Perfect Obedience

[Robert]

Paul is describing life without the Holy Spirit in chapter 7.

No, you've got it wrong! Paul is describing a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but instead is trying to rely on his will power to overcome his nature.

Look at the disciples before the cross. They were a bunch of egotistical, greedy, self-centered, angry Jews who would fight at the drop of hat. The question is, "were they saved"? The answer is yes! I would say that they were having the experience of the man of Romans 7....

"Rejoice, because your names [i.e., the disciples] are written in heaven."

[John317]

Pff tricky subject... Ok let s consider some of you knew exactly how somebody will be saved, would that change the way in which you live? If so, then you are not genuine because your intentions are self-centred in the first place and therefore does not come from the heart.

Could you restate this or explain a little further? I think I know what you mean, but I want to be sure.

God appeals to people's interest in being saved and to their desire to improve themselves. That is not being self-centered, any more than it is self-centered to want to be faithful to Christ because you love Him and are grateful to Him for what He has done for you.

Take the instance of 1 Cor. 6: 9-12 (cf. Rev. 22: 12). It says that people who practice certain kinds of sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. Are you saying that if someone who practices any of those things stops doing them because He knows God does not not want him to do them, he is not genuine?

Quote:

So i think it is better to give our hearts to the Lord to the best of our consciounce and ability. God doesn t expect us to be perfect in all truths, this would be impossible for every person. If so, the churches founded by Luther etc. would all be useless because they are far from perfect. What i do know is this, it is foolish to try to enforce high standards of living to others if you cannot achieve this yourself, because the standards whereby you judge, you shall be judged also. Personally i wish everybody to get into heaven, but realise that that would be impossible because it is wrong to accept sin into heaven. The central theme should not be some sentences, but the way in which we have learned to let our own egoos be destroyed. In order for a person to be acceptable in paradise i think it is important that we become like children, open to learn and without egoos. I think that these characteristics are the most important.

So far as I understand your meaning here, I agree with you.

Quote:

And if anyone still sins after he gave his heart to the lord, Jesus will forgive him and we all need forgiveness.

Yes, just as 1 John 1: 9 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Other Bible verses say, "He who confesses and forsakes his sins shall have mercy."

It's dangerous to simply assume that we can go on sinning and be forgiven without repentance, confession, and forsaking our sins.

"Whoever abides in Him does not practice sin." Why? Because whoever is truly abiding in Christ repents of his sins and then confesses and forsakes them. Jesus cleanses such a person of all unrighteousness. He cannot continue practicing those sins (v. 9). 1 John 3: 1-10 means that if we find ourselves continuing to willfully and deliberately practice sin, we need to find out what's wrong with our relationship with Christ because it's evidence we are not right with God.

[olger]

Quote:

"No, you've got it wrong! Paul is describing a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but instead is trying to rely on his will power to overcome his nature."

Olger draws a big smile and clasps his hands behind his head. Then he points out that relying on "his" willpower to overcome "his" nature is not using THE Spirit. A hush falls on the room..

oG

[John317]

Originally Posted By: olger

Paul is describing life without the Holy Spirit in chapter 7.

No, you've got it wrong! Paul is describing a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but instead is trying to rely on his will power to overcome his nature.

What is the specific evidence found in Romans 7 that shows Paul is describing a believer "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit?

Isn't the man of Romans 7 living in the flesh?

[Robert]

Quote:

"No, you've got it wrong! Paul is describing a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but instead is trying to rely on his will power to overcome his nature."

Olger draws a big smile and clasps his hands behind his head. Then he points out that relying on "his" willpower to overcome "his" nature is not using THE Spirit. A hush falls on the room..

oG

And Robert shakes his head because olger can't see the forest for the trees.

Point in case: Do you ever sin? Let me help you: Yes. Why? Isn't the Holy Spirit in you? If so you either willfully sinned or you tried not to sin by using your will power. It doesn't mean that the Spirit is outside of you, it means that you didn't allow Him to fight your battle against your nature.

Get it?

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No' date=' you've got it wrong! Paul is describing a believer indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but instead is trying to rely on his will power to overcome his nature. [/quote']

What is the specific evidence found in Romans 7 that shows Paul is describing a believer "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit?

In Romans 7:22 he makes this statement:

"For in my inner being I delight in God’s law."

There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22.

1. First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

2. Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind.....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable. That is what Jesus tried to convince Nicodemus in John 3:6 where He said:

Flesh gives birth to flesh....

You cannot change the flesh. The only time the flesh will change is at the second coming of Christ. So Paul here is obviously referring to the believer.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In Romans 7:22 he makes this statement:

"For in my inner being I delight in God’s law."

There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22.

1. First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

2. Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind.....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable. That is what Jesus tried to convince Nicodemus in John 3:6 where He said:

Flesh gives birth to flesh....

You cannot change the flesh. The only time the flesh will change is at the second coming of Christ. So Paul here is obviously referring to the believer.

I need to study the evidence you've presented here before I give a response to your main point.

But the Bible talks about the way we can know whether we and others are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Some of the evidences are:

1) God gives life to our mortal bodies through the Spirit (Romans 8: 11).

2) We live according to the Spirit (Romans 8: 5, 13) as opposed to the flesh.

3) We are led by the Spirit (Romans 8: 14).

4) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8: 16).

5) Is spiritually minded (Romans 8: 7) rather than carnally minded.

6) Is in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us (Romans 8: 9).

7) Practices righteousness (1 John 3: 10; 2: 29); is a slave of righteousness, just as we were slaves of sin before the Holy Spirit in-dwells us (Romans 6: 18, 22).

8) Does not practice sin (1 John 3: 9; 5: 18). (Study Amplifed Version here.) (This does NOT mean born-again believers never sin. It means sin is not a normal, typical characteristic of their lives. They are different from the way they were before the Spirit entered their lives. Before being in-dwelt by the Spirit, sin is typical, normal, and routine.)

A question we need to ask and answer is whether the man of Romans 7 exhibits any of these characteristics of being in-dwelt by the Spirit that the Bible itself gives.

If we examine the description of him, we find that he has none of these characteristics. I think this is highly significant. What do you think of these points?

But now I'll study the point you've brought up that Romans 7: 22; Eph. 2: 3; 3: 16; and 2 Cor. 4: 16 all show that the man of Romans 7 is a converted man who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

[John317]

Two brief questions:

Isn't the man of Romans 7 living in the flesh?

Isn't he practicing evil, or sin?

[Woody]

Quote:

if we find ourselves continuing to willfully and deliberately practice sin

I agree with what John317 has said here about willfully and deliberately practicing sin. We do need to come to Jesus and come to Him each and every time we do the above. And we ALL do continue to willfully and deliberately practice sin. But praise God ... he forgives us each and every time we come to Him no matter what sin we continue to practice.

[John317]

Quote:

if we find ourselves continuing to willfully and deliberately practice sin

I agree with what John317 has said here about willfully and deliberately practicing sin. We do need to come to Jesus and come to Him each and every time we do the above. And we ALL do continue to willfully and deliberately practice sin. But praise God ... he forgives us each and every time we come to Him no matter what sin we continue to practice.

I think you misunderstand what the Bible means by "continuing to willfully and deliberately practice sin." I do agree with you that all Christians continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal for us, and I agree with you that God forgives us, as 1 John 1: 9 says, "if we confess our sins." "He who confesses and forsakes his sin will find mercy."

Let me say that I believe our differences on these points is probably due to a different understanding of some of the key words. For instance, "willful," and "practice." Maybe we could discuss what those words mean in the context of sin.

Take a close look at 1 John 3: 6-10, especially in the Amplified version. Notice the NASB and some others use the words, "practices sin" and "practices righteousness."

What does it mean when it says, "He who abides in Him does not practice sin"?

It seems to me that you would say that this is mistaken, that everyone actually practices sin.

[Woody]

I've looked the words up in the dictionary and have a pretty good idea of their meanings.

[olger]

Seems like I read this somewhere "To obey is better than sacrifice."

I think Samuel was correct..

[John317]

I've looked the words up in the dictionary and have a pretty good idea of their meanings.

How, then, do you apply that meaning, as you understand it, to 1 John 3: 6, 7, 9, 10 and 5:18?

We use it as in saying that someone "practices medicine" or that someone is "practicing the violin or piano" or "practice makes perfect." Is there a relationship between its use there and its use in 1 John 3 and 5?

[Woody]

Quote:

"if we find ourselves continuing to willfully and deliberately practice sin, we need to find out what's wrong with our relationship with Christ because it's evidence we are not right with God. "

I find no fault in this. Sin is a mirror. We all sin. And when we recognize this ... we can see room for improvement. We need to do this all of our life. It is an ongoing issue.

But I would point out that it is for us to individually look at. In other words ... I am not to look at YOUR sins and see that YOU need to improve. NO. I look at my own sins.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I've looked the words up in the dictionary and have a pretty good idea of their meanings.

How, then, do you apply that meaning, as you understand it, to 1 John 3: 6, 7, 9, 10 and 5:18?

I've already outlined my interpretations very clearly. When I provide an explanation ... the explanation is ignored and the words prior to the explanation are exploited. SO, I see no need to have a repeat of this. It is a set up for personal attacks. And the truth about my beliefs are just ignored. So, why would I again set myself up for that?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How' date=' then, do you apply that meaning, as you understand it, to 1 John 3: 6, 7, 9, 10 and 5:18? [/quote']

I've already outlined my interpretations very clearly. When I provide an explanation ... the explanation is ignored and the words prior to the explanation are exploited. SO, I see no need to have a repeat of this. It is a set up for personal attacks. And the truth about my beliefs are just ignored. So, why would I again set myself up for that?

I don't remember that you've ever explained specifically how you understand the use of "practice" in these verses. You simply told me that you do exactly what those verses say people don't do if they are abiding in Him or born of God. That is what makes me think you must not quite understand what it means.

Let's take an example.

What if I were to say, "I have no sin," or "I have not sinned"?

Don't you think a reasonable, Biblical response would be, "But the Bible says that if you say these things, you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. It also says when you say these things, you make Him a liar and His word is not in you"?

[Robert]

Two brief questions:

Isn't the man of Romans 7 living in the flesh?

[John317]

Quote:

"if we find ourselves continuing to willfully and deliberately practice sin, we need to find out what's wrong with our relationship with Christ because it's evidence we are not right with God. "

I find no fault in this. Sin is a mirror. We all sin. And when we recognize this ... we can see room for improvement. We need to do this all of our life. It is an ongoing issue.

But I would point out that it is for us to individually look at. In other words ... I am not to look at YOUR sins and see that YOU need to improve. NO. I look at my own sins.

I completely agree.

But what if I tell you that I am going out every week and picking up prostitutes or robbing old ladies? Or what if I tell you that I am intentionally practicing sin? Do you believe that a church member should say nothing to another church member who says they intentionally practice sin, during a conversation in which a question arises as to the significance of sin in the life of the Christian?

[Woody]

Quote:

Or what if I tell you that I am intentionally practicing sin?

Quote:

Do you believe that a church member should say nothing to another church member who says they intentionally practice sin

No need to talk to him about it unless he wants to. He has already confessed to you that he has an issue with sin. We all intentionally practice sin. I've explained all this to you before and don't care to do it again. But, in brief ... I believe that there is no excuse for any sin. The provisions to know God as He would have us know Him ... are there for us. There is no reason why we should sin ... except that we choose sin. IOWs ... we intentionally reject God and willfully practice sin.

I would be praising God that this Christian is aware of it and is talking about this sin ... he is probably aware and seeking to get to know God better so this won't be an issue in the future. But this does take time. Telling him he is sinning when he already knows it and has confessed it ... will probably not do much good. In fact it may be counterproductive.

[John317]

Quote:

Every child of Adam is living in the flesh. Maybe you mean living for the flesh. The answer is no - in his heart he loves righteousness and hates sin' date=' but he's trying to defeat his nature using his will power.

Yet compare Romans 8: 8, 9-- "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." Again, Romans 8: 13: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Those verses prove that not all children of Adam are "living in the flesh." A minority live in the Spirit-- that is, those in whom the Spirit of God dwells. These are, in fact, the children of God (1 John 3: 1; John 1: 12, 13).

This point comes out strongly in 1 John 3: 8, 10, which contrasts the children of the devil with the children of God. Children of God have his characteristics and nature because they have the Spirit of God abiding in them and therefore they do not practice sin; whereas the children of the devil are manifest by their deliberate practice of evil and by their lack of love.

Based, therefore, on the description we have of the man of Romans 7, it seems evident that he is in the flesh, or living according to the flesh. Would you agree? Or do you believe Romans 7 contains evidence that he is living by the Spirit, that is, in the Spirit?

Quote:

Isn't he practicing evil, or sin?

Quote:

15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want [righteousness'], but I do the very thing I hate [sin]. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I [my will - my mind] that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh [my human life]. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law [i.e., a force or power] that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law [force or power] at war with the law of my mind [my will] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. [RSV]

Romans 7: 19 gives the clear answer that the man of Romans 7 is practicing evil.

It does no good to say that it is not really the man of Romans 7 who is doing the sin but that it is the sin in the man who is doing evil. Both sin and the body can't do anything without the mind and the will of man. Besides, greater is He who is in us than is he who is in the world. "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8: 10). This is another aspect that seems to me to be strong evidence showing the man of Romans 7 to be unconverted. He cannot stop his practice of sin.

But if we compare 1 John 3: 1-10, we see clear evidence that the Bible teaches that those who are born of God and are in-dwelt by the Spirit do not practice evil. Rather it says plainly that believers in Christ who are born of God practice righteousness. The Spirit frees them to practice righteousness and they are no longer slaves of sin (Romans 6: 15-18; cf. 2 Cor. 3: 17, 18).

[Robert]

Quote:

15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want [righteousness], but I do the very thing I hate [sin]. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I [my will - my mind] that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh [my human life]. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law [i.e., a force or power] that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law [force or power] at war with the law of my mind [my will] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. [RSV]

Romans 7: 19 gives the clear answer that the man of Romans 7 is practicing evil.

[Guest truthseeker007]

I ve thought a lot about this issue of sin and being saved. I can never become perfect, but i ll try to do the best i can to become a better person. Once i am baptised, i consider myself as a newborn person. Then i am able to forget my hatred, my lies, my disobience to parents, my greed, my coursing, my egoism, my pornographic past, my disbelief, my idolatry and all of the other evils that come out of a self-centred heart. Once i am baptised those sins will belong to another dead person and the new person will be completely different and transformed. This will not make me perfect all of a sudden, but now i can see how evil i was, i am able to live a better and cleaner life. Sometimes i say to myself 'you don t deserve it to start a new life' but then i think to what the bible says and i say to myself 'can you judge a child for the sins that her mother have committed?' i think the answer should be ' no' . Jesus talks about being born twice, the second time in the spirit by baptism in water and spirit. The holy spirit convicts me of sin, and the water i think represents my intentions to walk officially with Christ. Therefore, I don t believe that a newborn person should be judged by others for their past. However, once a newborn person is sinning and feeling in his heart that it s wrong, we still need to repent. I think there are issues that all of us need to repent from throughout our whole life.

[olger]

Exactly. Like Nicodemus who came to meet Jesus after hours, we have to be free from the past or it will steer us like a huge tail wagging a small dog.

Jesus offers to take our yesterdays and give us His tomorrows. We have to be free from the past in order to move forward.

Thus He gives us a new nature instantly. I like your baby analogy. Although we have been given a new nature, we have old habits that stay with us for a while. God wants to change those old habits into good ones. That will take some time. Be patient with yourself. The key is to seek Him daily.

Ezekiel 18 tells us that the child will not experience the guilt of the fathers (or mothers). Exodus 20 tells us that we will inherit tendencies from our parents that can lead to sin. Thanks to Jesus, we can rise above those inherited tendencies.

Walk in peace,

gcw

[olger]

There are many specific sins that must be repented of from the heart if we are to break their power. Moral for example.

God wants us to be free in this area. Past moral failures will often create a stronghold in our life that we can't get free from unlesss we resolve them from the heart (not in an intellectual way). Only then we can experience His freedom and joy (Psalm 16:11).

regards,

oG

[Gerr]

Quote:

No need to talk to him about it unless he wants to. He has already confessed to you that he has an issue with sin. We all intentionally practice sin. I've explained all this to you before and don't care to do it again. But, in brief ... I believe that there is no excuse for any sin. The provisions to know God as He would have us know Him ... are there for us. There is no reason why we should sin ... except that we choose sin. IOWs ... we intentionally reject God and willfully practice sin.

If, as a born again believer, that is what YOU do, then that is what you should state. Stop including every believer in YOUR category as believers who will "choose sin", who "intentionally reject God", and who "willfully practice sin". That, IMHO, is bearing false witness & playing the role of "accuser of the brethren."

As long as you hold to the erroneous view that ALL sins are intentional/deliberate & willful, whether they are done inadvertently or in fact intentionally, then you will continue to proclaim such blatant error as this, i.e. that the believer will "choose sin", "intentionally reject God", and "willfully practice sin". That is as blatant contradiction to everything the Bible teaches.

Gerry