I WILL to sin. That the man of Romans 7 is clearly not doing. He is trying to resist sin but he cannot do it because he is trying to do it on his own strength.

Quote:

He doesn't know about the Spirit until Romans 8. Agree?

Quote:

No, I do not agree. The Spirit of God has written the law in his mind.

There is nothing whatsoever in Romans 7 to indicate that the law of God is written on his heart and in his mind. If it was, he would not be unable to obey it. Having the law written on our minds means the law becomes part of our minds and hearts. And it is written by the Holy Spirit, and we have already said that the man of Romans 7 does not have the Spirit abiding in Him. He is not controlled by the Spirit. He is controlled by the flesh. He is a slave of sin. You cannot have the law written on your heart and in your mind and at the same time be a slave of sin. The Spirit brings liberty, which he obviously has not experienced. Romans 8 is about the freedom the Spirit has yet to bring to the man of Romans 7. In Romans 7 he is under conviction of the Spirit, but he is not yet free from sin.

Quote:

Hence, inwardly, He loves God's law....This is the mark of a born again Christian.

First of all, it doesn't say he loves God's law. He does agree with the law. He finds the law to be good.

What does John say is the mark of the man who is born of God? Is it that he has a desire to obey God? Is it that he agrees that the law is good?

No, John says the mark of the man who is born of God is that he cannot and will not go on deliberately sinning. See 1 John 3: 1-10. Why not? Because he has the nature or seed of God abiding in him. This is the way to tell the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. Nowhere does the Bible say that a mark of the born-again believer is that he has a desire to do right. Merely wanting to do right is not submitting to God's law.

If I'm sitting in a bar drinking a beer and holding another man's hand and planning to go to his house in a few minutes, but I have a "desire to do right" and I "love God's law," that is not a sign that I am born of God, is it? If I am truly born again, I won't be in that bar in the first place. I'll stop going there, and I'll stop doing all the things that go along with it. If I'm continuing to go there and do those things, 1 John 1 and 3 tell me that I am "of the devil." (Being of the devil simply means a person has the characteristics of the devil in terms of sin rather than the characteristics of God in terms of righteousness.) That means I need to think seriously about what I am doing and be aware that I am doing wrong. I need to seek God, repent, confess my sin and surrender my whole life to Him.

[Robert]

There is nothing whatsoever in Romans 7 to indicate that the law of God is written on his heart and in his mind.

[Robert]

If I'm sitting in a bar drinking a beer and holding another man's hand and planning to go to his house in a few minutes, but I have a "desire to do right" and I "love God's law," that is not a sign that I am born of God, is it? If I am truly born again, I won't be in that bar in the first place.

Yes, as long as you are convinced that the homosexual lifestyle is sin [the law written on the mind] AND allow the Spirit to lead in this area, you won't be in that situation, but please don't tell me that it's impossible for you fall into this sin. Why?

You have a nature that is deceitful. Paul calls it "the deceitfulness of sin". Unless you are continuously walking in the Spirit your nature can deceive your mind into sin.

Rob