Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[John317]

1st set of tablets:

Ex 32:15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.....19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

Why did he break them?

Is there anything there that indicates God told Moses to break the tablets? No. It says only that Moses was angry.

Is there anything in the Bible that says the second tablets were different from the originals? No.

In fact, God told Moses He would write the words of the first tablets on the second tablets. And it is plain that God wrote on the first tablets the words spoken in Ex. 20.

However, as stated before, it is all irrelevant because even if we accept your argument that the original spoken words of God are those in Deut. 5, the fact remains that the reason for the seventh-day Sabbath goes back to creation. That is when it was blessed and made holy. It doesn't matter one iota that the world is imperfect NOW because that wasn't the reason the Sabbath was given to anyone, anyhow. It was given because it was to draw our minds to the fact of creation and to the fact that God is Creator. The Fall could not possibly change the fact that God is the Creator. There is nothing about "perfection" in all verses dealing with the Sabbath, whether in Gen. 2, Ex. 20, Deut. 5, or Heb. 4.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- The clincher for me is the fact that the Sabbath was declared to be a memorial of creation in Ex. 20, thousands of years AFTER the Fall. So if that is true, it proves without question that it's an invalid argument which would ask us to believe the Sabbath was changed because the world is no longer perfect.

God, I believe, was trying to tell us something. The change of the 4th commandment from creation to redemption of the Jews was God's way of stating that the Sabbath of creation, as a sign, was now meaningless! So it's not a "clincher"....

That's fine, of course, if you want to believe that. I just don't think it's got valid Bible support and it certainly has no support whatever in the Spirit of prophecy.

If you can, post Jack Sequeira's explanation of it on this thread and let's take a close look at his evidence and arguments.

[BobRyan]

1st set of tablets:

Quote:

Ex 32:15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.....19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

2nd set of tablets:

Ex 34:1 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered....

[Robert]

That's fine, of course, if you want to believe that.

[Robert]

Hmm - just when you wanted to imagine that the text says "I will write on the tablets DIFFERENT WORDS from the ones that were on the former ones" -- the text actually said "I will write on the tablets THE WORDS that WERE on the former ones".

Not the "same" words as John stated. Neither did it say word for word. The Sabbath is still the Sabbath, but the reason why the Jews kept it was changed!

Again:

He [God] said,

"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery."

"You shall have no other gods before Me."

"You shall not make for yourself an idol...."

"You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain...."

"Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] ....You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm"

Let's say you are right and these were Moses' words. Was Moses God's prophet? Yes! Then we must assume that God gave Moses permission to change it from creation to redemption! I mean it's right in front of you, guys. The reason was changed!

Rob

[Robert]

However, as stated before, it is all irrelevant because even if we accept your argument that the original spoken words of God are those in Deut. 5, the fact remains that the reason for the seventh-day Sabbath goes back to creation.

Yes, the original reason...of course, but "the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath"!

Here's what Jack says (since you keep asking):

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence. Isa. 59:2 says that your sin separates you from God. Gen. 3:19 is a good text. What did God say to Adam after he fell?

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

The creature/Creator relationship was always to be a relationship of total dependence. God never created man to live independent of Him. That’s why Jesus said,

Without Me you can do nothing.

Now we must apply this also in terms of salvation.

I am the vine, you are the branches. Abide in Me and I in you.

That was always. So when Adam sinned he departed from God-dependence. In order to restore the Sabbath rest to man, Jesus came to work again. He said “I must work the works of my Father.” What was the work that God gave Him to do? To save us.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

1st set of tablets:

Quote:

Ex 32:15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.....19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

2nd set of tablets:

Ex 34:1 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered....

Hmm - just when you wanted to imagine that the text says "I will write on the tablets DIFFERENT WORDS from the ones that were on the former ones" -- the text actually said "I will write on the tablets THE WORDS that WERE on the former ones".

So first set written by God -- second set written by God... God "didn't forget"

Where is this at all confusing??

If God wrote on the second set of tablets what He wrote on the first tablets, what words did He write--- Exodus 20 or Deut. 5?

It is very clear that God spoke the words that are recorded in Exodus 20. And God wrote the words that He spoke before all the people. I do not see how we can escape the conclusion that the second set of tablets had the same words that are in Exodus 20.

That is the conclusion that virtually all Bible scholars have come to. I don't know any that haven't.

Give me the name and reference for any Bible scholar or Bible commentary that says the second tablet is the one which give God's words that He both wrote and spoke.

I'd like to know their reasoning and evidence.

[Robert]

It is very clear that God spoke the words that are recorded in Exodus 20.

Maybe..., but still something changed! Moses gave the 4th commandment a new meaning....And that happened because "the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath"!

Rob

[John317]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It is very clear that God spoke the words that are recorded in Exodus 20.

Maybe..., but still something changed! Moses gave the 4th commandment a new meaning....And that happened because "the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath"!

Rob

I'd be very interested in talking or writing directly to Jack Sequeira about this. Do you ever talk to him? On the phone maybe?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't think Jack understands the significance of the Sabbath if he think the Fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. ....[/quote']

And I know you don't understand the Sabbath because you see it from the point of view of Traditional, Adventism! The way you present the Sabbath is very similar to the way the Judaizers presented circumcision.

They needed corrected...and likewise, you need correcting!

You're welcome,

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I didn't mean that I don't think Jack S. knows nothing about the Sabbath's significance, of course. I was referring to his sentence which seems to imply that the Sabbath no longer has any significance, but I know he meant it changed in its significance. But I would like to talk to him about that very point.

Speaking of circumcision, I know you don't believe that circumcision became a part of the New Covenant.

But do you believe that the Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant?

And when was the Everlasting Covenant given to Abraham ratified?

[John317]

And I know you don't understand the Sabbath because you see it from the point of view of Traditional, Adventism!

Well, there are some very good things about Traditional Adventism, I think. I am not at all ashamed or embarrassed by that.

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what Traditional Adventism is or was.

Does Ellen White give the point of view of Traditional Adventism?

You said before you don't go to church. What is your reason for not going? What do you do on the Sabbath? Do you have a family you spend it with or do you spend it by yourself? Describe a typical Sabbath for you.

[Robert]

I was referring to his sentence which seems to imply that the Sabbath no longer has any significance....

"In order to restore the Sabbath rest to man, Jesus came to work again. He said “I must work the works of my Father.” What was the work that God gave Him to do? To save us.

[Robert]

1] ? 2] ? 3]? 4] ? Describe a typical Sabbath for you.

Let's see... 4 questions and a demand.

John, you have problems. First of all I won't allow your inquisition to continue. You aren't my pope...you aren't my self-proclaimed teacher!

I have clearly illustrated that the significance of the Sabbath changed. The reason why most other Christians do not accept the Sabbath is mainly because the way traditional Adventists, such as yourself, presents it! Again, you present the Sabbath in the same manner as the Judaizers presented circumcision.

True circumcision was a sign to have no confidence in one's performance. But the Judaizers took the sign and said, “Unless you are circumcised ... you cannot be saved.” Hence they turned circumcision into bragging rights and confidence in one's performance!

In the same manner the Adventists' Judaizers among us teach that unless you keep the Sabbath you cannot be saved. But clearly the significance of the 4th commandment changed because Moses changed it from one of creation to the redemption of the Jews from bondage.

True Sabbath keeping has its significance in the end times when all false gospels openly clash with the truth as it is "in Christ". At that time the Sabbath will become the seal of RBF just as circumcision became a seal for Abraham and his descendents many years after he was justified by faith alone.

Failure to clearly understand this as led many Adventists into legalism. That's why the majority of Christians outside Adventism rejects the Sabbath. They see it as OC....They see it as a legalistic requirement from a cult.*

Rob

* (disclaimer) Not all SDA are legalists and cult members. After all, I learned the gospel from an Adventist Pastor.

[Woody]

Quote:

True circumcision was a sign to have no confidence in one's performance. But the Judaizers took the sign and said, “Unless you are circumcised ... you cannot be saved.” Hence they turned circumcision into bragging rights and confidence in one's performance!

In the same manner the Adventists' Judaizers among us teach that unless you keep the Sabbath you cannot be saved. But clearly the significance of the 4th commandment changed because Moses changed it from one of creation to the redemption of the Jews from bondage.

This idea of a change in the meaning of the Sabbath is interesting. As I mentioned previously ... I keep the Sabbath to almost a legalistic manner. But it is out of love and desire to stay close to Jesus. Not for legalistic reasons.

That said ... I have to make an interesting observation ...

I ... as with other SDAs ... keep the Sabbath 'because' I am saved.

Others currently keep the Sabbath in order to be saved. They believe that Faith plus Works = Salvation

But usually ... both camps believe that in the end of time .... That Sabbath Keeping will = Salvation

So ... is this not another change in the meaning of Sabbath?

[Robert]

... both camps believe that in the end of time .... That Sabbath Keeping will = Salvation

To help understand this let's go back to circumcision. Why? Because both the Sabbath and circumcision are seals and failure to understand the issues here will lead one into unbelief and self-righteousness!

Romans 4:9 We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?

It was not after, but before! 11 And he [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Did Abraham's circumcision attribute to his salvation by faith alone? Clearly, no! Abraham stood on the platform of justification or righteousness by faith alone. Then what went wrong?

Abraham, through Sarah, tried to help God produce the child of promise. This was an act of unbelief.

What did God do in response to this unbelief? He waited until both Sarah's and Abraham's reproductive systems were dead and then He did as He said. Let' read:

Romans 4:18 In hope against hope he believed, in order that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

Remember that initially Abraham thought he would help God keep his promise. Not only was that an act of unbelief, but it was also a self-righteous act. That's because unbelief and self-righteousness goes hand 'n hand.

19 And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God.

And we know the rest of the story. God came to Abraham and Sarah and said, "Next year you will have a son".

Why did God wait so long to deliver His promise? Because of unbelief.

When Abraham's faith "grew strong" God did as He said. Only after this did God give the sign of circumcision. It "sealed" his righteousness by faith....It was a "stamp" (if you will) of the righteousness that he already had by faith alone.

What if Abraham would have said, "No thanks...I won't be circumcised"?

Answer:

"Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.” [Gen 17:14]

Remember that Abraham was under the covenant of grace. He was under the New Covenant of justification by faith. If Abraham would have denied this seal he would have been cut off - he would have been outside the covenant. That simply means he would have been outside salvation.

Why? Did circumcision save him (as the Judaizers taught)? No! Then why the threat of being "cut off"?

Because circumcision was the "seal" (the stamp of approval) that Abraham was truly justified by faith. It was a "seal" that pointed to his justification by faith. It was a "seal" that Abraham's faith wasn't in his performance, but in God's promises. Let's read this:

Gal 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later [after Abraham was justified by faith], does not set aside the covenant [of grace] previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

So the law, which came around 430 years later, was not given as a replacement to the covenant God previously established with Abraham. And the seal of that covenant was circumcision.

Keep in mind what circumcision symbolized:

Phil 3:3 For we [believers] are the true circumcision, [in what way?] who glory [not in themselves, but rather] in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh [human performance, human works]....

What does Paul mean by "glory in Christ Jesus"?

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our justification, sanctification and glorification. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who glories, glory in the Lord.”

Circumcision, as given to Abraham, was a sign...a symbol not to glory in human perfection...in human works, but rather "in Christ" as our righteousness. To deny such a sign would have been a outward sign of unbelief. Outside salvation by and through Christ there is only condemnation, i.e., you are cut off!

That's why Paul said the following to the self-righteous Judaizers:

Gal 5:4 You are severed [cut off] from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace [i.e., you are under law - under the curse].

Redwood, if you followed this, then understanding the Sabbath as a seal of justification by faith should be no problem for you.

Do you understand what I have stated so far? If not, let's go over it!

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

"Did Abraham's circumcision attribute to his salvation by faith alone? Clearly, no! Abraham stood on the platform of justification or righteousness by faith alone"

Quote:

"Remember that initially Abraham thought he would help God keep his promise. Not only was that an act of unbelief, but it was also a self-righteous act. That's because unbelief and self-righteousness goes hand 'n hand."

Quote:

"When Abraham's faith "grew strong" God did as He said. Only after this did God give the sign of circumcision. It "sealed" his righteousness by faith"

Quote:

"Remember that Abraham was under the covenant of grace. He was under the New Covenant of justification by faith. If Abraham would have denied this seal he would have been cut off - he would have been outside the covenant."

Quote:

"To deny such a sign would have been a outward sign of unbelief. Outside salvation by and through Christ there is only condemnation, i.e., you are cut off!"

This is a good way to express and explain it Rob. I get it praise God !! I have never understood the importance of the Sabbath in end times in relation to the Gospel. Now I do thanks to you. I do understand now. This helps immensely. Thank you Rob. I don't see how anyone can find fault in this as you have presented here.

[Robert]

I don't see how anyone can find fault in this as you have presented here.

They will..they will!

Now, ask yourself a question:

"Self, what is the Sabbath a seal of?"

Remember how Abraham's unbelief caused God to postpone His promise to Abraham?

Okay, why hasn't God returned as He promised? What's holding Him up?

Could it be unbelief?

More specifically, could it be because we have failed to preach the good news - the gospel restored?

So right now we are waiting, just like Abraham. God wants for our faith to grow. And He does this through the restoration of the gospel.

When the gospel is restored (and I believe that God raised the SDA church to restore the gospel, just as He raised Israel to usher in the Messiah) then as a seal, God will require that the Sabbath be kept.

You can see this in the following, but remember that this quote is taken from under the law's point of view and not as a rejection of the Sabbath as a seal of the righteousness we already have by faith:

Everyone who profanes [the Sabbath] shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Now compare this to circumcision as given to Abraham:

"An uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

So when the gospel is restored our faith will be fully developed. We will have confidence and glory only "in Christ Jesus". There will be no self-righteousness...no glorying in the flesh and as a seal God will give us the Sabbath.

If you say, "No thanks" you are outwardly telling God that you are perfectly able to save yourself. That's the mark of the beast - a seal of self-righteousness.

So the Sabbath will be the seal of God when the true gospel is restored and preached. And likewise the other seal, "the mark (or seal) of the beast" will also come into play.

Remember, the signs don't save. What they point to is what saves!

So the issues are future, just like Abraham's circumcision was future. No one has the "mark of the beast" (although there are plenty of legalistic folks). Likewise, no one has the seal of God for that too is future.

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

More specifically, could it be because we have failed to preach the good news - the gospel restored?

I think that we as a church have 'tried'. But for everything good ... there is a counterfeit. And Satan has tried hard to counter the Gospel with legalism. He tries to make it as close to the Gospel as he can. So, he says you must have the Gospel + Works to = Salvation. He is sly.

So, have we failed? Yes. But that is to be considered. The Devil is doing his part to confuse what we have done.

At some point ... Jesus will make Himself manifest. It will be because He decides time has gone on enough. You know ... Jesus could put an end to all this at any time. He is not waiting on us. For if it was just up to us ... it would not get done.

[John317]

[Robert]

[Traditional] Seventh-day Adventist don't teach that "unless you keep the Sabbath you cannot be saved."

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

[Traditional] Seventh-day Adventist don't teach that "unless you keep the Sabbath you cannot be saved."

Sure they do! You do, and I'll prove it:

Quote:

Obedience is the fruit of genuine faith in God. Our lives will tell if we truly believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as our Lord.

And naturally, you include the Sabbath.

Are you Paraphrasing Jesus in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father"

OR in John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments"

And then accusing him of knowing that HIS commandments in Ex 20 also included HIS Own creation-memorial -- ??

Well if it is either of the above I would argue that while it IS true that He KNEW His commandments included the 4th - He also was making a statement that would go far beyond his immediate listeners to include both Catholics and non-SDAs who were either praying to the dead, worshipping idols, worshipping bread or breaking Sabbath.

Yet Adventists consistently argue that there are saved saints in ALL of those groups -- but we never argue that praying to the dead is good or that worshipping bread is good or that worshipping idols is good or that trashing Christ our creator's holy memorial of His own work in making all life on earth in six actual days -- is a good idea.

This is really not as complicated as you have presented it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

This idea of a change in the meaning of the Sabbath is interesting. As I mentioned previously ... I keep the Sabbath to almost a legalistic manner. But it is out of love and desire to stay close to Jesus. Not for legalistic reasons.

That said ... I have to make an interesting observation ...

I ... as with other SDAs ... keep the Sabbath 'because' I am saved.

Others currently keep the Sabbath in order to be saved. They believe that Faith plus Works = Salvation

But usually ... both camps believe that in the end of time .... That Sabbath Keeping will = Salvation

So ... is this not another change in the meaning of Sabbath?

As I said -- although we may have saved saints today - praying to the dead, worshipping bread, worshipping idols or breaking the 4th commandment -- there is the SDA fine poit of eschatology that says that just before the 2nd coming - God will have saints purged of all such errors.

Does that "change the meaning of praying to the dead"???

I don't think so.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I have clearly illustrated that the significance of the Sabbath changed. The reason why most other Christians do not accept the Sabbath is mainly because the way traditional Adventists, such as yourself, presents it!