Perfect Obedience

[Woody]

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Then you'll see that you ain't so perfect either. The law doesn't care if you are a serial rapist or if you just covet wealth...it condemns all sin

Thanks Rob. This is such an important concept and Biblical fact .... that we must understand fully. Sin IS sin. Praise God.

[John317]

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BTW, I believe that the last generation of Christians will perfectly reflect Christ

IF this is true as you interpret it ...

It is sad news for me because I had hoped that we might be in the last generation NOW. But since there ain't no perfect Christians out there now ... I have to conclude that we are not in the last generation.

Redwood, your first hunch is right. We could be the last generation. There is nothing keeping us from being the last generation except us. It's like the only thing keeping the Israelites who left Egypt from going into the Promised Land was themselves. God didn't keep them from going in because of his time-table but because of their rebellion. We're still here now for the same reason.

God isn't waiting for a certain year or hour for Jesus to come. He is waiting for the church to be ready. God's bride, the church, must "prepare herself" (Rev. 19: 7). She hasn't done it yet. When she does, the angels will cease to hold back the winds of strife, the events we know about will happen, and Christ will come in glory for His bride. Until then, it won't happen. But not because it can't happen; it's because the church is asleep and in rebellion, just like the children of Israel in the wilderness.

[Woody]

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God is love....There is no self...no self-seeking in God's love. Why are you not living that life?

Excellent question Rob. But I suspect that some will say they ARE living that life. That in itself is a sin. If only they knew. But either way ... I will look forward to the answer.

[Woody]

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He is waiting for the church to be ready.

But ... not of works ... but of the heart. For it is our heart that He desires.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What could be a better way to show that you renounce Christ than to willfully and deliberately and intentionally flout His revealed will?

God is love....There is no self...no self-seeking in God's love. Why are you not living that life?

The second table of the law is summed up thus: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Not love more, not less.

Gerry

[Woody]

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Sin is sin...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote:

"He who breaks one precept of the commandments of God is a transgressor of the whole law."--Letter 4, 1898. {2SM 337.1}

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"The priests interpreted God's requirements according to their own false and narrow standard. They presumed to make nice distinctions as to the comparative guilt of various sins, passing over some lightly, and treating others of perhaps less consequence as unpardonable." DA 616

[Woody]

All this talk of overcoming sin is fine. But we will not be ready for heaven until we SEE His face. Then we will become fit for heaven.

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Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge. ST, June 9, 1881 par. 21

[Gerr]

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The moment he renounces Christ, then he goes back under law. But no worries Gerry, he will be doing time in the big house so he'll have time to think about getting it right.

Are you saying that to choose sin deliberately, intentionally, and willfully, rebelliously flout the revealed will of God is actually renouncing Christ?

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You are so worried that someone might get in that doesn't measure up to your righteousness. Stop looking at other folks and look at yourself in the mirror. Then you'll see that you ain't so perfect either. The law doesn't care if you are a serial rapist or if you just covet wealth...it condemns all sin.

I have never set myself up as the standard of righteousness, so stop bearing false witness against me. I am only presenting what I understand the laws of the kingdom as I understand them.

Gerry

[Woody]

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"When Satan comes to tell you that you are a great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits. That which will help you is to look to His light. Acknowledge your sin, but tell the enemy that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and that you may be saved by His matchless love. 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus asked Simon a question in regard to two debtors. One owed his lord a small sum, and the other owed him a very large sum; but he forgave them both, and Christ asked Simon which debtor would love his lord most. Simon answered, "He to whom he forgave most." Luke 7:43. We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice.'"

STC 36

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

I think Gerry has a point, though, in that Heb. 10: 26 is related to deliberate and continual choosing of sin against Christ.

No, it's talking about premeditated apostasy. Rejecting the gospel....

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If persisted in, [known] practiced sin will eventually lead to a renunciation of Christ. Consider your own words:

A practiced sin is one that I refuse to repent of....A besetting sin is one that I keep repeating, but in my heart I hate that sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, it's talking about premeditated apostasy. Rejecting the gospel....

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If persisted in, [known'] practiced sin will eventually lead to a renunciation of Christ. Consider your own words:

A practiced sin is one that I refuse to repent of....A besetting sin is one that I keep repeating, but in my heart I hate that sin.

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"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. " AA 560

Redwood, have you studied the things Ellen White wrote about deliberate, conscious, willful practice of sin? Quote some of those, please.

Besetting is not the same as willful and deliberate.

Again, here's willful:

Quote:

willful |ˈwilfəl| (also wilful)

adjective

(of an immoral or illegal act or omission) intentional; deliberate : willful acts of damage.

• having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects : the pettish, willful side of him.

Now here is "besetting":

Quote:

beset |biˈset|

verb ( -setting ; past and past part. -set ) [ trans. ]

1 (of a problem or difficulty) trouble or threaten persistently : the social problems that beset the inner city | she was beset with self-doubt | [as adj. ] poverty is a besetting problem.

• surround and harass; assail on all sides : I was beset by clouds of flies.

See note at attack .

The man of Romans 7 has lots of besetting sins, sins that attack him. He is not going out deliberately and stubbornly after sin, hunting it down and wanting it. One hates it and the other loves it.

[Woody]

You just don't get it do you?

Have you been reading all of each of my posts ... or just snippets that you want to take out of context?

Let me also point out that as we have determined here on this tread ... sin is sin.

IOWs ... it really doesn't matter what kind of sin you are guilty of ... the Law finds that you are guilty unless you have to blood of Christ to cover you.

[Robert]

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BTW, I believe that the last generation of Christians will perfectly reflect Christ

IF this is true as you interpret it ...

It is sad news for me because I had hoped that we might be in the last generation NOW. But since there ain't no perfect Christians out there now ... I have to conclude that we are not in the last generation.

Bingo! Hence the remnant doesn't exist now.

[Robert]

praise God ... he doesn't have a limit on the number of times that we can come to Him and say we are sorry. And then he again accounts us as Righteous.

I have a problem with that last sentence. When we fall into sin (not to count that we are never measuring up) Christ still counts us righteous in Himself. Otherwise you have what Morris Venden called yo-yo salvation...i.e, you are saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved.

Actually the Bible teaches we are once saved always saved as long as our faith in Christ remains. But if one persistently and ulimately rejects his need of Christ that person is once lost forever lost. There's no coming back once you've completely hardened your heart. See Hebrews 6:4-6

4 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

You can see this better if I just quote verse 4 and 6:

"It is impossible for those who have once...shared in the Holy Spirit [experienced the new birth]...if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance."

[Robert]

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God is love....There is no self...no self-seeking in God's love. Why are you not living that life?

Excellent question Rob. But I suspect that some will say they ARE living that life. That in itself is a sin. If only they knew. But either way ... I will look forward to the answer.

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

[Robert]

The second table of the law is summed up thus: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Not love more, not less.

Gerry

Who is Jesus addressing in the command, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"? Sinners right? When did you start loving yourself - before or after conversion? Right, before. In fact the Bible tells us that all of us are "sinful at birth" [self-centered].

When you have some time, Doc, observe how small children interact. Young kids aren't yet converted...they haven't been born again. So all they know is sin. What are they doing that proves this?

If you ever happen to have a toy with you find some small children and give one a toy and watch what happens. Now be ready to run because the moms will hate you because you've made their little one's look bad.

But watch them: They will fight, bite, cry, scream and take fits...or whatever it takes, to get that toy. Why? Love of self! Hence by birth and nature we are born loving self. This is our natural condition.

So when Jesus tells us, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" He isn't commanding us to do what we already do - i.e., love ourselves. No, He is commanding us to redirect that self-love from ourselves and instead redirect it towards our neighbors. In other words we are to love our neighbors as we naturally, sinfully and selfishly love ourselves. Ellen White understood this, why can't you?

[olger]

Thanks for the testimony, Robert. It is encouraging.

olger

[Robert]

[John317]

You just don't get it do you?

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin[. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]....

8[but] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow believer in Christ).

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Have you been reading all of each of my posts ... or just snippets that you want to take out of context?

Let me also point out that as we have determined here on this tread ... sin is sin.

The above verses show clearly that there is a difference between deliberate, intentional, willful practice of sin and sin that is not deliberate and willful practice.

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IOWs ... it really doesn't matter what kind of sin you are guilty of ... the Law finds that you are guilty unless you have to blood of Christ to cover you.

"He who confesses and turns away from sin shall have mercy." "IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

[John317]

IOWs ... it really doesn't matter what kind of sin you are guilty of ... the Law finds that you are guilty unless you have to blood of Christ to cover you.

Of course. The issue, though, has to do with the deliberate, willful practicing of known sin. There is a definite difference.

Study well the following along with 1 John 3: 1-10:

Confession and Forgiveness

1. WHAT instruction is given concerning confession of sin?

"Speak unto the children of Israel, When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit, to do a trespass against the Lord, and that person be guilty; then shall they confess their sin which they have done." Num. 5:6,7.

2. How futile is it to attempt to hide sin from God?

"But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the Lord: and be sure your sin will find you out." Num. 32:23. "Thou hast set our iniquities before Thee, our secret sins in the light of Thy countenance." Ps. 90:8. "All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do." Heb. 4:13.

3. What promise is made to those who confess their sins?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9.

4. What different results attend the covering and the confessing of sins?

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Prov. 28:13.

5. How definite should we be in confessing our sins?

"And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing." Lev. 5:5.

NOTE.-"True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty."- "Steps to Christ," page 43.

6. How fully did Israel once acknowledge their wrong-doing?

"And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the Lord thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king." 1 Sam. 12:19.

7. When David confessed his sin, what did he say God did?

"I acknowledged my sin unto Thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and Thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin." Ps. 32:5.

8. Upon what did he rest his hope for forgiveness?

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy loving-kindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions." Ps. 51:1.

9. What is God ready to do for all who seek for forgiveness?

"For Thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee." Ps. 86:5.

10. What is the measure of the greatness of God's mercy?

"For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him." Ps. 103:11.

11. How fully does the Lord pardon when one repents?

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord. and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God. for He will abundantly pardon." Isa. 55:7.

12. What reason is given for God's readiness to forgive sin?

"Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He retaineth not His anger forever, because He delighteth in mercy." Micah 7:18. See Ps. 78:38.

13. Why does God manifest such mercy and long-suffering toward men?

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

14. What prayer did Moses offer in behalf of Israel?

"Pardon, I beseech Thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of Thy mercy, and as Thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now." Num. 14:19.

15. What reply did the Lord immediately make?

"And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word." Verse 20.

16. When the prodigal son, in the parable, repented and turned toward home, what did his father do?

"When he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him." Luke 15:20.

17. How did the father show his joy at his son's return?

"The father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: and bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found." Verses 22-24.

18. What is felt in heaven when a sinner repents?

"Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Verse 10.

19. What did Hezekiah say God had done with his sins?

"Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for Thou hast cast all my sins behind Thy back." Isa. 38:17.

20. How completely does God wish to separate sin from us?

"Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea." Micah 7 :19. "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us." Ps. 103:12.

21. How did the people respond to the preaching of John?

"Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea. and all the region roundabout Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan confessing their sins." Matt. 3:5,6.

22. How did some of the believers at Ephesus testify to the sincerity of the confession of their sins?

"And many that believed came, and confessed, and showed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver." Acts 19:18,19.

23. Through whom are repentance and forgiveness granted?

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:30,31.

24. What is the only unpardonable sin?

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt. 12:31,32.

NOTE.-As the Holy Spirit is the agent that convicts of sin, and brings the offer of pardon through the Word, the denial of the Spirit's work is the refusal of pardon. In other words, the only unpardonable sin is the sin which refuses to be pardoned.

25. Upon what basis has Christ taught us to ask forgiveness?

"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." Matt. 6:12.

26. What spirit must those cherish whom God forgives?

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Verses 14,15.

27. What exhortation is based on the fact that God has forgiven us?

"And be ye kind one to another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Eph. 4:32.

28. In what condition is one whose sins are forgiven?

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile." Ps. 32:1,2.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What could be a better way to show that you renounce Christ than to willfully and deliberately and intentionally flout His revealed will?

God is love....There is no self...no self-seeking in God's love. Why are you not living that life?

Non sequitor!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

It doesn't have to be a conscious decision such as saying, "I've thought about it, and today I am renouncing Jesus Christ." We can side with Satan even while we THINK we are still on the side of Christ.

Yes...and self-righteousness is the main way to do that. The average guy doesn't need Christ because after all, he is good to his family. He works hard...he loves his wife...he does this and that, but all he does without Christ is polluted with self and in the eyes of the law there's no difference between his self-love and murderer down the street. Sin is sin...

I claim no righteousness but the righteousness of Jesus, and you claim that is self-rightousness? I claim the power of Jesus through His Spirit to enable me to obey, and that is self-righteousness?

Gerry

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

BTW, I believe that the last generation of Christians will perfectly reflect Christ

IF this is true as you interpret it ...

It is sad news for me because I had hoped that we might be in the last generation NOW. But since there ain't no perfect Christians out there now ... I have to conclude that we are not in the last generation.

And so per your theology, there would never be a last generation because every believer will "choose sin," "deliberately deny God," and "willfully practice sin." IOW, if Christ is waiting for obedient people before He comes back, that would never hapen, right?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sin is sin...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote:

"He who breaks one precept of the commandments of God is a transgressor of the whole law."--Letter 4, 1898. {2SM 337.1}

Quote:

"The priests interpreted God's requirements according to their own false and narrow standard. They presumed to make nice distinctions as to the comparative guilt of various sins, passing over some lightly, and treating others of perhaps less consequence as unpardonable." DA 616

There is a sin not unto death. 1 Jn 5

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

"When Satan comes to tell you that you are a great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits. That which will help you is to look to His light. Acknowledge your sin, but tell the enemy that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and that you may be saved by His matchless love. 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus asked Simon a question in regard to two debtors. One owed his lord a small sum, and the other owed him a very large sum; but he forgave them both, and Christ asked Simon which debtor would love his lord most. Simon answered, "He to whom he forgave most." Luke 7:43. We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice.'"

STC 36

"Depart from me, you who PRACTICE lawlessness." Mt. 7:23 NKJ

Gerry