Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Of course we all have sinned. And we all fall short of God's glory, too. That means we all fail to come up to God's glorious ideal. Thank you John317. Finally some rational thinking from that side of the isle. There is a difference between saying "I am a sinner and I don't want to go one committing these sins. God forgive me. I know homosexuality is a sin, that God doesn't want me doing those sins any more, and with his power and grace, I choose to overcome it." That is far different than saying, "I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality. I am gay and am attracted to men. I enjoy it and have no intention of changing with or without God's power. There's nothing wrong with it." Do you see the difference? One is confessing his sins and the other is saying it is not sinful. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin. They believe it is OK to have homosexual partners. Ok....so you have them in the church...and what is gonna happen in the church at this point? May I suggest that there will be some interaction' date=' and some fellowshiping....And the Holy Spirit will hopefully be able to talk to this person. and the conflict begins...They fight withthe Holy Spirit, and you are not in there getting in the way of the punches...right? Originally Posted By: John317 It is different if someone repents of sin and wants God to help them overcome sin. But today we have many people who have no plan to stop their sins but want to be accepted IN their sins. They do not plan to be faithful to God. They think that their sins make no difference. They do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. [/quote'] If you say that they have to REPENT before they get to come to church, I would like to suggest that you will not get many converts. Some good point here Neil. I think our good friend John317 does not feel that gays can get over their sin with the power of God. Or he believes that they have to be first cast out so that they can do it without the support of the church. A do it yourself religion. Then after you have done it yourself ... then you are welcome back into the fold. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Neil D Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 So what? What business is it of yours to see the difference? Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin. They believe it is OK to have homosexual partners. Ok....so you have them in the church...and what is gonna happen in the church at this point? May I suggest that there will be some interaction' date=' and some fellowshiping....And the Holy Spirit will hopefully be able to talk to this person. and the conflict begins...They fight withthe Holy Spirit, and you are not in there getting in the way of the punches...right? Originally Posted By: John317 It is different if someone repents of sin and wants God to help them overcome sin. But today we have many people who have no plan to stop their sins but want to be accepted IN their sins. They do not plan to be faithful to God. They think that their sins make no difference. They do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. [/quote'] If you say that they have to REPENT before they get to come to church, I would like to suggest that you will not get many converts. I am not talking about whether they ought to be allowed in the church. I am talking about whether they should be baptized and accepted into full membership while they are in homosexual relationships and do not want or intend to change. Remember that I am gay myself. I came out of 30+ years of that. I am talking about wanting to stay homosexual and acting in that lifestyle and at the same time wanting to be a pastor or elder or active member in the church. WHILE INTENDING TO STAY WITH A LOVER . John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Thank you John317. Finally some rational thinking from that side of the isle.[/quote'] There is a difference between saying "I am a sinner and I don't want to go one committing these sins. God forgive me. I know homosexuality is a sin, that God doesn't want me doing those sins any more, and with his power and grace, I choose to overcome it." That is far different than saying, "I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality. I am gay and am attracted to men. I enjoy it and have no intention of changing with or without God's power. There's nothing wrong with it." Do you see the difference? One is confessing his sins and the other is saying it is not sinful. And both are invited to my church. It simply does not matter. Well ... it just means that they have all the more need to be in my church. You seem to place some type of qualifications for someone to need Christ and Christian fellowship. But no. Jesus says "Come as you are". And he did not make a qualification against gays as you do. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 So what? What business is it of yours to see the difference? The church has a right and responsibility to know who are members and what their beliefs are and whether they are ready for baptism. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Neil D So what? What business is it of yours to see the difference? The church has a right and responsibility to know who are members and what their beliefs are and whether they are ready for baptism. From what you have told us about baptism ... I don't think any of us would be 'ready' vs. the scriptures that say ... 'come as you are'. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 There is a difference between saying "I am a sinner and I don't want to go one committing these sins. God forgive me. I know homosexuality is a sin, that God doesn't want me doing those sins any more, and with his power and grace, I choose to overcome it." That is far different than saying, "I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality. I am gay and am attracted to men. I enjoy it and have no intention of changing with or without God's power. There's nothing wrong with it." Do you see the difference? One is confessing his sins and the other is saying it is not sinful. [/quote'] Quote: And both are invited to my church. It simply does not matter. Well ... it just means that they have all the more need to be in my church. You seem to place some type of qualifications for someone to need Christ and Christian fellowship. But no. Jesus says "Come as you are". And he did not make a qualification against gays as you do. Am I talking about being invited to the church? No. I am talking about people being baptized and accepted into full membership while they are openly and defiantly doing the things in 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10. I am not talking about people going to church to worship. I am talking about people being baptized and accepted into membership in the Seventh-day Adventist church. And also pastoring while practicing homosexuality. There is no question that God loves gay people. But love means telling people the truth, not telling them a lie and telling them that homosexuality is OK and that they can be saved while practicing it. To tell them that is a flat contradiction of the Bible. It is not showing love. On the contrary. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Neil D So what? What business is it of yours to see the difference? The church has a right and responsibility to know who are members and what their beliefs are and whether they are ready for baptism. In actual practice ... this is not done. Usually the pastor tells the candidates to show up Sabbath morning and the Pastor baptizes them. Afterwards he asks for a vote and they are accepted into membership. But most pastors do not ask permission to baptize candidates. He only asks permission to accept them into membership. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Neil D Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Neil D So what? What business is it of yours to see the difference? The church has a right and responsibility to know who are members and what their beliefs are and whether they are ready for baptism. But they will tell you when they are ready for baptism....As I have said, you don't want to get into the way when they are being tutured by the Holy Spirit. And it may be that who ever is studying with them may have to say that they are not ready for baptism and that they are going to have to work on a few things. But, the whole church does not need to know EVERY detail regarding their lives. Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Quote: John317: "There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin." So, when you say entering into a church ... you don't mean entering into ... you mean pastoring or being an elder ... or being an active member? Am I understanding you better? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The church has a right and responsibility to know who are members and what their beliefs are and whether they are ready for baptism. But they will tell you when they are ready for baptism....As I have said' date=' you don't want to get into the way when they are being tutured by the Holy Spirit. And it may be that who ever is studying with them may have to say that they are not ready for baptism and that they are going to have to work on a few things. But, the whole church does not need to know EVERY detail regarding their lives.[/quote'] That is not the point I am making. I am talking about the person preparing them for baptism. Let us say you are the pastor and you have a candidate who tells you he is gay. You find out that he is living with another man and he tells you that he believes it's OK with God. Do you go ahead and baptize him at that point? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 After baptism there is a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit to help us better understand truth and to abide in truth. If we fully understood all about what is sin and what is not sin ... and had total victory over all that we understood ... Then why is there given a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit? After all ... we would already be PERFECT. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Neil D Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 That is not the point I am making. I am talking about the person preparing them for baptism. Let us say you are the pastor and you have a candidate who tells you he is gay. You find out that he is living with another man and he tells you that he believes it's OK with God. Do you go ahead and baptize him at that point? I don't. nor do I recommend him for baptism. Instead I point out where he differs with accepted church beliefs...and where the bible differs with his beliefs.... The problem that I see is that you are so gun-ho on knowing every detail of this person's life....it's impractical... People change....even if this person became gay after he became an adventist, there is still room to grow.... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Quote: There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin. So, when you say entering into a church ... you don't mean entering into ... you mean pastoring or being an elder ... or being an active member? Am I understanding you better? Yes, not just going through the door and sitting down. I hope he would be welcomed warmly. I know I was. I am not talking about being loved and accepted in that way. I am talking about people who decide they don't want to stop those sins and yet want to be baptized and join the church. I went through baptism while living with my boyfriend who would have become my husband if we hadn't gone to the Adventist evangelistic series. But it was very plain that we had no intention of continuing to live that way. What I am finding hard to believe is that now I am hearing Adventists say there was no problem, that I could have continued in my relationship with him and still been baptized and accepted into fellowship as a member of the church. I am finding it incredible. Either the church is not the same as it was when I joined or this Forum has a lot of people in it who are not typical SDA. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 That is not the point I am making. I am talking about the person preparing them for baptism. Let us say you are the pastor and you have a candidate who tells you he is gay. You find out that he is living with another man and he tells you that he believes it's OK with God. Do you go ahead and baptize him at that point? I don't. nor do I recommend him for baptism. Instead I point out where he differs with accepted church beliefs...and where the bible differs with his beliefs.... The problem that I see is that you are so gun-ho on knowing every detail of this person's life....it's impractical... People change....even if this person became gay after he became an adventist, there is still room to grow.... Where in the world are you getting that idea? I never said any such thing. Copy and paste where I gave that impression. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Quote: they don't want to stop those sins and yet want to be baptized and join the church. None of us John effectively want to stop our sins. If we did ... we would not sin for there is no excuse for sin. But no ... we battle with sin because of SELF. We are selfish. Those who don't have a clear understanding of what sin is or who don't yet have victory over all sin .... DO need to be baptized. But if they do not agree with the 28 Fundamentals ... then they should not be accepted into membership in the church. That is why we vote for membership but not for baptism. We all have differences in what we believe as far as what is sin. Some think coffee drinking is sin. Some do not. But, the criteria for membership into the SDA church is the 28 fundamentals. The criteria for baptism is a desire to find out what is sin and to get to Know the Christ who you have determined is your Saviour. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 That is not the point I am making. I am talking about the person preparing them for baptism. Let us say you are the pastor and you have a candidate who tells you he is gay. You find out that he is living with another man and he tells you that he believes it's OK with God. Do you go ahead and baptize him at that point? I don't. nor do I recommend him for baptism. Instead I point out where he differs with accepted church beliefs...and where the bible differs with his beliefs.... The problem that I see is that you are so gun-ho on knowing every detail of this person's life....it's impractical... People change....even if this person became gay after he became an adventist, there is still room to grow.... I agree. Gettin into someone's bedroom is just goin to far. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Amelia Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 *tacking on Seems people get confused with church membership making a Christian. That's not the way it works. Every denomination has the right to define how/when a person is fit for membership and baptism. This has absolutely nothing to do with being a Christian. Christianity has no membership rules other than accepting Jesus as out savior. Any gay, lesbian, bi, tran, straight, crooked, single, double or more has the ability to become a Christian without anyone knowing about it but them and God. If a denomination does not want practising gays as members, so be it. There are many churches out there who would welcome them with open arms. As to the idea of many gays wanting to worship and be baptised as practising partners or even practising non-partners AND believing it is ok??? Well, I personally knew a Episcopalian priest who presided over one such church. In fact the whole congregation was gay. What I personally believe about it? Doesn't matter. Just as it doesn't matter what any of you out there think about it. We are all casting judgements upon their heads while our sins have been written in the sand. Who is it that has the right to judge? Who is it who has the right to wash away the sins? How long will it take for many of us to control our own personal sins? For way too many of us it could take til the very end! Even so Lord Jesus, come and take us home. <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Neil D I don't. nor do I recommend him for baptism. Instead I point out where he differs with accepted church beliefs...and where the bible differs with his beliefs.... The problem that I see is that you are so gun-ho on knowing every detail of this person's life....it's impractical... People change....even if this person became gay after he became an adventist' date=' there is still room to grow....[/quote'] Where in the world are you getting that idea? I never said any such thing. Copy and paste where I gave that impression. Yes, there certainly is room to grow. I agree. But they won't grow if they are given the impression or even told straightforwardly that the practice of homosexuality is fine or not sinful. That is my whole point here. I struggled a losing battle with homosexuality for almost 30+ years. I know what spiritual struggle is. I know it can be lost if we act or talk as if there is nothing wrong with it. 3 1/2 years ago I came close to giving up and concluding that I could not overcome or change. Part of the problem was that when I went to several different SDA ministers and even an Adventist psychologist, I was basically told that I would just have to accept it and that it was not sinful. That is not good news. But that is what I got from Adventist ministers. Fortunately, however, there were other Adventists who were faithful to God and the Bible, and these never stopped praying. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 *tacking on Seems people get confused with church membership making a Christian. That's not the way it works. Every denomination has the right to define how/when a person is fit for membership and baptism. This has absolutely nothing to do with being a Christian. Christianity has no membership rules other than accepting Jesus as out savior. Any gay, lesbian, bi, tran, straight, crooked, single, double or more has the ability to become a Christian without anyone knowing about it but them and God. If a denomination does not want practising gays as members, so be it. There are many churches out there who would welcome them with open arms. As to the idea of many gays wanting to worship and be baptised as practising partners or even practising non-partners AND believing it is ok??? Well, I personally knew a Episcopalian priest who presided over one such church. In fact the whole congregation was gay. What I personally believe about it? Doesn't matter. Just as it doesn't matter what any of you out there think about it. We are all casting judgements upon their heads while our sins have been written in the sand. Who is it that has the right to judge? Who is it who has the right to wash away the sins? How long will it take for many of us to control our own personal sins? For way too many of us it could take til the very end! Even so Lord Jesus, come and take us home. Thanks Amelia. We needed someone to come by and put it so perfectly. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 ... As to the idea of many gays wanting to worship and be baptised as practising partners or even practising non-partners AND believing it is ok??? Well, I personally knew a Episcopalian priest who presided over one such church. In fact the whole congregation was gay. What I personally believe about it? Doesn't matter. Just as it doesn't matter what any of you out there think about it. We are all casting judgements upon their heads while our sins have been written in the sand. Who is it that has the right to judge? Who is it who has the right to wash away the sins? How long will it take for many of us to control our own personal sins? For way too many of us it could take til the very end! Even so Lord Jesus, come and take us home. Here's the question that we must face as a church, though; Does the church still believe that the practice of homosexuality is wrong? I take it that you don't think there is anything necessarily sinful about it. But again, I am not talking about people who want to control their sins or overcome or stop them. I am talking about those who love their sins and have no intention of giving them up. They intend to keep sinning. Take, for instance, 1 Cor. 6: 9-10. As a church, do we believe some of those things are no longer sins and that those who practice them will indeed inherit the kingdom of God? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Peace Posted September 19, 2008 Author Posted September 19, 2008 Redwood, your dog is driving me nuts. Does he ever park?
Woody Posted September 19, 2008 Posted September 19, 2008 Tell me where your grass is and I will let him park there. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted September 19, 2008 Moderators Posted September 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 That is not the point I am making. I am talking about the person preparing them for baptism. Let us say you are the pastor and you have a candidate who tells you he is gay. You find out that he is living with another man and he tells you that he believes it's OK with God. Do you go ahead and baptize him at that point? I don't. nor do I recommend him for baptism. Instead I point out where he differs with accepted church beliefs...and where the bible differs with his beliefs.... OK, you and I are in agreement here. Whew! LOL Quote: The problem that I see is that you are so gun-ho on knowing every detail of this person's life....it's impractical... People change....even if this person became gay after he became an adventist, there is still room to grow.... No, if I gave that impression, I certainly never intended to. I really would be interested in knowing what I said that made you think this, because I am interested in communicating clearly. I wish you would do me the favor of going through my messages and letting me know where I went wrong and communicated that notion. I'll apologize if I did that. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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