Perfect Obedience

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If I'm sitting in a bar drinking a beer and holding another man's hand and planning to go to his house in a few minutes, but I have a "desire to do right" and I "love God's law," that is not a sign that I am born of God, is it? If I am truly born again, I won't be in that bar in the first place.

Yes, as long as you are convinced that the homosexual lifestyle is sin [the law written on the mind] AND allow the Spirit to lead in this area, you won't be in that situation, but please don't tell me that it's impossible for you fall into this sin.

Of course it is not impossible for me to commit sin. It would be the height of foolishness and self-deception to think so.

It's interesting that you should put it that way, "fall into this sin." Falling into sin is much different from willfully planning and intending, or wanting, to sin. One is high-handed rebellion and choosing to do wrong even while one is free to choose the right, and the other is being tempted at a moment of weakness to commit sin which you don't consent to.

Quote:

Unless you are continuously walking in the Spirit your nature can deceive your mind into sin.

Of course. But if you're not walking continuously in the Spirit, you don't need to be deceived in order to sin. Without the Spirit, you want to sin. Therefore, apart from the Spirit, that is, when living in the flesh, it is an easy thing to sin. In fact, it is then the most natural thing in the world. It's only the Spirit that causes you to hate sin and love and obey what is right.

[olger]

People are encouraged by testimonies of grace and victory. I've seen hundreds of examples of this.

People are discouraged by stories of failure, and the suggestion that they can't do any different -- AFTER CONVERSION. I have seen many examples of this.

Psalm 40 tells us that sacrifice & offering is not what pleases God. It is when the body (each of us) offer ourselves as a living sacrifice.

To dwell on sin & failure is to prefer dead sacrifice over a living one.

John's testimony (317john) about God rescuing him from the pit (Psalm 40: 2-5) is very inspiring to me and others.

Morris Venden told me one time that the reason people aren't encouraged by such stories is that they are feeling guilty that they don't have that. I don't know if he was right or not..

The solution is to lay our regrets in the arms of Christ, and go forward. We have to let go of the past if we are to move forward.

olger

[Woody]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

If we sin ... we are willfully choosing to disobey our Saviour.

[Robert]

It's interesting that you should put it that way, "fall into this sin." Falling into sin is much different from willfully planning and intending, or wanting, to sin.

First let me get something straight - when I say "fall into to sin" I do not mean that before I sin that I was sinless in all areas of my life. The area that I feel the Spirit is zooming in on is in the area of sexuality immorality.

From early on (12 or so) I got involved with porn (Playboy and such). Even in my marriage there was porn. After I became and Adventist I still had a tremendous struggle. I would justify it then I would condemn it and so I went back and forth for years.

To this day I still have an inclination towards this sin, but the overwhelming addictiveness is not there. I know this much, thanks to porn (which feeds the sinful nature) my marriage has suffered tremendously. (BTW, we both viewed it. So it wasn't me sneaking around on the internet)

Yes, sexual sins are fun. They give you a huge ego...you know like "your the man", but in the end this sin cuts you to pieces. Personally, I don't want to be a slave to this sin. So that's where I am at. By the Spirit I can live above my nature's cravings for "the lust of the flesh".

For year I didn't see the relationship between my sexual sins and other sin that were enslaving me. Only in the past couple of years did I come to realize the relationship between these. They are listed in Gal chapter 5:

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality [adultery, fornication, etc], impurity and debauchery"

You might want to take note that when Paul speaks of the sins of the flesh he usually always first mentions sexual sins. Why? I firmly believe these sins prepare the way for others sins. Here are the other sins:

"idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

If I am a slave to sexual immorality eventually, if I practice this vise, I will make sex my god and turn my back on the living God.

If I am a slave to sexual immorality I am so because those women I involve myself with (physically and/or mentally) will entice me with their "witchcraft". Such is the power of a woman used of Satan and the flesh. A man doesn't stand a chance. BTW, Ellen White made this statement. I can't find it right now.

If I am a slave to sexual immorality I will start distrusting my spouse. This brings in dissensions, factions, which leads to envy, jealousy and for me "fits of rage." When I say "fits" I don't mean slam a door! No, I mean absolute hate...mean dog, murdering mad. I mean hate that is as black as midnight.

So...it is my firm belief (for I have experienced it) that the first place the Spirit starts, especially with men, is in the area of sexuality. If you indulge the flesh in these areas you will eventually experience bondage and hell on earth.

You see your flesh will present sin in the best light. In fact your flesh will lead you to believe that sexual immorality is not in fact sin. Porn, after all, was suppose to add "spice" to marriage, but in the end it added only "poison."

So do I love sin? No! My problem is this: If I live Christ's selfless life where I fully live for others only I will literally become homeless. I personally need a roof over my head and some food. So while I have made progress, by the Spirit, in certain areas of my life (and it's real important to grow) I am falling short of God's self-emptying love.

So then, I was a slave to sexual immorality. I didn't want to serve my desires, but in the end I served the flesh. And every time I served the flesh I ran to God. All the time I was a slave I was accepted in the Beloved. I didn't want to do these things, but I did them anyway. What was my problem? Was I unconverted? No! Was I practicing sin! No, because a practiced sin is one you know is sin and you refuse to repent of it.

So if you have accepted Christ, but you are struggling with the flesh and losing, there's no condemnation. Does that mean you should indulge the flesh? By no means. Why? If you persistently feed the flesh...if you justify known sin day after day, month after month, eventually your nature will pull you out of Christ. It will get you to renounce Christ.

You see if sin isn't sin then I'm not a sinner. That's self-righteousness. Everyone who is lost will be so because they justified sin and called sin, righteousness. If, in my eyes, sin is not sin then I don't need a Savior. No Savior, no heaven.

Rob

[Robert]

The solution is to lay our regrets in the arms of Christ, and go forward. We have to let go of the past if we are to move forward.olger

Phil 3:11 ...in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it [the resurrection], or have already become perfect [i.e, I fall short], but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are mature, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

[Robert]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

If we sin ... we are willfully choosing to disobey our Saviour.

1] Under law sin is sin. It doesn't matter why you sin, because sin is sin.

2] Under grace the one sin that will cause you to be lost is unbelief. Unbelief is essentially self-righteousness.

3] If I persistently feed my nature in areas I personally know to be sin, then I am making my nature stronger. The stronger my flesh becomes the more it makes me a slave. Eventually, if I condone and justify known sin, my flesh will cause me to reject Christ. Why? The flesh is anti-God...it comes from Satan's kingdom.

Many a time I struggled with porn. When I tried to resist I failed. Every time I failed, the wrong in it became blurred because sin is a deceiver.

For example (PG13 rating) my nature has deceived into viewing nude art. You know, black and white photos. Not distasteful. Now I was convinced porn was wrong...so it couldn't deceive me there. So it said, "A little nudity...a little beauty...after all God created women & their beauty...it's there for the looking."

Did my flesh leave it at the black and whites.? No...Why? It is self-seeking...it always wants more and more and more until you are viewing a couple fully engaged in sexual intercourse. That's the flesh....That's as far as I experienced the flesh, but it will take you further if your eyes aren't opened by God's Spirit. E.G, There's homosexuality...there's bestiality...on and on right down to the gutter. And so sexual sins has nothing to do with love. It's about slavery...domination...it degrades women to a piece of meat. Disgusting!

What's Satan's aim in all this? To pull you out of Christ. To get you so addicted to sin that you can't discriminate between truth and falsehood.

So while we are saved by grace alone our faith will reveal that the Spirit is working within us. But on the other hand we are falling short of God's highest ideal - seen in the life of Christ. Therefore in the end we will saved by Christ's dong and dying. But it should never be an excuse to indulge the flesh...to practice as a genuine lifestyle (no regrets) a life of known sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's interesting that you should put it that way, "fall into this sin." Falling into sin is much different from willfully planning and intending, or wanting, to sin.

First let me get something straight - when I say "fall into to sin" I do not mean that before I sin that I was sinless in all areas of my life. The area that I feel the Spirit is zooming in on is in the area of sexuality immorality.

From early on (12 or so) I got involved with porn (Playboy and such). Even in my marriage there was porn. After I became and Adventist I still had a tremendous struggle. I would justify it then I would condemn it and so I went back and forth for years.

To this day I still have an inclination towards this sin, but the overwhelming addictiveness is not there. I know this much, thanks to porn (which feeds the sinful nature) my marriage has suffered tremendously. (BTW, we both viewed it. So it wasn't me sneaking around on the internet)

Yes, sexual sins are fun. They give you a huge ego...you know like "your the man", but in the end this sin cuts you to pieces. Personally, I don't want to be a slave to this sin. So that's where I am at. By the Spirit I can live above my nature's cravings for "the lust of the flesh".

For year I didn't see the relationship between my sexual sins and other sin that were enslaving me. Only in the past couple of years did I come to realize the relationship between these. They are listed in Gal chapter 5:

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality [adultery, fornication, etc], impurity and debauchery"

You might want to take note that when Paul speaks of the sins of the flesh he usually always first mentions sexual sins. Why? I firmly believe these sins prepare the way for others sins. Here are the other sins:

"idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

If I am a slave to sexual immorality eventually, if I practice this vise, I will make sex my god and turn my back on the living God.

If I am a slave to sexual immorality I am so because those women I involve myself with (physically and/or mentally) will entice me with their "witchcraft". Such is the power of a woman used of Satan and the flesh. A man doesn't stand a chance. BTW, Ellen White made this statement. I can't find it right now.

If I am a slave to sexual immorality I will start distrusting my spouse. This brings in dissensions, factions, which leads to envy, jealousy and for me "fits of rage." When I say "fits" I don't mean slam a door! No, I mean absolute hate...mean dog, murdering mad. I mean hate that is as black as midnight.

So...it is my firm belief (for I have experienced it) that the first place the Spirit starts, especially with men, is in the area of sexuality. If you indulge the flesh in these areas you will eventually experience bondage and hell on earth.

You see your flesh will present sin in the best light. In fact your flesh will lead you to believe that sexual immorality is not in fact sin. Porn, after all, was suppose to add "spice" to marriage, but in the end it added only "poison."

So do I love sin? No!

Good post, Robert. I agree wholeheartedly. Praise God.

The difference between us is that, thank God, I no longer feel an inclination to that sin. But I realize that if I stopping walking in the Spirit, I would go back into practicing sins of all kinds, including that one.

Quote:

My problem is this: If I live Christ's selfless life where I fully live for others only I will literally become homeless. I personally need a roof over my head and some food. So while I have made progress, by the Spirit, in certain areas of my life (and it's real important to grow) I am falling short of God's self-emptying love.

I think you're misunderstanding what God expects us to do. God's requirements are not such that we would necessarily become homeless if we practice love toward others as He calls us to do. You are taking the verse about giving everything to the poor out of context. The context is what Jesus was trying to teach the young man to whom he spoke these words. If Jesus meant these words to be taken literally by every follower, you could expect that Peter, James, Paul, and John would have been homeless and penniless. But of course they weren't. There is no where else in the Bible where we are told that Jesus' followers must give everything away.

However, we've been down this road many times already. If you have studied this and have talked it over with good Bible students, yet still feel convicted of its truth, I would suggest that you go ahead and give everything away. "To him who knows to do right and does not do it, to him it is sin." "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

You are convicted that this is what God wants you to do. I'm not convicted of this. If I was, I would do it.

Quote:

So then, I was a slave to sexual immorality. I didn't want to serve my desires, but in the end I served the flesh. And every time I served the flesh I ran to God. All the time I was a slave I was accepted in the Beloved. I didn't want to do these things, but I did them anyway. What was my problem? Was I unconverted? No! Was I practicing sin! No, because a practiced sin is one you know is sin and you refuse to repent of it.

My understanding is that a practiced sin is a sin that becomes a normal, regular, routine thing, whether you repent of it or not. Any time you are not overcoming a temptation or sin, the sin is overcoming you. If I'm going to the bar day after day and week after week, it is a practiced sin, even if every time I go, I first get on my knees and ask God to forgive me for doing it. The fact that I am repenting of it doesn't mean it is no longer a practiced sin. It ceases to be a practiced sin when I stop doing it routinely and regularly.

Quote:

So if you have accepted Christ, but you are struggling with the flesh and losing, there's no condemnation. Does that mean you should indulge the flesh? By no means. Why? If you persistently feed the flesh...if you justify known sin day after day, month after month, eventually your nature will pull you out of Christ. It will get you to renounce Christ.

You see if sin isn't sin then I'm not a sinner. That's self-righteousness. Everyone who is lost will be so because they justified sin and called sin, righteousness. If, in my eyes, sin is not sin then I don't need a Savior. No Savior, no heaven.

Rob

I like what you say here. I think possibly you misunderstood something I said earlier. I did not mean to imply that "falling into sin" is not sin. It is definitely sin. But there is a difference in God's eyes between a rebellious, high-handed sin and the sin we fall into through weakness and temptation. In the former, we want to sin and we do it even though we are free to do otherwise; in the latter, we do not want to sin but find ourselves doing something we hate and we do not consent to. The man of Romans 7 is doing this latter kind of sin, not the former.

[Robert]

I no longer feel an inclination to that sin.

[John317]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

If we sin ... we are willfully choosing to disobey our Saviour.

Does it appear to you that the man of Romans 7 is "willfully choosing to disobey our Savior"? Is he stubbornly and purposely choosing to disobey-- or does he say that he cannot do otherwise? See verses 15, 19.

Why does he call himself wretched? (See. v. 24) Isn't it because he is a slave to sin (v. 23)-- that is, that he can't do what he wills to do but instead does what he hates? That being the case, how can we say that he is willfully sinning?

Read that chapter and please quote the verse that convinces you that this is the case.

Remember what "willful" means:

willful

c.1200, "strong-willed," from will (n.) + full. Willfully is late O.E. wilfullice "of one's own free will, voluntarily;" bad sense of "on purpose" is attested from c.1374.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Quote:

–adjective 1. deliberate, voluntary, or intentional: The coroner ruled the death willful murder.

2. unreasonably stubborn or headstrong; self-willed.

Also, wilful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1150–1200; ME; OE wilful willing. See will2, -ful]

—Related forms

will·ful·ly, adverb

will·ful·ness, noun

—Synonyms 1. volitional. 2. intransigent; contrary, refractory, pigheaded, inflexible, obdurate, adamant. Willful, headstrong, perverse, wayward refer to one who stubbornly insists upon doing as he or she pleases. Willful suggests a stubborn persistence in doing what one wishes, esp. in opposition to those whose wishes or commands ought to be respected or obeyed: that willful child who disregarded his parents' advice. One who is headstrong is often foolishly, and sometimes violently, self-willed: reckless and headstrong youths. The perverse person is unreasonably or obstinately intractable or contrary, often with the express intention of being disagreeable: perverse out of sheer spite. Wayward in this sense has the connotation of rash wrongheadedness that gets one into trouble: a reform school for wayward girls.

—Antonyms 2. obedient, tractable.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

[Robert]

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self)."

By the way, it's even in the church...even your local SDA church. Where you have self you have the world - even in the church.

E.G., If I pay tithe in order to get to heaven I am a pagan. If I do anything from a motive of fear or a pat on the back (reward), I am not reflecting agape. I am reflecting the world.....

When I was a legalist I looked down on SDAs who wore wedding rings...too much make up...or even some simple jewelry. I was told that these folks were bringing "the world into the church." But really the legalists were the worldlings. They were Pagans in Christian clothing.

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

If we sin ... we are willfully choosing to disobey our Saviour.

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26 NKJ

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self)."

By the way, it's even in the church...even your local SDA church. Where you have self you have the world - even in the church.

The church is still in the world and so are we. The visible church consists of both tares and wheat, as we've discussed before. So, it is only natural that what is in the world is also going to be found to a degree in the church as well.

The problem comes when the church as a whole likes it that way and is comfortable with things in that condition.

Jesus does not want us to be taken out of this world yet. While we are in the world, we can still be faithful Christians and associate with the people who are of the world. For instance, Christians can take part in those activities: commerce, education, technology, etc. Christians are to be the light of the world. You can't be a light if you leave or hide or refuse to have anything to do with the sinful world or the sinful people in it. You don't have to participate in its sin in order to associate with the people. Jesus is the best example of that.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

If we sin ... we are willfully choosing to disobey our Saviour.

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26 NKJ

Gerry

Gerry...there you go again! You are forcing Heb 10:26 to say what it does not. It isn't talking about breaking rules...it's talking about renouncing Christ.

[Gerr]

Quote:

".. a practiced sin is one you know is sin and you refuse to repent of it."

Would you please show Bible references for such a definition?

Quote:

So if you have accepted Christ, but you are struggling with the flesh and losing, there's no condemnation. Does that mean you should indulge the flesh? By no means. Why? If you persistently feed the flesh...if you justify known sin day after day, month after month, eventually your nature will pull you out of Christ. It will get you to renounce Christ.

Suppose a serial rapist (or killer, or whatever) becomes a believer. He is convinced that rape, murder or whatever is clearly wrong. But the flesh gets the best of him and goes back to raping, or killing, or whatever. Everytime he does whatever he does that he knows is wrong, he feels bad about it, repents of it, but keeps on doing it anyway because the flesh keeps winning.

Now, at what point does condemnation "eventually" kicks in? Rape or killing #5? #10# At #490 he is still sorry, but the flesh is still the victor. When does this "eventual" condemnation kick in?

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth' date=' there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26 NKJ

Gerry

Quote:

Gerry...there you go again! You are forcing Heb 10:26 to say what it does not. It isn't talking about breaking rules...it's talking about renouncing Christ.

I think Gerry has a point, though, in that Heb. 10: 26 is related to deliberate and continual choosing of sin against Christ. If persisted in, practiced sin will eventually lead to a renunciation of Christ. Consider your own words:

Quote:

... If you persistently feed the flesh...if you justify known sin day after day, month after month, eventually your nature will pull you out of Christ. It will get you to renounce Christ. [/quote']

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth' date=' there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26 NKJ

Gerry [/quote']

Gerry...there you go again! You are forcing Heb 10:26 to say what it does not. It isn't talking about breaking rules...it's talking about renouncing Christ.

I'm not aware of a "Robert's Rule". What could be a better way to show that you renounce Christ than to willfully and deliberately and intentionally flout His revealed will?

Remember the parable of the 2 sons?

Or, "..I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev 2:9 NKJ

Or, "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Rev 3:1

Gerry

[John317]

....

I'm not aware of a "Robert's Rule". What could be a better way to show that you renounce Christ than to willfully and deliberately and intentionally flout His revealed will?

Remember the parable of the 2 sons?

Or, "..I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev 2:9 NKJ

Or, "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Rev 3:1

Gerry

And of course people can renounce Christ without necessarily saying it in so many words. We can renounce him by our actions and by our lifestyle. It doesn't have to be a conscious decision such as saying, "I've thought about it, and today I am renouncing Jesus Christ." We can side with Satan even while we THINK we are still on the side of Christ.

[Robert]

For instance, Christians can take part in those activities: commerce, education, technology, etc. Christians are to be the light of the world..... Jesus is the best example of that.

But the principle behind all these things is "self". If you are part of the system you are part of the problem. Christ was never part of the system.

[Robert]

Would you please show Bible references for such a definition?

[Robert]

I think Gerry has a point, though, in that Heb. 10: 26 is related to deliberate and continual choosing of sin against Christ.

[Robert]

What could be a better way to show that you renounce Christ than to willfully and deliberately and intentionally flout His revealed will?

God is love....There is no self...no self-seeking in God's love. Why are you not living that life?

[Woody]

Quote:

You see if sin isn't sin then I'm not a sinner. That's self-righteousness. Everyone who is lost will be so because they justified sin and called sin, righteousness. If, in my eyes, sin is not sin then I don't need a Savior. No Savior, no heaven.

Thank you Robert for that testimony. I do appreciate it. What you personally have experienced is so true. And those who think there is an excuse for some sins will be sadly mistaken. Trying to say that sin isn't sin just because they claim it is not willful ... is a sad deception. It is like you say ... self righteousness. SAD.

We all have a full opportunity to know God and if we know Him ... we will not sin. Any sin that we commit could have been avoided if we only knew God as is our opportunity to know Him.

[Robert]

It doesn't have to be a conscious decision such as saying, "I've thought about it, and today I am renouncing Jesus Christ." We can side with Satan even while we THINK we are still on the side of Christ.

Yes...and self-righteousness is the main way to do that. The average guy doesn't need Christ because after all, he is good to his family. He works hard...he loves his wife...he does this and that, but all he does without Christ is polluted with self and in the eyes of the law there's no difference between his self-love and murderer down the street. Sin is sin...

[Woody]

Quote:

BTW, I believe that the last generation of Christians will perfectly reflect Christ

IF this is true as you interpret it ...

It is sad news for me because I had hoped that we might be in the last generation NOW. But since there ain't no perfect Christians out there now ... I have to conclude that we are not in the last generation.

[Woody]

Quote:

We can renounce him by our actions and by our lifestyle.

I agree with you on this John 317. I would go further and state that each of us do this all of our life. But praise God ... he doesn't have a limit on the number of times that we can come to Him and say we are sorry. And then he again accounts us as Righteous.