Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[Gerr]

Quote:

"So long as Satan reigns [i.e., as long as he is "the god of this world"], we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [habitual, repetitious sins]

I see that you are still using Robert's Dictionary to define words. Webster's on "beset" - trouble, harass, to set upon: assail, to hem in: surround; "besetting" - constantly present, attacking: obsessive.

Yes, there are many besetting sins that constantly assail, harass, attack, hem in, and surround the believer, but the Good News is:

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[color:red]NO ONE who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and HABITUALLY] commits (practices) sin. NO ONE who [HABITUALLY] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an EXPERIENTIAL acquaintance with Him]. 1 Jn 3:6 Amp

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to overcome; so long as life shall last [i.e., until we die], [size:14pt]there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained

As long as we are in this flesh, these besetting sins will continue to strive for attention, true. But again, the Good News is that those who

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[color:red]Walk by the Spirit, ... will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Gal 5:16 ESV.

Yes, they do overcome in the name of Jesus.

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And they conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even to death. Rev 12:11 ESV

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So what does she mean by obedience? It can be obedience to the law because we still have besetting sins...we still fall short of God's agape as seen in the life of Jesus.

Rob

Falling short of the glory of God is NOT = continuous sinning!!!

Note:

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[color:red]Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives. Amp.

and come short of the glory - or "praise"

of God - that is "have failed to earn His approbation", cf Jn 12:43 ["for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God."] Faucet/Brown commentary

When a sinner believes God heart, mind, and soul, he receives divine approval, and counts it to him as righteousness, Gen 15:6 ESV

Gerry

[John317]

"So long as Satan reigns [i.e., as long as he is "the god of this world"], we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [habitual, repetitious sins] to overcome; so long as life shall last [i.e., until we die], there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [i.e., to perfection].....

I see a problem with your definition of besetting sins as "habitual and repetitious," as if we cannot overcome them. God gives us victories if we really want them. They are besetting sins because they often tempt us and harass us, but we don't have to feel that we must fall when we are tempted.

Quote:

beset |biˈset|

verb ( -setting ; past and past part. -set ) [ trans. ]

1 (of a problem or difficulty) trouble or threaten persistently : the social problems that beset the inner city | she was beset with self-doubt | [as adj. ] poverty is a besetting problem.

• surround and harass; assail on all sides : I was beset by clouds of flies.

See note at attack .

• hem in; enclose : the ship was beset by ice.

2 ( be beset with) archaic be covered or studded with : blades of grass beset with glistening drops of dew.

ORIGIN Old English besettan, from be- [around] + settan (see set 1 ).

You see that besetting sins are not sins that we are constantly committing but rather they are sins that we are persistently tempted to do. They trouble and threaten us persistently or very often. They surround us and harass us. But God protects us and empowers us so they don't harm us if we stay close to Him. See 1 John 5:18; also 3: 1-10. It is time we take these verses to mean exactly what they say.

For instance, a ship beset by ice is not a ship that is sinking. It is threatened by the ice.

Jack Sequeira himself says that the Holy Spirit gives us power to overcome every temptation. There really is power in the blood!! It is not just a theory but a real power. Paul said, "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes."

[John317]

- A female resembles a male who has already been circumcised.

Whoever said this? Maybe it means in some spiritual sense, because there's nothing in reality to support this idea. Nothing in the Bible, either, that I know of.

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(this is also somehow related to the idea that the female parent determines "Jewishness", i.e. if you are born to a Jewish woman, then you are a Jew.)

Any comments?

Does this help--

http://www.jewfaq.org/women.htm

[Robert]

Falling short of the glory of God is NOT = continuous sinning!!!

Here's where we part company! You see falling short as making a misstep. Once the misstep is repented of you apparently assume that you are in full compliance with the law until the next misstep. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Since you perverted that last EGW statement I'll give you another one that you cant' mess up:

He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

If I ever reached a place where I am in full compliance with both the letter and the spirit of the law then I could claim to be "holy" and "sinless" at that moment! But, according to EGW, then I would be deceived.

Further more you need to look at Romans 3:23

"All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present continuous tense) of the glory of God."

And Moses describes God's glory as His "goodness". Look it up!

EGW describes this glory in the following:

“It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" [i.e., is not self-seeking] has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.” DA 20

That love you and I are never reaching....You are coming up short. And it's not a small deviation! EGW calls it a "marked" difference.

So yes, the true believer will mature...will grow, but that growth fails to fully reflect Christ' agape love. Therefore that difference must be "continuous sinning".

[John317]

.....You are coming up short. And it's not a small deviation! EGW calls it a "marked" difference.

So yes, the true believer will mature...will grow, but that growth fails to fully reflect Christ' agape love. Therefore that difference must be "continuous sinning".

Notice that when it comes to believers, the Bible's emphasis is on continuous doing of righteousness and victory. See Romans 6: 13 and the whole of Rom. 8.

2 Peter 2: 14 says that the wicked are the ones who "cannot cease sinning." It says clearly that believers can cease to sin. 1 John 3: 1-10. (This doesn't mean they never do wrong or fall short.) So it seems to me you see no difference between the righteous and the wicked. For you, it seems, everyone is equally wicked. There are no commandment-keepers; there are only commandment-breakers.

I see this view as unBiblical.

Here's the Apostle John-- (Notice the practice of truth, the walking in the light, the being cleansed from all sin.)

5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Paul asks if we should continue in sin after we know Christ, and his answer is a very loud, strong denial that we should go on sinning. That is proof that Paul taught that with the Holy Spirit, we can cease to sin. (Again, not saying we never sin or fall.)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

.....You are coming up short. And it's not a small deviation! EGW calls it a "marked" difference.

So yes, the true believer will mature...will grow, but that growth fails to fully reflect Christ' agape love. Therefore that difference must be "continuous sinning".

I see this view as unBiblical.

I see your view as self-righteous! You can't see the marked contrast between your love and Christ's self-emptying love. You apparently think you measure up or that there are times in your life when you are without sin....

[Robert]

Paul asks if we should continue in sin after we know Christ, and his answer is a very loud, strong denial that we should go on sinning.

[Gerr]

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Since you perverted that last EGW statement I'll give you another one that you cant' mess up:

He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

If I ever reached a place where I am in full compliance with both the letter and the spirit of the law then I could claim to be "holy" and "sinless" at that moment! But, according to EGW, then I would be deceived.

You have been using this passage to club people quite inappropriately. With the above quote you make it appear as though EGW is saying that nobody is holy - that nobody keeps the law, that believers keep on sinning ad infinitum. Well, you conveniently omitted some things she wrote BEFORE and AFTER the quote. Who was she referring to? Here is what you left out. The BEFORE:

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for Him can never dwell in the heart of the SELF-RIGHTEOUS. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, 'I am holy, I am sinless,' is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, 'I am Christ.' To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself cannot understand the meaning of redemption. (Here's the AFTER that you left out.) To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has ANY union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness, therefore they are selfish. Their souls are spotted and defiled. Yet with sin-stained lips they say, 'I am holy. Jesus teaches me that the law is a yoke of bondage. Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace. RH Sept 25 1900 Self-exaltation.

So who is she talking about? Who is boldly teaching that obedience to the law is legalism and therefore has fallen away from grace?

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Further more you need to look at Romans 3:23

"All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present continuous tense) of the glory of God."

And Moses describes God's glory as His "goodness". Look it up!

Glory - 1. abundance, wealth treasure and hence HONOR (Ps 49:12); glory (Gen 31:1; Mt 4:8 2) Honor, dignity (1 Ki 3:13; Heb 2:7 3) splendor, brightness, majesty (Gen 45:13; Isa 4:5 4) the glorious moral attributes, the infinite perfections of God (Isa 40:5; Ac 7:2; Ro 1:23) Jesus is the "brightness of the Father's glory" (Heb 1:3; Jn 1:14) 5) the bliss of heaven (Rom 2:7,10; 5:2) 6) The phrase "give glory to God" (Jos 7:19; Je 13:16) is a Hebrew idiom meaning "Confess your sins." The words of the Jews to the blind man, "Give God the praise (glory), Jn 9:24 are an adjuration to confess.... Easton Bible Dict.

So the word "glory" has a wide range of meaning, of which "goodness" is only one among many. In Jn 12:43, the Apostle John speaks of those who "loved the GLORY that comes from man more than the GLORY that comes from God."

Now then, to whom does God bestow glory i.e. honor, praise, approbation? Not to those who have sinned according to Rom 3:23.

"BLESSED is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night." Ps 1:1,2 ESV

"BLESSED are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the LORD!

BLESSED are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways!" Ps 119:1-3 ESV.

"And he (Abraham) believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." Gen 15:6 ESV.

To fall short of the glory of God CANNOT POSSIBLY mean continuous, willful sinning. If it did, Paul would be contradicting the witness of the HS through John who wrote: [color:red]"NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN HIM KEEPS ON SINNING...." Jn 3:6 ESV

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I see this view as unBiblical. [/quote']

I see your view as self-righteous! You can't see the marked contrast between your love and Christ's self-emptying love. You apparently think you measure up or that there are times in your life when you are without sin....

Have I ever said that I measure up or that I am without sin? That is your putting words in my mouth, but I forgive you.

All I am saying is that God empowers us so that we can overcome every temptation to sin. Jack Sequeira says the same thing. The gospel is more powerful than the darkness. That is what I am saying. You and I do not have to commit sin.

Being without sin is something totally different. Being without sin is sinless, and that's not something I have ever claimed.

I have only been saying exactly what is in the following verses. Are they also self-righteous? --

1 SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2May grace (God's favor) and peace (which is [a]perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).

4 By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.

5 For this very reason, adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence),

6And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety),

7And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love.

8 For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

9 For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [spiritually] shortsighted, seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.

11Thus there will be richly and abundantly provided for you entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

AND IF YOU DON'T DO THIS?

[John317]

[John317]

(Here's the AFTER that you [Robert] left out.) To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has ANY union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples.. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant. There are many who do not see themselves in the light of the law of God. They do not loathe selfishness, therefore they are selfish. Their souls are spotted and defiled. Yet with sin-stained lips they say, 'I am holy. Jesus teaches me that the law is a yoke of bondage. Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace. RH Sept 25 1900 Self-exaltation.

So who is she talking about? Who is boldly teaching that obedience to the law is legalism and therefore has fallen away from grace?

I can't believe you did that, Rob. I don't want to believe it. Tell me it ain't so!

The very next sentence says clearly that "to be redeemed means to cease from sin," and it speaks of those in rebellion against the law of God not having any union with Christ.

That's a sentence that makes it crystal clear that "ceasing to sin" does not mean being without sin, or being sinless.

Why would you stop the quote right at that point?

[Robert]

(Here's the AFTER that you [Robert] left out.) To be redeemed means to cease from sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

(Here's the AFTER that you [Robert] left out.) To be redeemed means to cease from sin.

.

Originally Posted By: John

I can't believe you did that, Rob. I don't want to believe it. Tell me it ain't so!

Again, please remember that I don't consider her a measuring stick of truth, but I didn't realize that she contradicted herself. This quote was saved many years ago...I might have realized then. But anyway, let's see if I can undo the contradictions:

EGW: "To be redeemed means to cease from sin."

Well, that's not the primary reason. "Christ redeemed us from the law" because "cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them."

If I have been redeemed from sin in my experience, then I have a problem. I haven't ceased from sin. Yes, I've grown, but I haven't stopped sinning.....

This is proof that you don't understand what the Spirit of prophecy teaches. If you go to Jack Sequeira, he will tell you that you have a misunderstanding of this.

She is not saying that "ceasing from sin" means sinlessness. You have the same misunderstanding of the Bible's use of "keeping the commandments" or "obey the commandments." None of those things are to be understood as teaching righteousness by law-keeping or that people are without sin.

It sounds like you want people to accept your word over that of the Spirit of prophecy. Jack Sequeira quotes Ellen White thousands of times in his books. What does that say about his belief in Ellen White's authority?

[John317]

... Ellen is just ignorant if she disagrees with this. Paul is the NT theologian. His work can be used as a measuring stick of truth....

There's no contradiction between Ellen White and Saint Paul any more than there is between Peter and John or between Paul and James. There sometimes seems to be, but when we study further, we find there is none.

My suggestion is that you study Ellen White further and deeper. You have trouble with her because you immediately draw the conclusion that she is wrong unless she agrees with all of your favorite ideas.

[Robert]

This is proof that you don't understand ....

he will tell you that you have a misunderstanding of this....

She is not saying that "ceasing from sin" means sinlessness....

You have the same misunderstanding of the Bible's use of "keeping the commandments"

Well, you really do a good job of telling me I don't understand, but you do a terrible job of proving your point..... Sounds like you don't know yourself!

Rob

[Robert]

There's no contradiction between Ellen White and Saint Paul any more than there is between Peter and John or between Paul and James.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

There's no contradiction between Ellen White and Saint Paul any more than there is between Peter and John or between Paul and James.

John, there's no way that I am going to commit spiritual fornication and place Ellen White on par with the Bible. It isn't going to happen. It's very cultish at best!

No, you wouldn't do that with someone whom Jack Sequeira believes is a true prophet of God, but you will do it with a common, ordinary man who is no prophet and doesn't even claim to be a prophet.

I don't at all mind being called "cultish" if it is because I believe Ellen White was a true prophet and I accept what she said as authoritative.

You have no trouble quoting her when you like what she says, but the minute someone quotes something you don't like, then suddenly you talk about "spiritual fornication" and "cultism."

[Robert]

If you go to Jack Sequeira, he will tell you that you have a misunderstanding of this.

Biblical Definition of Sin

[John317]

I studied her for years....She does contradict herself, but that's okay because she,

1] Isn't infallible in matters of doctrine and

2] She certainly isn't the measuring stick of truth.

What you say here is true, but she was a true prophet of God, and as such, she deserves to be studied and respected. If you didn't quote her or say you believed in her, I wouldn't even bring her statements up to you. But your quoting her and accepting Jack Sequeira who quotes her makes me think you have some respect for what she taught and said. But frankly I am not sure how deep that is.

[Robert]

I don't at all mind being called "cultish" if it is because I believe Ellen White was a true prophet and I accept what she said as authoritative.

You have no trouble quoting her when you like what she says, but the minute someone quotes something you don't like, then suddenly you talk about "spiritual fornication" and "cultism."

You are a cult member because you make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth. This is heresy!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't at all mind being called "cultish" if it is because I believe Ellen White was a true prophet and I accept what she said as authoritative.

You have no trouble quoting her when you like what she says, but the minute someone quotes something you don't like, then suddenly you talk about "spiritual fornication" and "cultism."

You are a cult member because you make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth. This is heresy!

Does Jack Sequeira have a problem with the official statement of the doctrine of the SDA church regarding Ellen White?

Heresy in whose eyes? Who defines heresy?

There are Christians who believe the Sabbath is heresy. Others believe that teaching the sanctuary is heresy. Still others say that teaching the non-immorality of the soul is heresy.

Who cares.

[Robert]

your quoting her ...makes me think you have some respect for what she taught and said. But frankly I am not sure how deep that is.

I respect what is in line with the Bible, and especially Paul, but I do not respect her in areas where she ignorantly teaches a subtle form of legalism.

Did she ever call herself the measuring stick of truth? No! What did she say? Go to your Bible.....

[Robert]

Heresy in whose eyes? Who defines heresy?

In the eyes of most Christians....

The Jews, in the time of Christ, thought that they were all that....You know what happened!

I know for a fact that most traditional SDA look down their nostrils at Sunday keeping Christians. They look at them as ignorant Christians. Why? The same reasons the Jews thought they were better than the Gentiles.

Nothing has really changed!

ROb

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Heresy in whose eyes? Who defines heresy?

In the eyes of most Christians....

Would you have the SDA church, and Jack Sequeira, decide what is truth according to what "most Christians" consider "heresy"?

I study what other Christians believe and teach. I have a whole library of their books which I study. But that does not mean that "most Christians" are the measuring stick of what is truth and what is heresy.

For SDA, the measuring stick is first the Bible and second the Spirit of prophecy.

Here's our official doctrinal statement, which I am completely in agreement with:

Quote:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

If they believe this is heresy, then so be it. Some day they will say Sabbath keeping is heresy, and they will eventually even say that Sabbath keepers should be killed.

Whose side will you be on when that time comes? We're deciding now where we will be.

[Robert]

For SDA, the measuring stick is first the Bible and second the Spirit of prophecy.

To make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth is pure heresy. She herself states "the Bible and the Bible only"!