Ray Boltz is gay!

[darlene]

Probably transexual is a little bit beyond being gay because it also involves some adultery, etc. I would have a harder time accepting this because at some point it must go beyond what you are born with. Actually I'm not that up on this type of person.

[John317]

Another thing, this kind of slander towards another person should never be done by any of us; especially a website that is officially or unofficially using the Adventist name. We Adventists are not to judge people but to love them.

Dani

OK, that's a good point, but let's remember that Ray Boltz himself is the one who is saying he is gay. I'm not aware that any one is slandering him in that sense.

My main points haven't been centered on what Ray is doing or not doing, because I don't know him at all, except for what the article quotes him as saying. I just meant to pose a question about what the Adventist church should do when certain situations come up.

[aldona]

Quote:

One's sexual preference surely doesn't affect one's musical talent, does it?

Sometimes I think that (some?) gay people have an extra gift for music... there were certainly a lot of classical composers who leaned that way... of course, in those days it was not openly talked about, and there was always a "good reason" why someone never married and always seemed to be surrounded by male companions...

To those who are boycotting Ray Boltz music because of his sexual orientation: are you going to go through your classical collection and get rid of all the Tchaikovsky?

aldona

[John317]

Probably transexual is a little bit beyond being gay because it also involves some adultery, etc.

A transsexual is a person who, usually suffering from what has been diagnosed as gender dysphoria, is in the process of getting, or has gotten, surgery that changes his/her body. (Know what I mean?) It has nothing necessarily to do with having adultery.

[Peace]

It's different when it comes to sacred music. Young people look up to those who have impacted their lives spiritually especially through their music. It is a blow when they find out that their mentors have been hiding a secret such as this.

I don't think anyone is boycotting Ray Boltz' music. Some are disappointed, that's all.

[aldona]

The gay people in the classical music scene wrote sacred music too... some of it is so powerful it makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. (that written by straight people, too!)

Does their orientation make the spiritual content of the music less valid?

But maybe that's just me...I've never felt much as a result of conventional "religious" music, whether hymnbook hymns, gospel or praise & worship music - but put on a simple instrumental piece by one of the classical masters and I feel like I'm in the presence of God.

aldona

[Jeannieb43]

His music touched the lives of many. And it is now hard to listen to his music without this shadow in the background. There are people in the church I attend that are very upset. They feel cheated. I don't blame them.

Questions arise as to whether gays should participate in church services, etc.

Sorry if I offended you. It was not meant to be.

Worshiping in the same church with a gay person does not offend me. In fact, there are several gay persons among my own friends and they're some of the nicest persons I know.

But what does offend me, about this particular situation, is that Ray Boltz fell in love with, married, and produced several children with, a woman. He continued to maintain that heterosexual lifestyle for many years. What I can't figure out is WHY he went and ruined that peacefulness, shattered the family home, sent his wife out into the world to be all alone, and probably disillusioned his children... all because he no longer had the same feelings. He admitted he still loved his wife, but the passion was gone.

Now, from where I sit, there are lots of heterosexual couples in that same boat. Lots of couples grow old together while the passion dims -- but they stay together anyway. They don't expect the same passion as when they were first married.

So. He felt attracted to men. So what? -- Well, does that mean every time I pass a donut shop, I have to go in and buy one, and eat it??! No! I use self-control because though I'd like to have a donut, though I'm attracted to those sweet-smelling donuts, I choose not to indulge.

And further: Let me say from experience, many heterosexual people are forced into celibacy, either by death of their spouse, by divorce or other eventuality, but they don't become sexually loose in their behavior as a result. They realize that that part of their psyche does not have a proper outlet under the present situation, and they just accept it.

Just because he felt some "new" feelings, does not, IMHO, give him the right to break up a happy home therefor. And certainly, such an action should not be celebrated in music which is distributed and discussed and circulated to the world.

I love gay people. But I love them best when they choose not to hurt anyone else by their actions. It's all within their God-given power of choice.

[Gone Fishing]

One can never know what a person goes through in their life. I've only known a few gay friends through the years, but all of them had traumatic things that happened to them in their childhood. Therefore, when I hear of someone being gay, I pray for them.

Re: Being born gay & choices, I thought I'd share this interesting video. This is Dr. Julie Harren Hamilton, a Lic. Marriage and Family Therapist and Assistant Professor of Psychology at Palm Beach Atlantic University. I just happened to find this one day while I was suring the net. http://homosexuality101.com/

From Dr. Harren: "Committed to educating the church and the world on the origins of homosexuality, we believe that freedom is possible! Although the two largest schools of thought on the issue today are that individuals are either (1)born gay or (2)choose to be so, we advocate that both views are incorrect. Based on scientific and psychological research along with hundreds of testimonies from ex-gays and supporting therapists, we support a developmental origin."

[rush4hire]

This one was at the top of the list in a Youtube search.

Thank You - by Ray Boltz

[Gail]

Poor guy, I think he is just relieved to get it off his chest and be finally able to live honestly. God can work with him wherever he is. We all have SOMETHING that makes a struggle for us in this life.

Aldona said:

Quote:

Does their orientation make the spiritual content of the music less valid?

Over the years I have asked the very same question about church preachers and leaders who have fallen and the impact that knowledge might have on our perception of their work. It seems that forever after, people don't remember the work as much as that one fact that came out into the open.

Why is that?

[Dr. Shane]

We all have sins we struggle with. It is when we justify our sins that we really enter into dangerous territory. Homosexuality is a sin. Alcoholism is also a sin. The two have a lot in common. Gays and alcoholics both really battle with selfishness and self-centeredness.

As we grow closer to Christ we see more and more sins in our lives that we must overcome. When we justify those sins, we stubble on our spiritual growth.

[Gail]

Quote:

Gays and alcoholics both really battle with selfishness and self-centeredness.

Don't we all...

[darlene]

Thanks for posting "Thank You" Rush4hire. It's such a very wonderful song! Can't you just imagine being in heaven and having someone come up to you and says "thankyou for giving to the Lord, it's because of you that I'm here."

About 6 years ago I had a young man sing that song to a mother and her daughter who had lead our 5-6 Years camp meeting division for over 30 years. Everyone in the audience was so moved and these two leaders were so moved to have this young man say 'thank you' for the work they had so faithfully done.

That song touch hearts no matter who wrote it and even if they knew the person was gay, that should not affect the message now, should it?!

[rush4hire]

Christian singers really are a dime a dozen. The talented ones get paid quite a bit. Singing really is easy. Fighting against the Devil and resisting his temptations and overcoming sin, is very hard.

This guy's influence causes homosexuals to love their homosexuality and never want to give it up. I'm sure he's a hero in the gay community and much beloved. He will also cause strait guys to decide to become gay.

Singing and prayer are just sacrifices, and what's sacrifice without obedience?

[color:#BF0000]1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

...

1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Prov. 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.

Prov. 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination.

If God ever accepts the sacrifice of anyone that teaches people to break God's law, then He will have to apologize to Cain.

[Woody]

Question, more to ponder than to reply to:

What do we do as a church as we experience more and more Christians who are openly gay and want to stay that way and practice that lifestyle, expecting the church to change and accept that way of life as not sinful?

Could it be that we will also see many of the church members supporting those who are openly gay inside the church?

This is garbage.

Gays do not expect the 'church' to change and accept their way of life as not sinful. They do expect the church to accept THEM ... as sinners just like the rest of the church. We are ALL sinners.

And I would hope that "we will also see many of the church members supporting those who are openly gay inside the church". We need to support ALL sinners. Just because someone is gay doesn't mean that we shouldn't support and love them. Does the sin of being gay mean that we can't support THEM and love THEM ?

[Woody]

Another thing, this kind of slander towards another person should never be done by any of us; especially a website that is officially or unofficially using the Adventist name. We Adventists are not to judge people but to love them.

Dani

Thank you Dani. Well said and SO important.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Question, more to ponder than to reply to:

What do we do as a church as we experience more and more Christians who are openly gay and want to stay that way and practice that lifestyle, expecting the church to change and accept that way of life as not sinful?

Could it be that we will also see many of the church members supporting those who are openly gay inside the church?

This is garbage.

Gays do not expect the 'church' to change and accept their way of life as not sinful. They do expect the church to accept THEM ... as sinners just like the rest of the church. We are ALL sinners....

Not all gay people want the church to change, but there are many gays-- the entire Gay Liberation Movement and other gay organizations, including some INSIDE the SDA church-- who want all Christian churches to accept homosexuality as normal and not sinful. This is not a secret. They say these things openly. There are SDA gays who want this. I know them personally. Fritz Guy has met with them and written about it.

Ever heard of SDA Kinship? They are an SDA group of gays. They want to change the SDA church's view of homosexuality.

Here is some of what their site says:

Quote:

SDA Kinship believes the Bible does not condemn or even mention homosexuality as a sexual orientation. Ellen G. White does not parallel any of the Bible texts that are used to condemn homosexuals. Most of the anguish imposed upon God’s children who grow up as LGBTI has its roots in the misunderstanding of what the Bible says.

They are working to get the SDA church to change and accept homosexuality as OK with God.

It is one thing to say that you acknowledge those things as sins and are trying to stop them. It is something entirely different to say they are not sins and that you want to keep doing them and help others do the same.

This is happening now and has been happening since the 1980s. It is well documented.

[Woody]

Oh give me a break.

We are not suppose to let gays in the church because of a 'few' radicals that might want to change the church. The vast majority of gays just want to be loved and accepted by the church and us individually. I will not cast them out just because of a few radicals.

Sorry. No thanks.

[John317]

Oh give me a break.

We are not suppose to let gays in the church because of a 'few' radicals that might want to change the church. The vast majority of gays just want to be loved and accepted by the church and us individually. I will not cast them out just because of a few radicals.

Sorry. No thanks.

Did I say we should not let repentant gays in the church?

But should the church accept for baptism and membership those gays who say their homosexuality is OK and that they have no intention of overcoming and changing?

I am talking about the fact that there are gays who enter and want the church to recognize homosexuality as not sinful.

That is the issue here.

[Woody]

Quote:

Could it be that we will also see many of the church members supporting those who are openly gay inside the church?

Yes. We should love and support those who are gay and want to come to church. And yes ... if they wish to be baptized ... they should be baptized.

Can you tell me where it says in the Bible that they should not be?

[John317]

I am talking about gays are who are not repentant of homosexuality and want to continue living the homosexual lifestyle, including living with a sex partner.

I am not talking about whether we should love gays who come to SDA church and want Jesus in their lives. Gays who want to come to church and study and pray and worship should be encouraged to come and give their whole lives over to Christ. We should pray with them and for them.

That is not the issue.

I myself lived as a gay man for over 30 years and am a baptized member of the SDA Church. But I would not have been baptized if I had been saying I was glad to be gay and wanted to keep living that way.

The question has to do with gays who have no intention of changing or repenting.

Should we baptize all the other people who are practicing the sins listed in 1 Cor. 6: 9-10?

How about baptizing practicing, unrepentant thieves? Or murderers? Or adulterers?

1 Cor. 6: 9-10 puts all these sins together in the same list and says people who practice them will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Nightingale]

This is garbage????????

The question is not whether we should support and love homosexuals, but whether those who are practicing homosexuality should be baptised into the church.

What is the purpose of baptism?

Romans 6:3,4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.

Baptism is a public testimony of a previous change of life and linking one's life with Christ.

Repent and be baptised. Acts 2:28. Baptism always follows repentance. We all have to repent whatever our sins, but turning from our sins is included in repentance. We would want to pray for and with those and invite them to turn from their sins.

[Gail]

When a person decides to follow Jesus, what is his/her first identity? That of a Christian

Does that have any bearing on how a person would view him/herself?

Does that have a bearing on how we view others who bear the name?

[John317]

.....Repent and be baptised. Acts 2:28. Baptism always follows repentance. We all have to repent whatever our sins, but turning from our sins is included in repentance. We would want to pray for and with those and invite them to turn from their sins.

Exactly right, and I fully agree.

The problem today is that for the last 30+ years, the idea has been gaining ground in Christian churches that practicing homosexuality is not sin.

It is the Bible against the popular views of the society.

Are we as a church strong enough to stand up for an unpopular truth taught in the Word of God?

One day the Sabbath will be even more unpopular than it is today. I believe that what we do with regard to the issue of homosexuality is an indicator of how strong our stand will be in support of the Sabbath and of those who obey God on that issue.

Satan is so clever and subtle-- if he can get us to compromise the truth and the gospel in one area, he will get us to compromise it in other areas.

[phkrause]

I agree with what you said redwood about supporting all sinners no matter what that sin is. But I also agree with the statement made by john317. I see this on all the talk shows, and even in churches that we should accept this because it really is not a sin.

pk