Robert Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 The day is holy. What does that mean? For one thing, we manifest our loyalty to God by keeping it holy as He told us to do. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2008 Moderators Posted October 15, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 In fact, refusal of any of the commandments of God (i.e., moral law) is a sin of unbelief NOW. Then you are lost, i.e., according to your own theology! It's been nice knowing you, John! How so? The law commands you to love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. There's no self-love and self-seeking in God's agape love. Since you are failing to fulfill God's law...i.e., God's will -you are under its curse. You have fallen from grace. Hence no resurrection for you....No mansions...no streets of gold....The gates are closed. John isn't allowed in for he isn't a doer of the law! Might you reconsider your theology? Yes, you might.... Am I refusing those commandments? No, I agree that I am falling short in those areas and in other areas of my life. So I follow through with sincere and honest repentance and confessions of sins, as 1 John 1: 9 and 2: 1,2 say. I pray that God will continue giving me greater grace and love for others. I cooperate with God in this. I do not refuse to acknowledge it or to say that I don't need to obey that commandment. I am not resisting it but I agree with God's diagnosis. The only solution is being in a faith-based, personal relationship with Christ, and as I do this, He continues to give me greater shares of His Spirit and to help me resist and overcomes sins that He graciously point out to me. He also gives me greater love for others. That is different from refusing to obey the commandments and refusing to acknowledge that disobedience to God in the matter of the Sabbath is a sin. That is refusing to confess sins and repent of them. Do you see the difference? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2008 Moderators Posted October 15, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 "Timing is everything!" What if God had come to Abraham before He promised a son though him and said, "You, and all the males above 12, must be circumcised. Failure to obey means that all who refuse will be lost!" Abraham would have said, "Huh...why? It makes no sense!" And, or course, he would have been right. Abraham was given this sign sometime later because he trusted, not in the promise of God, but in his own performance. Paul is clear on this one: Phil 3:2 ...beware of the false circumcision [from the Judaizers]; 3 we are the true circumcision [how so?] who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh [human performance - human works] Abraham was given the sign of circumcision as a reminder to place no confidence in the flesh [human performance]. In his case he did this by trying to help God produce the child of promise. SO if God would have requested this sign before Abraham performed his act of unbelief, Abraham would have been very confused to say the least. Again, timing is everything! Same with the Sabbath. Right now you place much emphasis on keeping the law in order to be saved (of course you deny this, but then you contradict yourself too). Essentially, what are you doing? You are trying to help God save you when you already have salvation "in Christ". This is an act of unbelief. When God calls his people out of Babylon (including from the SDA church), He will give them the Sabbath as a seal of having no confidence in works, but rather in the truth as it is "in Christ". But before He can do this He must restore the gospel! Quote
Woody Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Quote: All I am saying is that if we believe that faith releases us from obedience to the law of God, and if we practice that belief-- by disobeying God and not repenting of it-- we won't be saved. I would re-think this. You are saying we are saved by obedience and knowledge rather than by faith. Now if the Holy Spirit had convicted Rob that he should obey the commandments ... and he didn't ... then he would be headed down a dangerous path. But we do not all have the same knowledge. We do not have the same convictions. The Spirit works with us at different levels and stages. So, I am quite turned off by this type of legalistic statement. I pray you would re-consider it. It may be fine for you. But when you try to impose your beliefs on someone like Rob ... I would hope you would stop this kind of judgmental beliefs. Just my two cents worth. I happen to appreciate Rob. I see him as sincere. He has given his heart to God. He has accepted the free gift of salvation and thus is saved. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted October 15, 2008 Moderators Posted October 15, 2008 "When God calls his people out of Babylon (including from the SDA church), He will give them the Sabbath as a seal of having no confidence in works, but rather in the truth as it is "in Christ". But before He can do this He must restore the gospel! Do you believe that God is calling people out of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Is the SDA church Babylon, in your view? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 Am I refusing those commandments? No, I agree that I am falling short in those areas and in other areas of my life. So I follow through with sincere and honest repentance and ...[keep on loving myself]! [addition by Rob] John!!!!!! The law doesn't care if you admit you are falling short....It says...well, you should know by now! So yes, you are refusing to obey the law. You are continuing in iniquity. The law doesn't care if you are trying to obey....It demands action. It doesn't hand out partial credit....It doesn't forgive. Rob Quote
Woody Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Quote: A practiced sin is one that I am fully convinced of in my being through the Spirit of God. The Spirit is not leading me to be perfect, for I am already perfect "in Christ". The Spirit takes me where I am at in my own life experiences and prejudices and works to mature my life. All the time I have salvation full and complete. Thank you Rob. This is beautiful. It is what I've been trying to say but just didn't articulate it as well as you. God Bless .... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 Human reasoning...human emotions...human analogies... Stay with the facts. Quote
Robert Posted October 15, 2008 Author Posted October 15, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert "When God calls his people out of Babylon (including from the SDA church), He will give them the Sabbath as a seal of having no confidence in works, but rather in the truth as it is "in Christ". But before He can do this He must restore the gospel! Do you believe that God is calling people out of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Is the SDA church Babylon, in your view? In the future it is said, "Babylon is fallen"! Fallen from what? What does Babylon represent? Please, no traditional BS.... Rob Quote
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan That was never required in the OT or the NT. Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. Indeed - Abraham was Hebrew - his descendants were given that sign -- no gentile was commanded to do this in OT or NT. The Point remains. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan In Gen 3 God puts war between the seed of the woman and seed of serpent. in John 16 the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". The Romans 2 argument "they do instintively the things of the law" conveys that no human nor book instructs them but as Romans 2 points out at the end of the chapter - the work of the Holy Spirit is to perform the true spiritual circumcision which is of the heart. in Christ, Bob[/quote'] That's a very good point. It's clear, then, that the fact that the Gentiles knew the difference between right and wrong in terms of some sins, doesn't mean there is no need for preaching and further learning of the Word of God. http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post193070 Exactly -- we preach the Gospel not because God is weak - but because He is strong! in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Then you are lost, i.e., according to your own theology! It's been nice knowing you, John! Am I refusing those commandments? No, I agree that I am falling short in those areas and in other areas of my life. So I follow through with sincere and honest repentance and confessions of sins, as 1 John 1: 9 and 2: 1,2 say. [/quote'] Indeed as scripture says to obey is better than to sacrifice. The bottom line is that though some christians pray to the dead, worship bread, worship images, break Sabbath etc - we do not say "Christians do it -- so it must be ok". On the other hand we also do not say "Christians disregard God's Word on that point so God's Word must not matter". That point seems to get lost from time to time. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham' date=' “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. [/quote'] Indeed - Abraham was Hebrew - his descendants were given that sign -- no gentile was commanded to do this in OT or NT. Indeed - the redemption of the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage as connected to the Sabbath - is a sign given to the Jews and no gentile was commanded to do this in OT or NT. Quote
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you believe that God is calling people out of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Is the SDA church Babylon, in your view? [/quote'] In the future it is said, "Babylon is fallen"! Fallen from what? What does Babylon represent? Please, no traditional BS.... Rob Babylon is fallen because she has fully rejected and apostatized from the true gospel. This is still future. Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Indeed - the redemption of the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage as connected to the Sabbath - is a sign given to the Jews and no gentile was commanded to do this in OT or NT. I clearly recall that being said by B. Humble with great emphasis. Of what significance do you make of this? Why would God command a gentile to keep it under the Old Covenant? And why would God command them to keep it under the New? Is the Sabbath a part of the New Covenant? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. “What about Sabbath and Sunday?” You know, we talk of Sabbath as the seal of God, and we talk of Sunday as being the mark of the beast. There are some facts that we must be clear on. These two days represent two different systems. And we must be clear that those two systems are not yet clearly separating the world today. Let me explain what I mean. We have seen that righteousness by faith is God’s way of salvation. Righteousness by works is man’s way. Now, the Sabbath is not yet the seal of God and Sunday is not yet the mark of the beast because these two days have not as yet been linked with these two concepts. There’s still confusion. There are today many Sunday-keeping Christians who are resting in Christ. And there are Sabbath-keeping people who are resting in their works, too. So there is still confusion today. But when the Three Angels’ Message is clearly presented, and linked with these two days, then folks, then only will these two days represent two systems. So, firstly, please don’t ever accuse the Sunday-keeping people today of the mark of the beast. Secondly, please remember that those days simply represent a truth. It’s the truth that is at issue. But before the end comes, the Sabbath will be clearly linked with righteousness by faith (and we shall see that in a moment) and Sunday will clearly represent those who are resting in their own works. That is not yet true today. Today there is confusion. There is misunderstanding. [JS] Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 When God calls his people out of Babylon (including from the SDA church), He will give them the Sabbath as a seal of having no confidence in works, but rather in the truth as it is "in Christ". But before He can do this He must restore the gospel! Quote: JOHN3:17-- Do you believe that God is calling people out of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Is the SDA church Babylon, in your view? Quote: ROBERT-- In the future it is said, "Babylon is fallen"! Fallen from what?What does Babylon represent? Please, no traditional BS.... What if I were to tell you, "Please no Jack Sequeira BS"? Would that seem right to you? Quote: ROBERT-- Babylon is fallen because she has fully rejected and apostatized from the true gospel. This is still future. Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist church is a part of Babylon? What does Jack Sequeira believe about this? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Babylon is fallen because she has fully rejected and apostatized from the true gospel. This is still future. Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. It's true Babylon is fallen away from the true gospel. But it involves a lot more than that she thinks she can add to God's perfect redemption. That is only part of it. Babylon also seeks to change and even ignore God's law. Why is the leader of Babylon called in the Bible by the name, "the man of sin," or "the man of lawlessness"? Because he intends the change times and the law (Daniel 7:25). He encourages people to violate God's Ten Commandments, specifically that part of the law of God which has to do with time, the Sabbath. So the "man of sin" is out to make people think the commandments of God can be changed by the Church. He's persuaded over a billion people that it can be done. God raised up the SDA church to tell the world the truth about this, that the commandments of God can no more be changed than God Himself can change. I know that Jack Sequeira believes these things. Don't you? I am sure you once did, anyway. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit and only those are sealed who are obeying all of God's commandments, including the fourth. The ones who are lost are those who refuse to keep the Sabbath. You can only truly keep it if you have the Holy Spirit. It becomes the clear issue at that point but it is obvious that before that time, people must be made aware of the issues involved through study of the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. “What about Sabbath and Sunday?” You know, we talk of Sabbath as the seal of God, and we talk of Sunday as being the mark of the beast. There are some facts that we must be clear on. These two days represent two different systems. And we must be clear that those two systems are not yet clearly separating the world today. Let me explain what I mean. We have seen that righteousness by faith is God’s way of salvation. Righteousness by works is man’s way. Now, the Sabbath is not yet the seal of God and Sunday is not yet the mark of the beast because these two days have not as yet been linked with these two concepts. There’s still confusion. There are today many Sunday-keeping Christians who are resting in Christ. And there are Sabbath-keeping people who are resting in their works, too. So there is still confusion today. But when the Three Angels’ Message is clearly presented, and linked with these two days, then folks, then only will these two days represent two systems. So, firstly, please don’t ever accuse the Sunday-keeping people today of the mark of the beast. Secondly, please remember that those days simply represent a truth. It’s the truth that is at issue. But before the end comes, the Sabbath will be clearly linked with righteousness by faith (and we shall see that in a moment) and Sunday will clearly represent those who are resting in their own works. That is not yet true today. Today there is confusion. There is misunderstanding. [JS] Yes, I agree with Jack Sequeira on this. I have read this statement before several times, in his book on righteousness by faith in the SDA fundamental beliefs. Jack doesn't mean that Sabbath-breaking is not a sin. He means that Sunday keeping is not yet the mark of the beast. That is not a new concept, of course. I don't know of any Adventist who believes otherwise. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Babylon represents those who think that they can add to God's perfect redemption "in Christ Jesus." At that time seal of God and the mark or seal of the beast will become an issue. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit and only those are sealed who are obeying all of God's commandments, including the fourth. The ones who are lost are those who refuse to keep the Sabbath. You can only truly keep it if you have the Holy Spirit. It becomes the clear issue at that point but it is obvious that before that time, people must be made aware of the issues involved through study of the Bible. The end-time Sabbath will have nothing to do with the 4th commandment! You are so very confused. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The seal of God is the Holy Spirit and only those are sealed who are obeying all of God's commandments' date=' including the fourth. The ones who are lost are those who refuse to keep the Sabbath. You can only truly keep it if you have the Holy Spirit. It becomes the clear issue at that point but it is obvious that before that time, people must be made aware of the issues involved through study of the Bible. [/quote'] The end-time Sabbath will have nothing to do with the 4th commandment! You are so very confused. In order to say that, you have to reject the book of Revelation (12:17; 14:12) as well as everything the Spirit of prophecy says about it. If the law of God has nothing to do with it, why would anyone think it matters which day you keep holy? Apart from the commandments, why not just go right on keeping "the Lord's day"? IS THE SABBATH AND THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT A PART OF THE NEW COVENANT? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Indeed - the redemption of the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage as connected to the Sabbath - is a sign given to the Jews and no gentile was commanded to do this in OT or NT. Not quite "all" true. 1. In Is 66 we see that "ALL MANKIND" is commanded to observe the Sabbath - not just Jews -- no such "All mankind" statement for circumcision in OT or NT. So the point remains. 2. Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the MAKING of both in Gen 1-2:3 creation week and the observance of it by all mankind in Eden. -- no such "circumcision made for MANKIND" in all of scripture. So as I said -- the point remains about Sabbath having the universal scope of all mankind -- but not circumcision. Hence - 1Cor 7:19 "Neither is circumcision NOR uncircumcision ANYTHING but what matters is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS of God". For which we find NO counter "Neither are the commandments of God anything - but what matters is circumcision" in either OT or NT. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Indeed as scripture says to obey is better than to sacrifice. The bottom line is that though some christians pray to the dead, worship bread, worship images, break Sabbath etc - we do not say "Christians do it -- so it must be ok". On the other hand we also do not say "Christians disregard God's Word on that point so God's Word must not matter". That point seems to get lost from time to time. And this gets to the point that God makes repeatedly in the NT about His people keeing His commandments John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" There is no "joyfully ignoring the commandments of God by faith" in all of scripture to contradict these texts. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.