Perfect Obedience

[Gerr]

I ve thought a lot about this issue of sin and being saved. I can never become perfect, but i ll try to do the best i can to become a better person. Once i am baptised, i consider myself as a newborn person. Then i am able to forget my hatred, my lies, my disobience to parents, my greed, my coursing, my egoism, my pornographic past, my disbelief, my idolatry and all of the other evils that come out of a self-centred heart. Once i am baptised those sins will belong to another dead person and the new person will be completely different and transformed. This will not make me perfect all of a sudden, but now i can see how evil i was, i am able to live a better and cleaner life. Sometimes i say to myself 'you don t deserve it to start a new life' but then i think to what the bible says and i say to myself 'can you judge a child for the sins that her mother have committed?' i think the answer should be ' no' . Jesus talks about being born twice, the second time in the spirit by baptism in water and spirit. The holy spirit convicts me of sin, and the water i think represents my intentions to walk officially with Christ. Therefore, I don t believe that a newborn person should be judged by others for their past. However, once a newborn person is sinning and feeling in his heart that it s wrong, we still need to repent. I think there are issues that all of us need to repent from throughout our whole life.

Friend, I have no problem with what you have stated. What several of us are objecting to is the notion that RW has been blatantly proclaiming, that he and all believers will continue to "choose sin," and "intentionally reject God," and "willfully PRACTICE sin", until he dies or Jesus' second coming. That makes me very sad and at the same time raises my hackles because this is as dangerous a doctrine as you can get.

Gerry

[Woody]

I find it equally dangerous for you to declare that there is somehow an excuse for sin. Ellen White is clear that there is no excuse for sin. To blatantly declare that you can sin and not be rejecting God somehow is contrary to the entire Bible.

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

We have two choices in this battle. WE can choose Satan ... or we can choose God. You can't serve both ... you are choosing one or the other when you sin. Our works declare whom we have then chosen. Saying you can sin without choosing Satan while sinning is the root of evil theology. Unless you are without sin ... you are choosing Satan when you sin.

This theology of thinking you can sin without choosing Satan is trying to make excuses for our sins. NO. When we sin ... we are choosing Satan. And we DO sin and will sin until the day we die or Jesus comes and changes us when we SEE His face.

We as Christians need to realize that all the provisions necessary to live rightly and know God are available to us. When we CHOOSE not to avail ourselves to those provisions ... we are choosing Satan. Praise God ... He is a God of forgiveness and when we accept Him as our Savior ... we are not judged by 'our' works but instead we are judged by the perfect life of Jesus. His life is accounted in the place of our life. Praise God. This is the good news. Even though we have chosen Satan at times ... when we ask for forgiveness ... the life of Jesus is placed to our account.

[Gerr]

I find it equally dangerous for you to declare that there is somehow an excuse for sin.

Please show me where I have ever made a statement that I am excusing sin. It is you that have been boldly proclaiming that you "choose to sin," "intententionally reject God," and "willfully practice sin," and yet praise God for His salvation.

Quote:

Ellen White is clear that there is no excuse for sin. To blatantly declare that you can sin and not be rejecting God somehow is contrary to the entire Bible.

I looked up the context of your one line snippet. Here is what she said:

[color:red]"Satan, that archdeceiver, transforms himself into an angel of light and comes to the youth with his specious temptations and succeeds in winning them, step by step, from path of duty. He is described as an accuser, a deceiver, a liar, a tormentor, and a murderer. "He that committeth (present tense - my emphasis) is of the devil. Every transgression brings the soul into CONDEMNATION and provokes the divine DISPLEASURE. The thoughts of the heart are discerned of God. When impure thoughts are cherished, (on-going, present tense-my emphasis), they need not be expressed by word or act to consummate the sin and bring the soul into condemnation. Its purity is defiled, and the tempter has triumped.

Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed. He is turned away from the course of virtue and real good by following his own inclinations. If the youth possessed moral integrity, the stronger temptations might be presented in vain. It is Satan's act to tempt you, but your own ACT to yield. It is not in the power of all the host of Satan to force the tempted to transgress. There is no excuse for sin." 4T 623

(Emphases mine).

What kind of sin is she talking about? Inadvertent or deliberate? Unintentional or willful? Clearly, she is not talking about some accidental, unintentional and inadvertent sin. She is talking about sins that are premeditated and practiced on a regular basis.

What kind of a father would whip his little boy or girl for accidentally spilling milk on the carpet? What kind of a God would condemn a taxpayer or tithe-payer for accidentally putting the decimal in the wrong place?

Quote:

We have two choices in this battle. WE can choose Satan ... or we can choose God. You can't serve both ... you are choosing one or the other when you sin. Our works declare whom we have then chosen.

How many times have I and others told you this? But you keep proclaiming that you "choose to sin," "intentionally reject God," and "willfully practice sin" until you die or He comes, and yet still claim assurance of salvation? Read that 4T 623 reference again. She says anyone who does that comes under condemnation. You can't be under condemnation and yet have assurance of salvation at the same time!!!

Quote:

Saying you can sin without choosing Satan while sinning is the root of evil theology. Unless you are without sin ... you are choosing Satan when you sin.

This theology of thinking you can sin without choosing Satan is trying to make excuses for our sins. NO. When we sin ... we are choosing Satan. And we DO sin and will sin until the day we die or Jesus comes and changes us when we SEE His face.

For one to say that I intentionally kill my friend if my axhead unintentionally flies off the handle and strikes him dead while we're cutting wood, shows either a total lack of a sense of right and wrong or a total detachment from reality. Read Dt 19:1-5

Quote:

We as Christians need to realize that all the provisions necessary to live rightly and know God are available to us. When we CHOOSE not to avail ourselves to those provisions ... we are choosing Satan. Praise God ... He is a God of forgiveness and when we accept Him as our Savior .

You can repeat this mantra ad infinitum, but that won't make it so!!!

Quote:

.. we are not judged by 'our' works but instead we are judged by the perfect life of Jesus. His life is accounted in the place of our life. Praise God. This is the good news. Even though we have chosen Satan at times ... when we ask for forgiveness ... the life of Jesus is placed to our account.

Who can lay claim to the life of Jesus covering them?

"When it is in the HEART to obey God, when EFFORTS ARE PUT FORTH to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will NOT accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment." 1SM 382

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

You can't be under condemnation and yet have assurance of salvation at the same time!!!

This is where we differ.

What a dangerous philosophy. There is NO assurance of Salvation in this. Under this idea ... NO one would be able to be saved. For ... we are ALL condemned sinners and Christ died for us and our sins that so condemn us. It is sad to see anyone deny the purpose of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Your philosophy does not make sense. For ... No one would nor could they be saved. It goes back to your idea that we have some excuse to sin because God does not give us the power to overcome. This is a dangerous idea. God provides us power to overcome ALL sin ... not just some. All provisions have been made for us to know Him as He is. And when we do that we will reflect that in our lives. TO do otherwise is to limit the power of God. Total victory is possible in Christ. PRaise God.

So, in conclusion ... We are condemned. And we are saved. But we are saved from our condemnation because of who we know. His life is placed in the place of our condemnation.

Now that is something to Praise God about.

[olger]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want [righteousness], but I do the very thing I hate [sin]. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I [my will - my mind] that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh [my human life]. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law [i.e., a force or power] that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law [force or power] at war with the law of my mind [my will] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. [RSV]

Romans 7: 19 gives the clear answer that the man of Romans 7 is practicing evil.

Sorry, maybe another version states that, but the RSV does not.

Please study carefully the following evidence, including the note at the end explaining the RSV translation:

The Greek is touto prasso, present active indicative, that is, present continuous action, and is most accurately translated as "this I keep doing," "this I constantly do," "this I practice," "this I am always doing," as reflected in the following 19 translations of Romans 7: 19:

1) "I practice the very evil that I do not want" (New American Standard, Updated edition);

2) "... the evil... that I practice" (New King James Version);

3) "... the evil... this I practice" (Robert Young's Literal Translation);

4) "... the evil... the same I practice" (Rotherham's Emphasized);

5) "... the evil... this I am putting into practice..." (Concordant Literal NT);

6) ".... I practice the bad..." (The Modern Language Bible, Berkeley Version);

7) "... I practice the evil..." (Christian Standard Bible);

8) "... but practice the evil..." (The Bible In Modern English, Fenton)

9) "... evil, this I practice" (Kenneth S. Wuest);

10) "... the evil is what I keep on doing" (English Standard Version);

11) "... the bad... I habitually do" (The Twentieth Century NT);

12) "... this (evil) I keep on doing" (NIV);

13) "... the evil deeds... are what I am [ever] doing" (Amplified);

14) "... I do practice the evil things..." (Charles B. Williams' NT In the Language of the People);

15) "... the evil thing... is what I constantly do" (Weymouth);

16) "... I am practicing the evil..." (Letters From Paul, Blackwelder);

17) "... the evil... that I am ever practicing" (New Testament in Modern English, Helen Bartlett Montgomery);

18) "... the evil.... that I keep on doing" (William Barclay's New Testament);

19) "... the evil... is what I practice" (The Christian Counselor's NT, Jay E. Adams).

Many more examples of translating it in this way might be given.

The RSV does state the same thing in the words, " the evil... is what I do." Notice it is also rendered in the present tense, indicating that evil is something he is doing in the continuous present. It is action that may be represented by a continuous line: ____________

Therefore, on the basis of the above, I say again: Romans 7: 19 gives the clear answer that the man of Romans 7 is practicing evil. That means he commits sin habitually and cannot stop committing it habitually. He needs Jesus and the Spirit in his life. That's the only answer for him and for any of us.

[Robert]

The RSV does state the same thing in the words, " the evil... is what I do." Notice it is also rendered in the present tense, indicating that evil is something he is doing in the continuous present. It is action that may be represented by a continuous line: ____________

John, you are not looking at the whole picture. In his heart...in his mind, he loves God's law, but in performance he's failing. He can't defeat his nature using his will power. You can't love God's law unless it has been written upon the mind.

Now look at verse 15: "For what I will to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

In Eph 2:3 we find the unconverted. Do they hate sin? Let's see: "We all once lived [past tense] in the passions of our flesh, [how?] following the desires of the flesh and mind."

Notice that the unconverted have their natures and mind in perfect harmony. There's no, "I hate" sin!

Clearly, the man of Romans 7 has the converted mind. Is there any condemnation to the one who has been born again, but is failing to measure up? Romans 8:1 says no!

If you disagree then the disciples were unconverted and lost until after the cross. Before the cross they were self-centered and selfish. They were always ready to fight at the drop of hat. But yet Christ told them that their names were written in the book of life.

You really need to re-think your theology. It's legalistic. Really!

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

You can't be under condemnation and yet have assurance of salvation at the same time!!!

This is where we differ.

What a dangerous philosophy. There is NO assurance of Salvation in this. Under this idea ... NO one would be able to be saved. For ... we are ALL condemned sinners and Christ died for us and our sins that so condemn us. It is sad to see anyone deny the purpose of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Your philosophy does not make sense. For ... No one would nor could they be saved. It goes back to your idea that we have some excuse to sin because God does not give us the power to overcome. This is a dangerous idea. God provides us power to overcome ALL sin ... not just some. All provisions have been made for us to know Him as He is. And when we do that we will reflect that in our lives. TO do otherwise is to limit the power of God. Total victory is possible in Christ. PRaise God.

WOW!!! It was you, Redwood, who has been giving the excuse that you will keep on choosing to practice sin and reject God willfully while several of us have been telling you that the one who abides in Christ will not keep on sinning deliberately. Now you are claiming that the position you had been so adamantly proclaiming is what I am teaching and the position we had been presenting is the doctrine you hold! Man, are you ok?

Gerry

[Woody]

Huh ?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Clearly, the man of Romans 7 has the converted mind.

And clearly the man of Rom 7 is like the older son who said "yes", to his father who asked him to go to work in his vineyard but did not go. Contrast that with the son who said, "No", but repented AND went.

Or the foolish man who heard & knew what Jesus said, but did not do anything about it. He built his house on sand instead. Contrast that with the one who heard, understood what was said, and ACTED on that knowledge.

When a believer ACTS on his belief, you label it "legalism."

Gerry

[Gerr]

Huh ?

That's what I'd say!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

I quote this and you go on and on to disagree with what Ellen says. I stand by it. For it shows me that all sin is our fault. We have all the power available to us to not sin. But ... we will willfully decide to sin by our decision to not know God as we should. This is willful as all of our sins are. No one is holding a gun to us and forcing us to sin. This is willful.

However ... those who ask for it will receive the Robe from Christ which covers all of our sins. But the battle of sin or I should say willful sin will continue until the day we die or Jesus comes in the clouds of Glory.

I honestly can't understand your flip flop. My position has been very consistent.

[Gerr]

Quote:

So, in conclusion ... We are condemned. And we are saved.

Condemned and saved at the same time? Never heard of such a thing until you came up with it. I would have to give you credit for original thinking. Again, I wonder though, are you ok?

Quote:

But we are saved from our condemnation because of who we know. His life is placed in the place of our condemnation.

Now, how can you claim to KNOW the One you "choose to sin" against? The One you "intentionally reject?" The One you claim to "deliberately practice sin" against? You may claim to know Him, but will He claim to KNOW you if you are doing all these things?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Read the context of that one liner again, and you'll get a very different picture!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

but will He claim to KNOW you if you are doing all these things?

Gerry ... this is the good news of the Gospel. He loves sinners. Praise God. He came to save sinners ... not those without sin. He told the woman caught in adultry ... neither do I condemn you go and sin no more. So, do you think that she actually stopped sinning? NO. Each time we sin ... Jesus lovingly says ... go and sin no more but I don't condemn you.

If this wasn't the case ... there sure ought to be a lot of perfect people roaming the planet. And with all the people I've seen ... there ain't no perfect people around.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The RSV does state the same thing in the words, " the evil... is what I do." Notice it is also rendered in the present tense, indicating that evil is something he is doing in the continuous present. It is action that may be represented by a continuous line: ____________

John, you are not looking at the whole picture. In his heart...in his mind, he loves God's law, but in performance he's failing. He can't defeat his nature using his will power.

I completely agree with you that neither he nor we can defeat our sinful nature by using our will power. The only way we can defeat it is by surrendering moment by moment to Jesus and by having the Holy Spirit in our lives. But the man of Romans 7 hasn't done that yet. He does it but only in verse 25 does he become aware that Jesus is the only One who can save him from his wretched sinfulness.

Quote:

You can't love God's law unless it has been written upon the mind.

Of course it doesn't say he "loves" God's law. I understood "delight in the law" to mean that he sees that it is a good law and wishes that he could obey it. Verse 16 says as much: "I consent to the law that it is right." I did that before I had the Spirit dwelling in me. I spent years wishing I could obey God's law. So I know a person doesn't have be converted and have Jesus in the life before one can consent to the law that it is right. My mind and heart agreed that the law of God was right. I think that's the sense in which the man of Romans 7 "delights in the law." The word can also be translated as "approving" of the law. All his sympathy is with the law. He endorses it, is pleased with it, cordially approves of it. He sees it as something desirable and good. That is a sign of the working of the Holy Spirit on his mind, but it is not the same (in my thinking) as having been converted or of having the Spirit abiding in him.

It seems to me, then, that the man of Romans 7 is convicted by the Spirit but he hasn't yet submitted totally to Christ or confessed Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.

But I am continuing to study the passage and am open to looking at other views. I used to believe that Romans 7 was describing a converted man. So it is not as if I am unable to change my mind when I'm persuaded by the evidence and by reason.

Quote:

You can't love God's law unless it has been written upon the mind.

I think this is not a correct understanding of the meaning or results of having the law written on our minds. Having it there doesn't simply mean we will love God's law. It means we will be obeying it because the law will be an actual part of our minds and hearts. In other words, having written on our hearts and minds means that we have changed hearts and mind that are in harmony with God's law. It's a process that occurs because of a personal, faith-based relationship with Christ and because the Holy Spirit is living inside us. At conversion we begin ceasing to practice evil and instead begin to practice righteousness.

The law at this point is no longer something that stands exterior to us and condemns us because we're unable to fulfill its righteous requires, but rather its requirements are fulfilled in us because of Christ's and the Spirit's abiding presence in our lives. That is what Paul is saying in Romans 8: 4.

Quote:

Now look at verse 15: "For what I will to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

In Eph 2:3 we find the unconverted. Do they hate sin? Let's see: "We all once lived [past tense] in the passions of our flesh, [how?] following the desires of the flesh and mind."

Notice that the unconverted have their natures and mind in perfect harmony. There's no, "I hate" sin!

Clearly, the man of Romans 7 has the converted mind. Is there any condemnation to the one who has been born again, but is failing to measure up? Romans 8:1 says no!

If you disagree then the disciples were unconverted and lost until after the cross. Before the cross they were self-centered and selfish. They were always ready to fight at the drop of hat. But yet Christ told them that their names were written in the book of life.

You really need to re-think your theology. It's legalistic. Really!

Rob

I'll consider what you've said here. I love the discussion.

[Robert]

Quote:

You can't love God's law unless it has been written upon the mind.

It means we will be obeying it because the law will be an actual part of our minds and hearts.

Now be careful...while you have God's law - the principle of agape - written in your mind, your nature remains 100% its former self. So there's no change in your sinful nature, only in the mind/heart!

Let's look at this:

Romans 7:22 "For in my inner being [the heart/mind] I delight in God’s law;

23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members."

How many law's do we have here?

1] God’s law

2] Another law - i.e., "the law of sin"

3] The law of my mind

Okay the man of Roman's 7 has God's law written in his inner being (the heart), but he also realizes "the law of sin" within him. Notice that "the law of sin" wages war against "the law of my mind" [the power of the will] and defeats it:

"Waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin."

So even though the mind/heart has God's law written in it and desires to live for Him, "the law of sin" opposes these desires. Who wins? Clearly "the law of sin"!

Can anything defeat "the law of sin"? Yes. Turn to Galatians 5:16

"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature."

Again, the man of Romans 7 has not yet learned that his will power [the law of my mind] is no contest against his sin nature [the law of sin]. He needs to learn that the only way to live the Christian life is by "the law of the Spirit" that was "in Christ Jesus" [see Romans 8:2] and not through or by his will power.

Robert

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

You can't love God's law unless it has been written upon the mind.

It means we will be obeying it because the law will be an actual part of our minds and hearts.

Now be careful...while you have God's law - the principle of agape - written in your mind, your nature remains 100% its former self. So there's no change in your sinful nature, only in the mind/heart!

I agree. We always have a fallen, sinful human nature. I'm not saying we aren't capable at any time of falling or sinning. I'm not denying that all of us fall short of God's perfect ideal for us.

But please notice that there is a stark contrast between the "children of God" and the "children of the devil": John says that the children of God "practice righteousness" whereas the "children of the devil" do not practice righteousness but rather practice evil (1 John 3: 8-10). Practicing righteousness does not mean never committing sin or making a mistake or an error. It means that while the children of the devil have a definite pattern of committing sin, the children of God have a definite pattern of doing right. Their lives are different. People who watch them should notice a clear difference between the two kinds of lives. It doesn't mean the one never does anything good, and it doesn't mean the other never does anything bad. But the children of God don't willfully practice evil; that is, when they know something to be evil, they repent and seek God's power to help them overcome the evil. They don't say, "OK, I know it's evil, but I'm just going to go on doing it anyway. God will just have to forgive me, praise his wonderful name."

Are we on the same page so far?

[John317]

[Gerr]

Quote:

but will He claim to KNOW you if you are doing all these things?

Gerry ... this is the good news of the Gospel. He loves sinners. Praise God. He came to save sinners ... not those without sin. He told the woman caught in adultry ... neither do I condemn you go and sin no more. So, do you think that she actually stopped sinning? NO. Each time we sin ... Jesus lovingly says ... go and sin no more but I don't condemn you.

If this wasn't the case ... there sure ought to be a lot of perfect people roaming the planet. And with all the people I've seen ... there ain't no perfect people around.

I agree 1000% that there are NO perfectly obedient disciples of Jesus. But I also know that there are no truly born again believers who "choose sin," and "intentionally reject God," and "deliberately practice sin." According to the Apostle John, anyone who claims "to know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." And that "whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 Jn 2:3,6 NIV

Gerry

[olger]

Dear Redwood:

"So, do you think that she actually stopped sinning? NO."

And you know this, how? This is an example of unnecessary negativism. Evidently sanctification for every person is defined by your own personal experience. Personal experience may help, but it may also distort the truth if we apply our own negative experience to every other person. Pride does that, I think.

Here's to obedience that works by love,

olger

Hebrews 6:10

Luke 6:27

1 John 5:1-3

John 15:10

Daniel 9:4

[Woody]

Dearest Sex Maniac ...

We aren't all interested in the sex life of others as you are. You may be bi-sexual like you claim others to be ... I don't know and I don't care.

I don't go around claiming that others are bi-sexual like you do ... but I do go around claiming that we are all sinners. And that includes Ellen. And NO Sex Maniac ... Ellen was NOT bi.

Sorry ... but sexual gossip about others REALLY get me riled up. I find no Christian excuse for it.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them."

We are ALL cursed because we ALL sin by not doing ALL that is in the book. But we Christians are also saved because the life of Jesus is put in place of our life when the judgment comes.

Praise God.

[Woody]

Quote:

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away." CCh 352

God's people ... those whom He will save are thus described as having :

Filthy Garments

Defective Characters

Sins of Ingratitude

Weakness and folly

Unlikeness to Christ

Hey ... that sounds like ME.

[olger]

:)

Olger says "Hi Redwood." Then he chuckles goodnaturedly and says "If I was like you I would be crying to the admins right now, but.....fortunately, I'm not."

Be sure and keep to the topic of obedience.

Hoping you have a better day tomorrow I remain,

your pal olger