Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[John317]

Quote:

... you say, "God calls on us today to have circumcision of the heart, which is much more important to God."

You know what? Your assumption, "which is much more important to God", is just that...an assumption....

[/quote']

What does it mean to have circumcision of the heart like Jeremiah 4:4 speaks of?

In giving the sign of circumcision, what was God's intention and plan?

Did God give the sign in order for people just to have some flesh cut off, or was he concerned primarily with their trust in Him and in their relationship with Him?

[Robert]

And Redwood, I commend you for keeping the Sabbath so carefully, not to be saved but because you value that special time with Jesus so much. The Sabbath is a priviledge and such a joy!

And other Christians, because they view the Sabbath as OC, equally choose to follow Jesus and express it in other areas.

Do you know why most Christians view the Sabbath as OC?

Answer: Traditional Adventists!

[Woody]

Quote:

And other Christians, because they view the Sabbath as OC, equally choose to follow Jesus and express it in other areas.

This is a good thing to bring up Rob. These Christians are sincere. They may disagree with SDAs ... but they are our brothers and sister who are saved in the blood of Jesus. Who are we to condemn them. Let them be. Our mission should be for those who are NOT saved. That is who our message should go to.

We are not saved by our knowledge or keeping of the Sabbath. We are saved by accepting Jesus as our Saviour. Who knows ... we as SDAs may be wrong. It just doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. This knowledge game gets old.

Let's share the gospel. Let's share the LOVE of God. And let's start loving and sharing this.

Love Won Another.

[Robert]

Did God give the sign in order for people just to have some flesh cut off, or was he concerned primarily with their trust in Him and in their relationship with Him?

He gave it as a sign that God keeps His promise and human works and human pride have no part of that equation. The removal of the foreskin represented the the cutting away of unbelief. Hence circumcision was an everlasting sign between Abraham & his descendants to place no confidence in the flesh, but instead in the promises of God.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. 8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” 9 Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath [the curse], but where there is no law, neither is there violation. [i.e., while the law exists, we are not under it's jurisdiction] 16 For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law [the Jews], but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you” ) in the sight of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, in order that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

[Robert]

Our mission should be for those who are NOT saved. That is who our message should go to.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Taylor

And Redwood, I commend you for keeping the Sabbath so carefully, not to be saved but because you value that special time with Jesus so much. The Sabbath is a priviledge and such a joy!

And other Christians, because they view the Sabbath as OC, equally choose to follow Jesus and express it in other areas.

Do you know why most Christians view the Sabbath as OC?

Answer: Traditional Adventists!

It's because they are confused about God's law and the gospel. They believe, like you do, that faith in Christ releases all people from obedience to the Ten Commandments, but the New Testament doesn't teach this. However, many thousands of other Christians are learning the truth about this and are beginning to keep the Sabbath.

I have studied with some of them and seen them accept the gospel as well as the Sabbath.

Does Jack Sequeira believe, as you do, that it is not the right time yet to teach the Sabbath?

The Sabbath can be, and is, taught from the standpoint of faith. Why do you think I obey God's* will? It is not because I am trying to earn God's favor. It is because I recognize that it is the right thing to do and I want to glorify Him in my life. It is not glorifying God to disobey Him.

Worship is tied in with obedience to God. Didn't Abraham obey God? Why did he? Wasn't it because of Abraham's genuine faith?

[John317]

Better yet, let's restore the gospel. And the gospel is how Jesus Christ saved the human race by His doing & dying!

Rob

I completely agree with you. Let us restore the gospel and teach people that Christ gave His life for the salvation of the human race. All we do is accept the gift of salvation by faith. We don't do anything for it. Just like Abraham.

The restoration of the gospel has to do with much more than simply understanding that Christ died for humanity. The gospel is about who God is, and that gospel has been trampled into the dust. The restoration of the gospel includes the fact that no human can change God's law and that Christ alone is our High Priest. It includes the good news that Christ made the world and us and that this great Creator also died for us to save us from sin, and that He will one day recreate the earth as a place where He will live among us.

The major differences here is whether faith in Christ releases us from obedience to God and to the moral law. You say that it does.

Another major difference is that you say that the Sabbath commandment has been changed so that the Sabbath is no longer a memorial of creation, and that the Sabbath is only a sign of righteousness by faith at some future, indeterminate time. Therefore, from your viewpoint, any preaching of the Sabbath at the present time is legalistic.

[Woody]

Quote:

that faith in Christ releases them from obedience to the Ten Commandments, but the New Testament doesn't teach this. However, many thousands of other Christians are learning the truth about this and are beginning to keep the Sabbath.

Quote:

"Yet the Saviour does not bid the disciples labor to bear fruit. He tells them to abide in Him. "If ye abide in Me," He says, "and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." DA 677

[Woody]

Quote:

Another major difference is that you say that the Sabbath commandment has been changed so that the Sabbath is no longer a memorial of creation, and that the Sabbath is only a sign of righteousness by faith at some future, indeterminate time. Therefore, from your viewpoint, any preaching of the Sabbath at the present time is legalistic.

From my understanding ... this is just 'running of the mouth' and a misrepresentation of what Rob believes and is saying. But, I will let Rob correct me if I am wrong.

But, I just preached to my personal Sabbath keeping and Rob said it was fine.And I think it was mighty 'conservative'. Perhaps it is the manner in which you do it.?? Help me out Rob.

But until Rob arrives ... let me quote him :

Quote:

"The same is true of the Sabbath. Many Adventists have perverted the Sabbath by making it a requirement to be saved, when in reality, it symbolizes that we already stand 100% righteous in the doing of dying of Christ - namely, God's rest."

[John317]

[John317]

Quote:

Another major difference is that you say that the Sabbath commandment has been changed so that the Sabbath is no longer a memorial of creation, and that the Sabbath is only a sign of righteousness by faith at some future, indeterminate time. Therefore, from your viewpoint, any preaching of the Sabbath at the present time is legalistic.

From my understanding ... this is just 'running of the mouth' and a misrepresentation of what Rob believes and is saying. But, I will let Rob correct me if I am wrong.

I would like to see what he says about this also. Actually I hope I am totally wrong about what he believes. I hope he really believes that the commandments of God cannot be changed, that the Sabbath is still a memorial of creation and that God's will is for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.

[Woody]

Yes. I am anxious to know if my preaching about how I keep the Sabbath was legalistic.

Quote:

Therefore, from your viewpoint, any preaching of the Sabbath at the present time is legalistic.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

You are getting this from Jack Sequeira, who in turn got it from both the Bible and from A. T. Jones' books, especially A Consecrated Way To Perfection and some of his other writings.

John, I got this from my own understanding reading the Bible.

I am not saying these things are not in the Bible. But if you study both Jack Sequeira and A.T Jones, you will find that Jack is greatly influenced by some of the writings by E.J.Waggoner and A.T. Jones. Jack doesn't deny this.

I believe everything in A Consecrated Way, by A.T. Jones. It's a wonderful book. Have you studied it?

[Robert]

It's because they are confused about God's law and the gospel.

[Woody]

While we are waiting ... perhaps you could answer this one.

Quote:

Quote:

Living in sin is intending to continue the sin.

Could you provide a reference for this belief ? OR ... is this just your personal belief?

[John317]

While we are waiting ... perhaps you could answer this one.

Quote:

Quote:

Living in sin is intending to continue the sin.

Could you provide a reference for this belief ? OR ... is this just your personal belief?

I already gave you many quotes from the Spirit of prophecy showing that when people are living in sin, they have a choice whether to stop living in sin and to start living for God in obedience to Him.

Living in sin is the opposite of living for God. Of course no one is forced to live in sin if they want to be freed from sin. See Romans 6 and 8 and 1 John 3: 1-10.

[Robert]

The restoration of the gospel has to do with much more than simply understanding that Christ died for humanity. The gospel is about who God is, and that gospel has been trampled into the dust. The restoration of the gospel includes the fact that no human can change God's law and that Christ alone is our High Priest. It includes the good news that Christ made the world and us and that this great Creator also died for us to save us from sin, and that He will one day recreate the earth as a place where He will live among us.

Utterly false! This is pure heresy. The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is the truth as it is "in Christ". What you teach is "another gospel"....It is a gospel of works and self-righteousness.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

While we are waiting ... perhaps you could answer this one.

Quote:

Quote:

Living in sin is intending to continue the sin.

Could you provide a reference for this belief ? OR ... is this just your personal belief?

I already gave you many quotes from the Spirit of prophecy showing that when people are living in sin, they have a choice whether to stop living in sin and to start living for God in obedience to Him.

Living in sin is the opposite of living for God. Of course no one is forced to live in sin if they want to be freed from sin. See Romans 6 and 8 and 1 John 3: 1-10.

None of your quotes talked about this at all. Just throwing a lot of quotes out hoping they might stick does not work. They may have said other things but not what you said. I am interested in a quote that confirms what you said that ... "Living in sin is intending to continue the sin." Just show me the quote where she says this. Or is it just something you made up? Just come clean.

The issue of intend here is important. This was the word you used.

[Robert]

Of course no one is forced to live in sin if they want to be freed from sin.

Why aren't you free from sin?

Ellen White:

Self-love, self-interest, must perish

[Robert]

I would like to see what he says about this also. Actually I hope I am totally wrong about what he believes. I hope he really believes that the commandments of God cannot be changed, that the Sabbath is still a memorial of creation and that God's will is for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is a symbol that points to a complete and finished work of God. If God is to rest, then that work must be finished.

Comprehend?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I would like to see what he says about this also. Actually I hope I am totally wrong about what he believes. I hope he really believes that the commandments of God cannot be changed, that the Sabbath is still a memorial of creation and that God's will is for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is a symbol that points to a complete and finished work of God. If God is to rest, then that work must be finished.

Comprehend?

1) Do you believe the commandments of God can be changed?

2) Do you believe the Sabbath is still a memorial of creation? The above makes it appear you do not believe it is a memorial. If it is preached as a memorial of God's creation, is this legalistic or wrong, in your view?

3) Is it legalistic to teach the Sabbath on the basis of God's moral law and faith in Christ?

What did you mean when you posted the following?---

Quote:

Originally Posted By: B Humble

Since Abraham was not circumcised [for 24 years] and not keeping the Sabbath, neither should the Gentiles be made to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised.

And I'm not saying they should.... [ellipses by original poster]

The above is from post #189061-- 9/27/28

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Of course no one is forced to live in sin if they want to be freed from sin.

Why aren't you free from sin?

Ellen White:

Self-love, self-interest, must perish

In your judgment, is anyone-- and has anyone, apart from Christ-- been free from sin in the sense that Romans 6 uses that phrase?

Romans 6 talks about being free from sin and being servants of righteousness. Just as we once gave our members over to sin, now we are to give our members over to be slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6: 20-22--

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20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

See also 1 John 3: 1-10.

Don't these verses teach that believers don't have to live in sin?

[John317]

I am interested in a quote that confirms what you said that ... "Living in sin is intending to continue the sin." Just show me the quote where she says this. Or is it just something you made up? Just come clean.

The issue of intend here is important. This was the word you used.

What is "living in sin" to you? How do you understand the term?

Neither the Bible nor the Spirit of prophecy use the exact phrase "living in sin," but the both of them use expressions that refer to "a life of sin," etc. 1 John refers to "practicing sin," etc. Those are lifestyles devoted to sinning. It is referring to deliberate, willful sinning.

For instance, we often refer to people who are living together without benefit of marriage as "living in sin." They are doing it constantly and deliberately. They are not together continually out of no choice. They are choosing to live that way.

No one can force a born-again believer to commit sin, so it is clear that living a life of sin, or living in sin, is something that believers do because they choose it, or intend to do it.

God provides us with the power to resist and overcome sins and temptations. He doesn't leave us as slaves of sin. Through the new birth and the power of the Spirit in our lives, we becomes slaves of righteousness, enabled to obey God's will. Romans 6 and 8.

[Woody]

I'm not playin that game. You made the statement ... I asked you if it was just your personal idea or if you had some reference for this thought. You then threw out a punch of texts that did not show what you have said here about intent. So, again I need to ask if you have any references for this belief or it is just your own?

[Robert]

I'm not playin that game.

Good....

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.