Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 ...So when the gospel is restored our faith will be fully developed. We will have confidence and glory only "in Christ Jesus". There will be no self-righteousness...no glorying in the flesh and as a seal God will give us the Sabbath. I believe this but it makes no sense to say that all of this is going to happen at some future, indeterminate time, so that it's of no importance whether we keep the Sabbath now or not. The gospel is being restored right now and has been in the process of being restored since about 1798. I think it's a mistake to consider any talk of obedience to Christ as "self-righteousness" or "legalism." To think this is to make Christ Himself into a legalist, because He spoke of keeping His and the Father's commandments out of faith and love. Quote: If you say, "No thanks" you are outwardly telling God that you are perfectly able to save yourself. That's the mark of the beast - a seal of self-righteousness. No one is able to save themselves. It is all of Christ. We are put into right relationship with God solely on the merits of His Son, through faith. We accept His grace and His Spirit as gifts. Then, from that time forward, we continue every day for the rest of our lives to walk with Him in the Spirit, in the same way that we received him at the beginning of our walk. As for the mark of the beast, people receive it when the false sabbath is enforced and people submit to it, obeying human tradition instead of God's law. All the issues will be made very plain at that time, and people will have a clear choice to make. People are preparing for that time now. Part of that preparation is learning about God's Sabbath and learning what it means to keep it. It means spending time with Him, getting to know Him and letting Him sanctify us as we grow in our faith-based relationship with Him. Quote: So the Sabbath will be the seal of God when the true gospel is restored and preached. And likewise the other seal, "the mark (or seal) of the beast" will also come into play. Remember, the signs don't save. What they point to is what saves! So the issues are future, just like Abraham's circumcision was future. No one has the "mark of the beast" (although there are plenty of legalistic folks). Likewise, no one has the seal of God for that too is future. The last part makes it sound like we can ignore the Sabbath for the time being, that it's all future. How will people know when the true gospel has been restored and preached? How will we know when the sealing is occurring? And why will anyone begin to keep the Sabbath on the seventh day when they've been taught that it doesn't matter which day anyone keeps? Remember that they've been told faith releases us from the Sabbath. Why then will they keep it at that point? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 ... As I mentioned previously ... I keep the Sabbath to almost a legalistic manner. But it is out of love and desire to stay close to Jesus. Not for legalistic reasons. That said ... I have to make an interesting observation ... I ... as with other SDAs ... keep the Sabbath 'because' I am saved. This is exactly the way the Bible presents it. God did not first give His law to Israel and then lead them out of slavery. Rather, God saved them so that they could keep His law. He does the same with us. He justifies us and frees us from the bondage of sin, and then He empowers us to obey His will through the Holy Spirit. That is why the Sabbath is a sign that it's the Lord who sanctifies us. Quote: Others currently keep the Sabbath in order to be saved. They believe that Faith plus Works = Salvation But usually ... both camps believe that in the end of time .... That Sabbath Keeping will = Salvation ... Faith + works is disaster as far as justification and salvation are concerned. The basis of our salvation is God's grace alone, received by faith. Please study the following very important paragraphs. They are all true. Quote: Let this point be fully settled in every mind: If we accept Christ as Redeemer, we must accept Him as a Ruler. We cannot have the assurance and perfect confiding trust in Christ as our Savior until we acknowledge Him as our King and are obedient to His commandments. Thus we evidence our allegiance to God. We have then the genuine ring in our faith, for it is a working faith. It works by love. F.W. 16. There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. F.W. 19. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 [Traditional] Seventh-day Adventist don't teach that "unless you keep the Sabbath you cannot be saved." Sure they do! You do, and I'll prove it: Quote: Obedience is the fruit of genuine faith in God. Our lives will tell if we truly believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as our Lord. And naturally, you include the Sabbath. So if I am not keeping the Sabbath then my faith must not be genuine. See, you do teach, "unless you keep the Sabbath you cannot be saved." If you are not keeping the Sabbath, and you know about the Sabbath and are under conviction by the Spirit that God wants you to keep it, then you need seek a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. That is the only solution and answer. It is the same with all of God's commandments. Would you say your faith is genuine if you are continually disobeying any of the other commandments in the moral law? How about the commandment to not steal? Would you say my faith is genuine if I am stealing? Or lying? What should I do? I should seek the Lord, repent and renew my relationship and faith in Him. That is the only thing that will make a real difference. So, yes, obedience to God is the fruit of genuine justification, and Jack Sequeira says the same thing. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 JOHN3:17-- Paul said, "What matters is keeping the commandments of God." 1 Cor. 7:19 Quote: ROBERT-- But this same Paul said that we are not under the jurisdiction of the law. We are really under the jurisdiction of the Spirit. And the Holy Spirit will lead us to walk in obedience to God. The Spirit will never lead us to disobey God's will. Since the Spirit is writing the law of God on our minds and hearts, don't you think the Holy Spirit will give us everything we need in order to fulfill that law? So we are not under the jurisdiction of the law in the same way the Jews were in the OT. We don't see the law as a set of exterior rules merely which we must obey as we would obey a task master. If we see God's law that way, we need to be born from above and ask God to give us a greater measure of His Holy Spirit. Love for God's law and a true desire to live it will be in our hearts and minds when we have it written as Heb. 8 and 10 describe it. Quote: ROBERT-- This same Paul said that the whole law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor as yourself. Nothing about the Sabbath....Nothing! That's because the Sabbath is a seal yet to be realized. We know the Sabbath is part of the New Covenant. If you love your neighbor, what commandment will you intentionally practice breaking? If you truly love God with your whole heart and mind, which commandment will you want to break? None of them, I suspect. Does God have to list every commandment in order for us to obey Him? If we know of a commandment of God, why would we require God to say certain things or do certain things to persuade us to keep it? Shouldn't we rather run to perform the will of God, rather than waiting for a signal from Him before we will do it? Remember that in the NT the weekly Sabbath was taken for granted. It wasn't anything the early church considered debatable. There was no one at that time who disputed the Seventh-day Sabbath. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 .. No one has the "mark of the beast" (although there are plenty of legalistic folks). Likewise, no one has the seal of God for that too is future. Granted no one has the mark of the beast yet. But what is "the seal of God"? What does it mean to be sealed? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 As I said -- although we may have saved saints today - praying to the dead, worshipping bread, worshipping idols or breaking the 4th commandment -- there is the SDA fine poit of eschatology that says that just before the 2nd coming - God will have saints purged of all such errors. Does that "change the meaning of praying to the dead"??? I don't think so. Good points. Another point I'd like to add-- which I am sure Redwood will agree with-- is that Christians are learning about those truths today, and are not waiting for some future point to learn these things. Among the truths they are learning today is the Sabbath. God is restoring the whole truth about Himself. One major truth is that He is the Creator as well as Savior. That is not a truth that we should put off practicing or teaching. Now is the time! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 As I said -- although we may have saved saints today - praying to the dead, worshipping bread....God will have saints purged of all such errors. And will he have SDA free of self-seeking and self-love? I know, I know...folks don't like talking about these types of sins..... Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan As I said -- although we may have saved saints today - praying to the dead, worshipping bread....God will have saints purged of all such errors. And will he have SDA free of self-seeking and self-love? I know, I know...folks don't like talking about these types of sins..... Rob The answer is yes, He will. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 That is why the Sabbath is a sign that it's the Lord who sanctifies us. Sorry, that is an unfinished and ongoing work and therefore it can't point to a finished work that God has rested from.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert And will he have SDA free of self-seeking and self-love? I know, I know...folks don't like talking about these types of sins..... Rob[/quote'] The answer is yes, He will. But right now you are doing these sins....Yet you insist on Sabbath keeping? That's both hypocrisy and legalism. Quote
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert .. No one has the "mark of the beast" (although there are plenty of legalistic folks). Likewise, no one has the seal of God for that too is future. Granted no one has the mark of the beast yet. But what is "the seal of God"? Both are future seals. No one has either seals now. Quote
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 If you are not keeping the Sabbath, and you know about the Sabbath and are under conviction by the Spirit that God wants you to keep it, then you need seek a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. That is the only solution and answer. It is the same with all of God's commandments. Sorry, I was not a slave in Egypt and therefore my resting would be a meaningless gesture. Remember, Moses gave the Sabbath a new meaning. And also, the fall destroyed the meaning of the creation Sabbath. Like I said, you are pushing the Sabbath as the Judaizers pushed circumcision. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 That is why the Sabbath is a sign that it's the Lord who sanctifies us. Sorry, that is an unfinished and ongoing work and therefore it can't point to a finished work that God has rested from.... Rob The process of sanctification does not have to be completed in order for the Sabbath to be a sign that it is the Lord who's sanctifying us. It was a sign of the relationship between ancient Israel and God. The Sabbath was a sign for spiritual Israel under the Old Covenant indicating who sanctified Israel THEN. Today the Sabbath is a sign under the New Covenant that the same Lord is sanctifying us NOW. We worship the same God. He hasn't changed, nor has He changed His commandments. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Sorry' date=' that is an unfinished and ongoing work and therefore it can't point to a finished work that God has rested from.... Rob[/quote'] The process of sanctification does not have to be completed in order for the Sabbath to be a sign that it is the Lord who's sanctifying us. It was a sign of the relationship between ancient Israel and God. The Sabbath was a sign for spiritual Israel under the Old Covenant indicating who sanctified Israel THEN. Today the Sabbath is a sign under the New Covenant that the same Lord is sanctifying us NOW. We worship the same God. He hasn't changed, nor has He changed His commandments. I must reject your nonsense! Stop the self-love and self-seeking...then I might listen, otherwise you're playing the hypocrite, i.e., "Do as I say, not as I do." Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 That is why the Sabbath is a sign that it's the Lord who sanctifies us. Sorry, that is an unfinished and ongoing work and therefore it can't point to a finished work that God has rested from.... Quote: JOHN3:17-- The process of sanctification does not have to be completed in order for the Sabbath to be a sign that it is the Lord who's sanctifying us. It was a sign of the relationship between ancient Israel and God. The Sabbath was a sign for spiritual Israel under the Old Covenant indicating who sanctified Israel THEN. Today the Sabbath is a sign under the New Covenant that the same Lord is sanctifying us NOW. We worship the same God. He hasn't changed, nor has He changed His commandments. Quote: ROBERT-- I must reject your nonsense! Stop the self-love and self-seeking...then I might listen, otherwise you're playing the hypocrite, i.e., "Do as I say, not as I do." Explain how the above shows self-love and self-seeking. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 Explain how the above shows self-love and self-seeking. No...you misunderstand. Stop the self-love and self-seeking in your life, i.e., live Christ's life of selflessness, then I might listen. All through the NT we see that "agape" is the measuring stick for love. That is the aim of the Christian. Without "agape" everything else is meaningless (see 1 Cor 13:3), including your view of the Sabbath. Hence "agape is the fulfillment of the law." Hence "the whole law is fulfilled in the words, 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" The Jews kept the Sabbath better than any SDA. In fact they had more rules than SDA.... Yet they had no genuine love. Christ didn't say the world would know you by your Sabbath keeping. He said you will know them by their love. That's the issue...that's the fruit. The Sabbath is outside this. It is a seal of JBF to be realized in the last days. Quote
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (how?) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...." How does not working make the Sabbath holy? Remember, and never forget it, the Sabbath is a sign...a symbol. Again, what does my refraining from my normal day to day work mean symbolically? What is my resting pointing to? Use the immediate context to prove your answer or use the Genesis account. No Ellen White! The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Explain how the above shows self-love and self-seeking. No...you misunderstand. What, specifically, am I misunderstanding? Quote: Stop the self-love and self-seeking in your life, i.e., live Christ's life of selflessness, then I might listen. In order for you to listen to someone, do they first have to prove to you that they are living Christ's life of selflessness? How would you know if someone were living Christ's life of selflessness, or do you just assume that no one is doing it? Are you living Christ's life of selflessness? Is Jack Sequeira living Christ's life's of selflessness? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 I agree 100% with you here. So let's start loving one another. Can't two Christians who love Christ love another and be kind to each other even while they disagree over doctrinal questions? Let's show people reading this thread that the world really can tell who we are by our love. It's common in the world for two people who disagree to call names and be disagreeable, but it shouldn't be that way among Christ's disciples who are talking about love and forgiveness and salvation. When they do that, there has to be a big disconnect somewhere, don't you agree? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (how?) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...." How does not working make the Sabbath holy? Remember, and never forget it, the Sabbath is a sign...a symbol. Again, what does my refraining from my normal day to day work mean symbolically? What is my resting pointing to? Use the immediate context to prove your answer or use the Genesis account. No Ellen White! The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. The bottom line is that God commanded, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... in it you shall not do any work." That should be enough for those who respect and obey God and His commandments. It is good to think about what it means but it is not good when the thinking about it leads one to believe that it is OK to break it or not obey it. God told Adam and Eve, "Don't eat of the fruit of that tree that's in the middle of the garden because if you eat of it, you will die." Their problem was that they reasoned themselves right into death by thinking they knew better than the command. So do some people today. God says,"Don't work on the Sabbath," and instead of obeying God, they conclude that they don't need to obey God. Satan doesn't care what reason people have for disobeying-- as long as they disobey. Because the result is the same, no matter what the reason. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert I agree 100% with you here. So let's start loving one another. Can't two Christians who love Christ love another and be kind to each other even while they disagree over doctrinal questions? Let's show people reading this thread that the world really can tell who we are by our love. It's common in the world for two people who disagree to call names and be disagreeable' date=' but it shouldn't be that way among Christ's disciples who are talking about love and forgiveness and salvation. When they do that, there has to be a big disconnect somewhere, don't you agree? [/quote'] Wow! I appreciate seeing this and reading this John317. Rob and I have been promoting the idea of Love Won Another for some time. I appeciate you comin on board. Praise God. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (how?) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...." How does not working make the Sabbath holy? Who said that not working makes the Sabbath holy? The Bible doesn't say that. So why are you asking this? NOT WORKING DOES NOT MAKE THE SEVENTH DAY HOLY. IT ALREADY IS HOLY. Notice that it says to keep the Sabbath holy. That is not the same as saying to make it holy. No man can make it holy by simply not working on it. If that was the case, they could make Sunday holy. But they can't. Do you mean to ask, "How is not working keeping the Sabbath holy"? That is an altogether different question, but it's a very important distinction. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 OK, very glad to hear it, so we ought to see some changes here, then. I'm all for it. Can't two Christians who love Christ love another and be kind to each other even while they disagree over doctrinal questions? Let's show people reading this thread that the world really can tell who we are by our love. It's common in the world for two people who disagree to call names and be disagreeable, but it shouldn't be that way among Christ's disciples who are talking about love and forgiveness and salvation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Quote: OK, very glad to hear it, so we ought to see some changes here, then. I'm all for it. Glad to hear it. For as long as I have been on the forum ... I have had others criticize this saying. So, if we can get others on board ... I think it would be great. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
Moderators John317 Posted October 14, 2008 Moderators Posted October 14, 2008 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (how?) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...." Remember, and never forget it, the Sabbath is a sign...a symbol. Yes, exactly right. It is a symbol. God said it is a sign that Yahweh is the One who sanctifies His people. It is a sign or symbol of a relationship-- the relationship between the Creator and those He calls His own. They are people He is changing to become more like Him. That is what sanctification is all about: becoming more like God, more like Christ. That was the meaning of the sign of the Sabbath under the Old Covenant, and the Sabbath is also part of the New Covenant. The Sabbath did not change or cease under the New Covenant. None of the Ten Commandments changed or ceased to apply under the New Covenant. Under the New Covenant the law is no longer an exterior law written merely on stone, but it is written on our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. What does this mean? It means that the law becomes a part of our very being, no longer a mere rule outside of our mind, but a rule inside-- if we allow the Spirit to do it. The Spirit won't write it there if we resist or rebel. God will not force the law to be written on our minds and hearts. He honors our freedom too much to do that. Jesus died in order to guarantee our freedom to chose or reject Him and His kingdom. Under the New Covenant, according to Hebrews, the Sabbath took on added significance. Therefore, under the New Covenant, the Sabbath did not cease to have meaning-- it increased in meaning. Whereas, under the Old Covenant, the Sabbath pointed to God's creation and His powers as the Creator and Owner of the earth, and also pointed to this Creator as the Redeemer and Sanctifier of His people, it now also symbolizes the salvation that God has made available for us in the present as well as the complete fulfillment of that salvation in heaven and on the new earth. The entire doctrine of the Sabbath is about faith and is founded on faith: faith in God as creator, redeemer, sanctifier, coming Savior, and re-creator. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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