Ray Boltz is gay!

[darlene]

The practise of homosexuality is a sin. However, it is the homosexual that needs to be accepted and loved. From what I have been reading here most of us can accept that. It is the practise that we do not accept.

[phkrause]

good post darlene

pk

[John317]

Very true.

When I and my friend decided at a Quiet Hour evangelistic series to give our lives to Christ, no one had to tell us God wanted us to stop practicing the sins of homosexuality. We knew it from studying the Bible ourselves. My friend and I had been going to the gay church, Metropolitan Community Church. He was Roman Catholic. Yet, despite the fact that the MCC taught us that our lifestyle was OK with God, I did not even have to tell him that God wanted him to change that aspect of his life. He knew it himself because of the clear teaching of the Bible.

We found out that a whole congregation of Adventists had been praying for both him and me for over 2 years!

But what would have happened if they hadn't been praying? What if L.E. Tucker and Del Delker had told us or given us the impression that homosexuality was not a sin? Would that have been loving?

[Woody]

I agree with what you said redwood about supporting all sinners no matter what that sin is. But I also agree with the statement made by john317. I see this on all the talk shows, and even in churches that we should accept this because it really is not a sin.

pk

The point is that we all sin.

To exclude one group of sinners over another is not right. We are called to love ALL sinners. So to say that we should not 'support' them is wrong. Do we 'support' the sin? No. Sin is Sin. Homosexuality is sin. The vast majority of SDAs would never consider removing Homosexuality from a list of sins. No. That is not the issue. The issue is do we baptise them? Do we love and 'support' them? Do we welcome in our church as members?

To the above questions ... I clearly say YES.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I agree with what you said redwood about supporting all sinners no matter what that sin is. But I also agree with the statement made by john317. I see this on all the talk shows, and even in churches that we should accept this because it really is not a sin.

pk

The point is that we all sin.

To exclude one group of sinners over another is not right. We are called to love ALL sinners. So to say that we should not 'support' them is wrong. Do we 'support' the sin? No. Sin is Sin. Homosexuality is sin. The vast majority of SDAs would never consider removing Homosexuality from a list of sins. No. That is not the issue. The issue is do we baptise them? Do we love and 'support' them? Do we welcome in our church as members?

To the above questions ... I clearly say YES.

Here is the essential question: should gays who want to keep being a practicing homosexual be baptized and accepted into full membership?

Let us suppose that I am a gay man and I come to the church and I tell the pastor I want to be baptized as I am and without any change in my relationship with my husband. Let's further say that I bring my husband to church and we sit together there. When anyone asks us about our relationship, we admit that we are gay and we say that homosexuality is not sin. In your view, should the Adventist pastor baptize me?

[Woody]

Not all situations are as narrow as you indicate. If you want to speak that narrow ... you should specify it rather then have such gross generalization as when you first started this issue. It sets the wrong tone and promotes hate of homosexuals.

[John317]

Should gays who do not want to change but want to keep practicing the gay lifestyle be baptized in the church?

I say no. What say you?

[Woody]

Should gays who do not want to change but want to keep practicing the gay lifestyle be baptized in the church?

I say no. What say you?

Never heard of anything like that. It is a non-issue. Why would they want to join our church? Our churches are full of those who would judge and condemn those who wanted to change. But those who didn't want to change would have a terrible time. I would counsel those gays against joining our church in that situation. Not to mention that I just don't ever see it happening. Non issue.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Should gays who do not want to change but want to keep practicing the gay lifestyle be baptized in the church?

I say no. What say you?

Never heard of anything like that. It is a non-issue. Why would they want to join our church? Our churches are full of those who would judge and condemn those who wanted to change. But those who didn't want to change would have a terrible time. I would counsel those gays against joining our church in that situation. Not to mention that I just don't ever see it happening. Non issue.

Speaks for itself.

[Woody]

John. My wife and I don't happen to believe it is a sin to drink coffee. I am willing to preach that. Ellen White and our church DOES believe that it is. Should I not be allowed to be a member? Where does one draw the line? I don't see the belief about gays in our fundamentals. DO you? I think it is important to be gentle and allow people to grow into our doctrines. Baptism is just the beginning of understanding and walking in Christ. Don't rush the Holy Spirit.

I would also point out that in the early church and in some places even now ... they allow people with multiple wives to be baptized. Are you suggesting that they should have not baptized those who were 'living in sin' in a heterosexual way? Do you know better than the disciples?

[Parade Orange]

Years ago- my lover brought me tickets to see a Christmas Concert with Twila Paris, Ray Boltz and Sandie Pattie for my 30 something Birthday!

WoooHooo!

It was in San Jose ,California.

My skin crawled in the arena parking lot as I realized we were with a bunch of christians who would tar and feather us if found out we were a gay couple attending with them.

I acted real butch so no one would know.

My gaydar didnt go off when Ray hit the stage. We were in the nose bleeding section....maybe if I was closer..

I understand what Ray meant when he said He feels closer to GOD cause He dont loathe himself anymore.

There is a deep christian, Holy Spiritual, Biblical TRUTH that the article brings out.

In order to deal with sin it has to come out in the LIGHT!

not stay hidden.

Some christians would rather act like everything is fine and no problem exists- THE FAMILY IS FINE, THE CHURCH IS FINE... that is what Laodecia opperates on- hence many comments that reflect that here!!!

The sin came out and hopefully and prayfully God can continue working on His heart.

[rush4hire]

we all sin

This very simple phrase is not found anywhere in the Bible or anywhere in all of Ellen White's writings.

[Woody]

Nice joke.

[Parade Orange]

If we say we have not sinned- we make God a liar and there is no truth in us.

I found that in a little old book I read every day

[Neil D]

Since when has a flaming gay came into your church and said that they intend to continue coming to church to worship God?

Yeah, I didn't think so either.....

So, what are we afraid of?

A Lesbian comes to church and says that she is lesbian and wants to become bisexual and hopefully straight....What do you do?

I know one thing in this scenerio....I know nothing....on how to change/convince/this person .....

Ok, so a gay man comes into church...only no one knows he's gay. He doesn't say anything for a couple of years. The church becomes aquainted with him...one day during a church social at a campfire, during a testimony meeting, he declares that he's gay. And he declares that he has loved all the church members so much he desires to be with them and continue to fellowship with them.

Has that happened to your church? What do you do then?

These are senerios that could happen....What is your reaction to these scenerios?

[Woody]

Good one Parade. And just think of how many stones we could legally throw if we are without sin!!! Wouldn't that be fun?

[John317]

Of course we all have sinned. And we all fall short of God's glory, too. That means we all fail to come up to God's glorious ideal.

[Neil D]

Of course we all have sinned. And we all fall short of God's glory, too. That means we all fail to come up to God's glorious ideal.

And your point is.....?

[Woody]

Neil. The only answer I know of is that we are told to love one another. That is the only way to win someone to Christ. And you can't love someone by telling them they are too sinful to have in church.

[Woody]

Of course we all have sinned. And we all fall short of God's glory, too. That means we all fail to come up to God's glorious ideal.

Thank you John317. Finally some rational thinking from that side of the isle.

[John317]

Neil. The only answer I know of is that we are told to love one another. That is the only way to win someone to Christ. And you can't love someone by telling them they are too sinful to have in church.

There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin. They believe it is OK to have homosexual partners.

It is different if someone repents of sin and wants God to help them overcome sin. But today we have many people who have no plan to stop their sins but want to be accepted IN their sins. They do not plan to be faithful to God. They think that their sins make no difference. They do not believe that homosexuality is a sin.

[Parade Orange]

Ray Boltz struggled with this sin all his life. He prayed and cried for years for God to take it away.

He went into ministry and married and had children trying to do everything he knew to be right.

Strong armed,white knuckling, pulling himself by his bootstraps.

Searching,praying,counseling,hoping

But he would not share

He couldnt be vunerable

He cant be transparent

Mortified by FEAR.

He hears what christians say about others.

He sees the contempt.

He has seen others ostracised.

He must keep it hidden.

But it grew in the dark.

His thoughts got darker and he could not voice outloud so he can hear himself and have others to bounce off of.

No it just became his own internal dialogue.

Finally like all festering sores it all had to seep out or explode!

And for once in his life he decided to not to hate himself for something he did not wish upon his young child soul.

He accepted it and breathed for the first time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Of course we all have sinned. And we all fall short of God's glory, too. That means we all fail to come up to God's glorious ideal.

And your point is.....?

My point is that we all have sinned. And we all fall short of God's glory, too. That means we all fail to come up to God's glorious ideal. 1 John 1 and 2 gives us the answer as to what to do about our sins.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Neil. The only answer I know of is that we are told to love one another. That is the only way to win someone to Christ. And you can't love someone by telling them they are too sinful to have in church.

There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin. They believe it is OK to have homosexual partners.

It is different if someone repents of sin and wants God to help them overcome sin. But today we have many people who have no plan to stop their sins but want to be accepted IN their sins. They do not plan to be faithful to God. They think that their sins make no difference.

I guess we could try to determine and find all sinners who are not serious enough about getting rid of their sins. We could then kick them out. We could put you in charge as Global Moderator of this task. Do you think that would be effective? Or are you just suggesting that we only do it for those with gay issues? If so ... why do you single out gays? Is there some kind of personal vendetta here?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Neil. The only answer I know of is that we are told to love one another. That is the only way to win someone to Christ. And you can't love someone by telling them they are too sinful to have in church.

There are gays who enter into the Christian churches and have no intention of changing or overcoming the sin of homosexuality because they do not believe it is a sin. They believe it is OK to have homosexual partners.