Perfect Obedience

[Robert]

You can ... claim salvation all you want, but here is what the WORD OF GOD says:

[color:red]Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

You must remember that Christ isn't trying to keep us out of heaven. So He meets us where we are at. First He wants us to have the assurance of salvation. Then he begins to convict of sin...not all sins at one time...but one step at a time.

If I have been fully convicted of certain sins and refuse to acknowledge and repent of those sins, then yes I am beginning to harden my heart.

The issue isn't perfection...it's honesty. If I am a sinner I will acknowledge known sin. If not I am stating that I am sinless. Hence what really eventually causes me to be lost is self-righteousness...unbelief.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

By the way, this is also according to the view of Jack Sequeira. See pp. 52, 53 of The Cross of Christ, where he says, "Remember in Romans 7: 14-25, Paul is not discussing the Christian controlled by the Holy Spirit. It is clear he is talking about the believer but he is talking about the believer who is trying to live a holy life in and of himself."

Doesn't matter for the man of Romans 7 is in a saved condition. Read Romans 8:1.

One other thing...he is not trying to live the good life to be saved. A legalist does that.

Did Paul live a good life to be saved? Did Peter? Did James or John? Why did they live the good life? Out of love for Christ, out of their gratitude for what God did for them in sending Jesus. Under those conditions, when they realized the extent of God's amazing love and sacrifice, what else could they do but obey?

But now let's take a close look at Romans 7.

Is the man of Romans 7 led by the Spirit? No. ( Compare Rom. 7 with Romans 8: 12-14. Notice that the Spirit is not mentioned in Romans 7: 14-25. See also Romans 8: 9: "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.")

Is he enslaved to sin? Yes. (Compare Rom. 7: 14, 15, 19 with 6: 17 & 18.)

Is he indwelt by the Spirit? No. (Compare Romans 7 with 1 John 3: 9 & Rom. 8:9.)

Does he have Jesus Christ in his life? No. Jesus is not mentioned until v. 25.

Is Christ abiding in him? No. (Compare Romans 7: 14-24 with 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20.)

Romans 8:1 is not a description of the man of Romans 7: 14-24. That man has not yet been set free from sin. He is still practicing evil (7: 19). He is still walking according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit.

Apply 1 John 3: 1-10 to the man of Romans 7. You will see that he has not been born of God. He is not abiding in Christ. He does not practice righteousness but by his own admission he practices evil. 1 John 3: 9 says plainly, "No one who is born of God practices sin." Therefore the man of Romans 7 cannot be one who has been born of God. He is a man under the conviction of the Spirit, but being under conviction is not the same as salvation. Salvation comes from God when we continue to put our complete trust in Jesus Christ. There is no evidence in Romans 7 that the man described there has put his trust in Christ. He doesn't see Christ as the solution to the sin problem until the very last verse in that chapter. It's this faith in Christ that brings justification and freedom from the law of sin and of death (8:1, 2). But that hasn't yet happened in Romans 7: 14-24.

[Robert]

Apply 1 John 3: 1-10 to the man of Romans 7. You will see that he has not been born of God. He is not abiding in Christ. He does not practice righteousness but by his own admission he practices evil. 1 John 3: 9 says plainly, "No one who is born of God practices sin." Therefore the man of Romans 7 cannot be one who has been born of God.

.... none of that really matters because of Romans 8:1, but first the context - Romans 7:25.

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! [That's his cry] So then, on the one hand I myself [i.e., on my own effort] with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Because the man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirit of the law does that mean he is unsaved?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Quote:

Those who can't understand Paul end up legalists!

The Apostle Peter was a legalist? :R

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God

I am speaking of the gospel & salvation....Paul is very clear

Yep, very clear. Clear to whom?

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Apply 1 John 3: 1-10 to the man of Romans 7. You will see that he has not been born of God. He is not abiding in Christ. He does not practice righteousness but by his own admission he practices evil. 1 John 3: 9 says plainly, "No one who is born of God practices sin." Therefore the man of Romans 7 cannot be one who has been born of God.

.... none of that really matters because of Romans 8:1, but first the context - Romans 7:25.

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! [That's his cry] So then, on the one hand I myself [i.e., on my own effort] with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Because the man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirit of the law does that mean he is unsaved?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

So, in your understanding, a person is in a saved condition even though

(1) Christ is not abiding in Him.

(2) He is not abiding in Christ.

(3) He is practicing evil, or sin.

(4) He is living according to the flesh.

(5) He is not led by the Spirit.

(6) He is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

(7) He is a slave to sin and free in regard to righteousness.

(8) He doesn't have a faith-based relationship with Christ.

Is such a person in a saved condition in your understanding?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

.... none of that really matters because of Romans 8:1, but first the context - Romans 7:25.

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! [That's his cry'] So then, on the one hand I myself [i.e., on my own effort] with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Because the man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirit of the law does that mean he is unsaved?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

So, in your understanding, a person is in a saved condition even though?

John, what does Romans 8:1 state?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Apply 1 John 3: 1-10 to the man of Romans 7. You will see that he has not been born of God. He is not abiding in Christ. He does not practice righteousness but by his own admission he practices evil. 1 John 3: 9 says plainly, "No one who is born of God practices sin." Therefore the man of Romans 7 cannot be one who has been born of God.

.... none of that really matters because of Romans 8:1, but first the context - Romans 7:25.

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! [That's his cry] So then, on the one hand I myself [i.e., on my own effort] with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Because the man of Romans 7 is failing to live up to the spirit of the law does that mean he is unsaved?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

He is lost & is still under condemnation because the man of Rom 7 is, #1. still "carnal, sold under sin," 7:14, #2. still a slave to sin, following what sin tells him to do, 7:15-20. #3. Powerless to do good because he is indwelt by sin and not the Spirit, 7:21-23. #4. If he is already saved, why does he cry out, "Who will deliver me from this body of death? 7:24

The saved man of Rom 6 & 8 is:

#1. Ex-slave of sin, 6:17

#2. Set free from sin, 6:18

#3. Has become slave of righteousness & holiness, 6:19

#4. Slave of God, 6:22

"No one can serve 2 masters." Jesus. No in between.

#5. He walks after the Spirit and not the flesh, 8:4

#6. Indwelt by the Spirit, not sin, 8:9

#7. Sin remains in the believer, BUT it does not reign, 6:11-14

#8. While sin remains, by the Spirit he puts to death the deeds of the body, 8:13.

#9. Because of the indwelling Spirit, he is being "conformed to the image of His Son, 8:29

Gerry

[Robert]

Romans 8:1 is not a description of the man of Romans 7: 14-24.

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [by faith is inferred]. [Why no condemnation?] 2 For the law of the Spirit [the power of the Holy Spirit] [where?, in the believer? No...] in Christ Jesus has set me [context: the man of Roman's 7] free from the law of sin and of death."

"In Christ" the law of sin (my sinful nature) and death has been defeated. This cannot refer to the experience of the believer. Clearly Romans 8:1,2 is good news to the man of Romans 7. Legalists, on the other hand, will hate it because it deprives them of their so-called glory.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The issue isn't perfection...it's honesty. If I am a sinner I will acknowledge known sin. If not I am stating that I am sinless. Hence what really eventually causes me to be lost is self-righteousness...unbelief.

Of what good is honesty if I am only honest enough to acknowledge that I cheat on my wife, on Uncle Sam, on God, but do nothing to abandon a dishonest life?

Gerry

[Robert]

He is lost & is still under condemnation

Let's see,

I can take Gerry's word or I can take Paul's word...hmmmm? I think I'll go with Paul!

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[Robert]

Quote:

The issue isn't perfection...it's honesty. If I am a sinner I will acknowledge known sin. If not I am stating that I am sinless. Hence what really eventually causes me to be lost is self-righteousness...unbelief.

Of what good is honesty if I am only honest enough to acknowledge that I cheat on my wife, on Uncle Sam, on God, but do nothing to abandon a dishonest life?

Gerry

Let's not just stop there, Gerry!

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

[John317]

Robert, in order to show that evidence supports you, you really need to respond to the the specific points that Gerry and I have brought up which seem to show clearly that the man of Romans 7 is not in Christ.

Romans 8: 1 is no proof that the man described in Romans 7: 14-24 is in union with Christ. That's the point here. You quote Romans 8: 1 as if it proves that he is justified and saved, but he is not there yet.

Why not? Because there is no evidence in chapter 7 that he has put his faith in Christ as his Lord and Savior. If you see it there, what verse is it in?

[Robert]

Robert, in order to show that evidence supports you, you really need to respond to the the specific points that Gerry and I have brought up which seem to show clearly that the man of Romans 7 is not in Christ.

[Woody]

Quote:

she didn't practice sin-- that is, she did not deliberately and continually go against what she knew to be right

This is simply not true. She did not live up the the health reform that she preached . Through out her life she struggled with what she described as a sinful health habit.

This is not to diminish her as a prophet. She failed like all of us. We all practice sin. There is no excuse for doing wrong for the power to know God and to follow Him is available to us. Like Ellen White ... we do not always take the power available. And instead ... we over and over make the same wrong choices. And Like Ellen's sins .... we willfully and deliberately decide to not accept God's power ... or we would not sin period.

But Praise God ... He is still there for us. HE loves us and forgives us each time we repeat the same sin. We come to Him ... HE forgives ... over and over and over. God does not have a limit on the number of times we practice sin and have to come to Him for forgiveness. He doesn't sit there and say ... Whoops ... you come to me for this sin before ...

So, NO. I reject that kind of limitation of God.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN 3:17-- You quote Romans 8: 1 as if it proves that he is justified and saved, but he is not there yet.

Let me help you again:

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Notice that v. 25 comes at the end of his experience and his struggle that is described in vvs. 14-24. During the experience described in vvs. 14-24, the man of Romans 7 has not yet come to see Christ as the answer to his sin-problem.

His desperate condition fully comes to his mind in v. 24, and his answer in v. 25. It is obvious that in vvs. 14-24 he had not yet put his faith in Christ. At least there is evidence of of his having done so, and chapters 6 and 8 appear to prove that he had not.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Quote:

JOHN 3:17-- You quote Romans 8: 1 as if it proves that he is justified and saved, but he is not there yet.

Let me help you again:

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

It is obvious that in vvs. 14-24 he had not yet put his faith in Christ. At least there is evidence of of his having done so, and chapters 6 and 8 appear to prove that he had not.

It's not obvious! You see God's judges the heart...men (like yourself) judges the outside. Bottom line? Do not judge!

God says there's no condemnation to the one who hasn't learned to walk in the spirit. If that isn't true then there's no hope for you John because you aren't perfect in performance yourself. So stop judging....Take Christ at his word:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

[John317]

Quote:

she didn't practice sin-- that is, she did not deliberately and continually go against what she knew to be right

This is simply not true. She did not live up the the health reform that she preached . Through out her life she struggled with what she described as a sinful health habit.

This is not to diminish her as a prophet. She failed like all of us. We all practice sin. There is no excuse for doing wrong for the power to know God and to follow Him is available to us. Like Ellen White ... we do not always take the power available. And instead ... we over and over make the same wrong choices.

But Praise God ... He is still there for us. HE loves us and forgives us each time we repeat the same sin. We come to Him ... HE forgives ... over and over and over. God does not have a limit on the number of times we practice sin and have to come to Him for forgiveness. He doesn't sit there and say ... Whoops ... you come to me for this sin before ...

So, NO. I reject that kind of limited of God.

You have said many times that you practice sin and have no intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin. You have said you plan to continue the practice of willful sin until the day you die.

Where did Ellen White ever say this? Where has any Bible writer ever said this?

You appear to misunderstand the meaning and significance of the words, "willful," "deliberate," "practice," "intentional," etc. Practicing sin means that you do it on a regular basis, that sinning is a normal part of your life like eating or breathing. And doing it willfully means you sin because you deliberately choose to do it. If you say you do this and that everyone does it, you are contradicting the Bible in many places, such as 1 John 3: 1-10. It says very plainly that those who are born of God do not "practice sin." Are you saying that this is not true and that those who are born of God do indeed practice sin and cannot stop practicing sin?

[Robert]

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! .... There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Clearly the man of Romans 7 has his faith in the Lord. "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ OUR Lord"...That "our" includes him (the man of Romans 7).

He mentions himself again in the following:For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Paul' date=' a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God

I am speaking of the gospel & salvation....Paul is very clear [/quote']

Yep, very clear. Clear to whom?

Gerry

Seems it wasn't so clear to Peter.

[Woody]

Quote:

You have said many times that you practice sin and have no intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin.

This is a complete lie. Do not willfully impugn my character. I will again have to take this up with ADMIN. You have been previously warned about this. If you repeat these attacks on my character ... I will have to recommend that you be removed from Club Adventist.

This type of willful and repeated behaviour will not be tolerated. Please cease. Apparently you are not able to do as you preach for this is a repeated and willful act.

[Dr. Shane]

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [by faith is inferred].

What does John say?

1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

[John317]

Quote:

You have said many times that you practice sin and have no intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin.

This is a complete lie. Do not willfully impugn my character. I will again have to take this up with ADMIN. You have been previously warned about this. If you repeat these attacks on my character ... I will have to recommend that you be removed from Club Adventist.

This type of willful and repeated behaviour will not be tolerated. Please cease. Apparently you are not able to do as you preach for this is a repeated and willful act.

Your words: "Personally I sin and I sin willfully.

I make the choice to sin."

See Post #159132

Would you also like to see the words you said that you have no intention of ceasing to sin? You have said that you have no intention of using the power of God to stop sinning. You have said as much on this thread and on others as well as in PMs. If you no longer mean it and have changed your mind, that is fine, but don't deny you've said these things and accuse me of lying for saying you've said them.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [by faith is inferred].

What does John say?

1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

The words, sinneth not, mean that whoever abides in Christ does not practice sin.

The Amplified Version gives the sense:

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

[Planey]

Lao Tzu said that the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

However, if your journey travels in a circle you can take as many steps as you like without advancing at all, in any direction.

Following the posts on this (and many other threads) I feel I have taken many steps but have not advanced at all. I just become giddy and confused.

Graeme

[Woody]

Quote:

Your words: "Personally I sin and I sin willfully.

I make the choice to sin."

Nice try ... but you are still falsely accusing me. No you have lied.

Never have I said as you have accused ... that I ...

Quote:

have no intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin.

I sin just like you sin ... WILLFULLY. No one is putting a gun to my head when I sin. I make the choice to sin. So do YOU.

I do "stop" the practice of willful sinning ... EACH and every day ... I make that decision. I also make the decision to sin ... just as you do Jim.

So stop the lies. You have been repeatedly warned about this John317 ... So I have to demand that you stop this attack on me or I will have to bring it up with ADMIN again. This is your last warning.