Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[John317]

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OK, very glad to hear it, so we ought to see some changes here, then. I'm all for it.

Glad to hear it. For as long as I have been on the forum ... I have had others criticize this saying. So, if we can get others on board ... I think it would be great.

A very sincere Amen, Redwood.

[John317]

“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (how?) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...."

Again, what does my refraining from my normal day to day work mean symbolically?

Refraining from work on the seventh day means the following important things:

1) It means that you recognize that God has the right to command you not to work.

2) It means that the seventh-day belongs to God, the Creator who made the entire week.

3) It means that you acknowledge Him personally as Lord and Master of your own life.

4) It means that you are dedicating all of that holy time to God, and not to yourself or to anyone else. This is holy time that is spent in a relationship with God.

5) It means that you recognize and agree with Him that you are completely reliant upon God for your life and for salvation.

6) It means that you have such trust in Him that you will obey Him in all things, even as regards which day to rest upon, although this may not make sense to human reasoning. Therefore it means that you worship God and do not worship human reasoning. (Human reasoning tells you it make sense to rest but human reasoning alone will not cause you to rest necessarily on the 7th day. For that, one requires special revelation.)

7) It means that you look forward to the day when you will worship on the Sabbath with all the saints in heaven and on the new earth. That will be the ultimate "rest" throughout eternity living with God Himself.

There are other meanings in resting on the seventh day Sabbath, but let this suffice for now.

[John317]

“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (how?) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work...."

..... What is my resting pointing to? Use the immediate context to prove your answer or use the Genesis account.

At Exodus 20: 11, Jehovah Himself expressly calls that "first seventh day" of rest "the Sabbath day." At Gen. 2: 1-3, the Bible says that the seventh day was at that time blessed and sanctified by the Creator because He had rested from all the work that God had done during the creation week. It was a sinless, perfect world.

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The word "blessed" signifies to declare blessedness; thus on the frontispiece of His Word, God would have every reader know that special divine blessing attends the observance of the Sabbath. The word "sanctified" means that it was a day set apart for sacred use. For Adam it would be a means for his more intimate communion with God, in which he would enjoy a recess from his secular employment and have opportunity of expressing his gratitude for all those blessings of which he was the partaker.

See Man's Total Depravity, Arthur W. Pink, p. 20.

When God spoke the Ten Commandments before all the people, He commanded that we should keep the Sabbath as a reminder of God's having created the world in six days. This was the reason given for resting on the seventh day of the week. It goes back to the fact that the seventh day is blessed and sacred. It is sacred time.

God also wrote those words on the tables of stone. Moses broke them out of his anger at Israel's transgression and rebellion. Then God commanded Moses to deliver more tablets in order for God to write the words of the first table on the second set.

Even while the people of Israel were rebelling at the foot of Sinai, God repeated, in Ex. 31: 17, the reason for keeping the Sabbath. Significantly, the reason given is that the Sabbath points to God's creation of the world.

The fact that Deut. 5 gives a different reason for keeping the Sabbath is no reason to believe that the original reason for keeping it no longer applies. The reasons do not contradict one another any more than faith in Christ's salvation contradicts or negates the Sabbath as a sign of sanctification or as a sign of Creation. The same God who made the world also brought Israel out of Egyptian slavery. The one does exclude the other. In the same way, the same God who made the world and freed Israel also frees you and me from slavery to sin through the death of His Son Jesus Christ.

On top of this, it is necessary to consider the fact that the most ancient and best manuscript evidence shows the original of Deut. 5 included the memorial of creation. Those Dead Sea scrolls are dated over 1000 years before the previous texts-- the Masoretic-- on which Old Testament translations are based. (The oldest Masoretic text is dated to about 900 AD, but most are dated much later.)

Consider and compare the MT with the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible:

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The Masoretic Text (MT) is the Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible (Tanakh).....The MT is also widely used as the basis for translations of the Old Testament in Protestant Bibles, and in recent decades also for Catholic Bibles...The oldest extant fragments of the Masoretic Text date from approximately the ninth century AD,[1] and the Aleppo Codex (the oldest copy of the Masoretic Text, but missing the Torah) dates from the tenth century.

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The significance of the scrolls relates in a large part to the field of textual criticism. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic texts dating to 9th century. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back to the 2nd century BC.

This is evidence that up to now you have refused to deal with seriously, but until you do, your argument of a major change at Deut. 5 looks highly suspect to say the least. Especially in view of all the other evidence. One really does not even need the Dead Sea Scrolls evidence, but if we consider it, the argument against a change at Deut. 5 is practically ridiculous. That is probably why I cannot find any Bible scholars that teach it. Do you know of anyone who does teach it, besides Jack (if indeed he still does, today)?

It is useless to argue, then, that there was a fundamental change in the Sabbath simply because of the Fall. If there had been such a change, God would not then speak the law and write it the way He did in Exodus 20.

Lastly, there is no evidence in the text itself to show that the children of Israel's idolatry changed the meaning of the Sabbath.

The reason Moses spoke of Israel's delivery from Egypt is that they were just about ready to go into the Promised Land where they would have servants. They were being reminded to be sure and keep the Sabbath and let their servants keep the Sabbath. The tenth commandment is also added to at that point, showing that the change had to do with the historical circumstances, not to any fundamental change regarding the meaning of the Sabbath.

If the Sabbath's meaning had been changed in a fundamental way, you would reasonably expect something to be said about it soon after it occurred instead of waiting for 40 years, and then hearing about it for the first time just before they go into the Promised Land. It seems very obvious to me that this is the reason for the reminder of Egypt. I have yet to read a Bible commentator who believes differently on this point.

Therefore, in consideration of all this, I find that evidence overwhelmingly in favor of the Sabbath being and remaining a memorial of creation.

Does the Sabbath point to faith? Of course. I have said over and over again that the Sabbath is ALL about faith.

Again,

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Whereas, under the Old Covenant, the Sabbath pointed to God's creation and His powers as the Creator and Owner of the earth, and also pointed to this Creator as the Redeemer and Sanctifier of His people, it now also symbolizes the salvation that God has made available for us in the present as well as the complete fulfillment of that salvation in heaven and on the new earth. The entire doctrine of the Sabbath is about faith and is founded on faith: faith in God as creator, redeemer, sanctifier, coming Savior, and re-creator.

[Robert]

How would you know if someone were living Christ's life of selflessness, or do you just assume that no one is doing it?

"All have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God"

[Robert]

Remember that in the NT the weekly Sabbath was taken for granted.

An assumption

[Robert]

The bottom line is that God commanded, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... in it you shall not do any work."

[Robert]

Do you mean to ask, "How is not working keeping the Sabbath holy"?

Okay...?

[Robert]

Yes, exactly right. It is a symbol. God said it is a sign that Yahweh is the One who sanctifies His people.

[Robert]

Refraining from work on the seventh day means the following important things:

1) It means that you recognize that God has the right to command you not to work.

[Robert]

On top of this, it is necessary to consider the fact that the most ancient and best manuscript evidence shows the original of Deut. 5 included the memorial of creation. Those Dead Sea scrolls are dated over 1000 years before the previous texts-- the Masoretic-- on which Old Testament translations are based. (The oldest Masoretic text is dated to about 900 AD, but most are dated much later.)

You make the Sabbath a burden - a yoke of bondage! You've made it so confusing and convoluted. Only a Ph.D. could understand this nonsense. It's too confusing. No wonder other Christians reject it.

The issues are in the future.

I guarantee you that unless you purge yourself of this legalistic, self-righteous mindset, you will glady receive the mark of the beast (the seal of the false gospel). After all this sign will be accepted by all who reject the true gospel - the truth as it is "in Christ"!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

How would you know if someone were living Christ's life of selflessness, or do you just assume that no one is doing it?

"All have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God"

That means of course that in your thinking, it is absolutely impossible for anyone to live Christ's life of selflessness. This in turn means that you will never listen to anyone, since you said you will only listen if I begin to live Christ's life of selflessness.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Remember that in the NT the weekly Sabbath was taken for granted.

An assumption

Where do you find evidence in the New Testament that the weekly Sabbath was denied or rejected?

Do you believe that the Sabbath was done away with under the New Covenant?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The bottom line is that God commanded, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... in it you shall not do any work."

Yes, under the Old Covenant!

Do you believe that the Sabbath commandment is no longer relevant under the New Covenant?

If so, where do you find evidence that the Christian today is released from obeying the Ten Commandments? Where specifically in the Bible does it say believers are released from any obligation to keep the Sabbath holy?

[John317]

[John317]

[John317]

I don't demand anything. It is God who gave the commandment.

I do believe that we ought to obey God's word, don't you? Look what happened to Adam and Eve when they didn't obey God's command. They explained it away, and it has cost humanity and Christ death and suffering.

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but you overlook those other statements such as:

Luke 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor.

Jesus never lived for Himself. His highest ambition was to be servant of all. I don't see you pushing this?[/quote']

I am talking about the Sabbath because that is the subject of the thread.

If you open up a thread about being servant of all, then I will write about that.

Are you under conviction that God wants you to sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor? Maybe you are, but I do not understand that verse to be teaching that. And I have never read a single Bible scholar or teacher who believe that this is the meaning of the text.

If you are under conviction that God wants you to do it, then by all means do it. In fact, why aren't doing it? Why haven't you already done it if this is really what you believe?

But that is not what Jesus said or meant. I believe you demonstrate a lack of understanding of the text when you say that Jesus meant for all believers to sell everything they own and give the money to the poor. For one thing, Jesus is talking to his disciples as he was sending them out to preach the gospel, and what he said about selling everything they had was not a command to all his followers from that moment forward. The principle is making the kingdom first in one's life, and not one's possessions. God plainly does not require that everyone sell all their possessions.

Did Peter do it or Paul or James or John? No, and the reason is that it is an extreme, unreasonable, unscriptural position.

There, therefore. is huge difference between the very clear Sabbath commandment in the middle of the Ten Commandments and Luke 12: 32 regarding the selling of one's possessions.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, exactly right. It is a symbol. God said it is a sign that Yahweh is the One who sanctifies His people.

Sorry...that's from the book of the law, not the moral law.

It also doesn't point to a finished work where God is at rest.

Doesn't Jack Sequeira believe that the Sabbath is a sign between God and believers today that He is the God who sanctifies us? It's in the prophets, such as Ezekiel, the same book that talks about the promise of the New Covenant. We are sanctified under the New Covenant, are we not?

Is the Sabbath part of the New Covenant?

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Under the New Covenant the law is no longer an exterior law written merely on stone, but it [the law - all 10] is written on our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.

Will you please quit perpetuating that lie. Again, if the Sabbath were written in the heart there would be no controversy. E.G., all Christians know adultery is sin, etc.

Do you all Christians obey the law that God is writing in their hearts?

No, and therefore it is no proof that the Sabbath is not part of the law written on the heart simply because they disobey it or not aware of it. For God does not force the law on our hearts. We become aware of the law of God by studying in His word. The Holy Spirit uses the word of God to write His law on our hearts. It doesn't come without our permission. The law is written on our hearts and minds by doing God's will and by studying it and by praying that God will write it in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. You can resist God's law. Remember that the man walking in the flesh does not submit to God's law. It is obvious then that God cannot write His law on a man's heart until he submits to God's will and gives God permission to write it there.

Romans 8: 7.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

On top of this, it is necessary to consider the fact that the most ancient and best manuscript evidence shows the original of Deut. 5 included the memorial of creation. Those Dead Sea scrolls are dated over 1000 years before the previous texts-- the Masoretic-- on which Old Testament translations are based. (The oldest Masoretic text is dated to about 900 AD, but most are dated much later.)

You make the Sabbath a burden - a yoke of bondage! You've made it so confusing and convoluted. Only a Ph.D. could understand this nonsense. It's too confusing. No wonder other Christians reject it.

What here is confusing and hard to understand?

I don't know how I've made it a burden or how I have made it so confusing and convoluted. All I am saying to do is obey the straightforward commandments of God. A child could understand it. Just obey what God says to do in His commandments and in the Gospels. Walk as Jesus walked. 1 John 2: 6.

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ROBERT-- The issues are in the future.

The issue of whether we will obey God in all that we know to be right-- that is an issue that's being answered now, every day of our lives.

It is true that the Sabbath/Sunday issues will intensify and become clearer, but the issue of obeying God in everything the Holy Spirit has convicted us of, is going on right now.

And it is important to tell people about the Sabbath-- that faith in Christ does not release us from obedience to God's moral law-- so that they will be aware of these important things when the issues are made clearer by the crisis that's coming on the world.

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ROBERT-- I guarantee you that unless you purge yourself of this legalistic, self-righteous mindset, you will glady receive the mark of the beast (the seal of the false gospel). After all this sign will be accepted by all who reject the true gospel - the truth as it is "in Christ"!

In what way do you believe I've rejected the true gospel?

What legalistic, self-righteous mindset are you referring to? Are you talking about what I am teaching about the Sabbath as connected to God's law?

Perhaps you see it that way because you believe that faith releases us from the moral law of God. Therefore, any mention of God's law causes you to consider the Sabbath as legalism. It seems to me that your idea on this would make Jesus Himself a legalist, for He often called people to obey the Father's commandments.

Do you yourself have a legalistic, self-righteous mindset?

I do not make accusations of that nature. I believe in sharing the Bible and letting the Holy Spirit do the convicting of sin. But I am wondering if you think you are different.

Do you believe that Ellen White's beliefs and understandings would have caused her to accept the mark of the beast?

[John317]

Here's a wonderful book that had a great influence on Jack Sequeira. It is called The Gospel In Creation by E. J. Waggoner, and it shows that the Sabbath is most definitely part of the gospel. You'll get a lot out of the book.

http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_GOSPEL_IN_CREATION.pdf

You will not want to miss this book, especially the last chapter which speaks of the Sabbath rest.

Below is just some of this wonderful book--

Note how inseparably Christ is connected with the Sabbath. It is by Him that all things were created, and that

they all are upheld. But the works of God reveal His eternal power and Godhead; and Christ is the power of God,

and in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Therefore the works of creation show the power and

divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Sabbath is the great memorial of the wonderful works of God in Christ, and

so it is the great sign of the divinity of Christ. To keep the Sabbath as God appointed it at creation is to

acknowledge the divinity of Christ. Just to the extent that one fails to keep the Sabbath of the Lord in spirit and in

truth, does he fail to recognize the divinity of Christ and to receive the benefit that comes from the fact of His

divinity.

This is indicated in the words of Christ to the Pharisees who unjustly accused Him and His disciples of

breaking the Sabbath, because they satisfied their hunger on that day, and because He healed a man on the

Sabbath. Said He, "The Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day" (Matthew 12:8). It is no small thing that He

is Lord of the Sabbath day. To be Lord of the Sabbath day means that He is the Creator of the heavens and the

earth--that He is Lord of all.

The Sabbath is for the purpose of keeping in mind the creative power of God, which is His distinguishing

characteristic. But creative power is the power of the gospel, so that that which celebrates creation also

celebrates redemption. Christ is the Redeemer, because in Him were all things created. He bestows the grace of

God to men by His creative power. The power that saves men is the power that created the heavens and the

earth. So when the psalmist says that the Lord has made a memorial for His wonderful works, he immediately

adds, "The Lord is gracious and full of compassion." In Christ the grace of the Father is revealed. "And the Word

was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father),

full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). He imparts His grace, which affords help in time of need, by the same

mysterious and mighty power by which He created the earth; by the same power by which the sun's rays impart

life to the plants on the earth.

[John317]

Continuation of E. J. Waggoner's Gospel in Creation--

Notice that we are to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. It is holy, and so we are to keep it. We are

not to make it holy, for that would be impossible; only God could do that. No act of ours can add to, or detract

from, its holiness. Neither are we to make ourselves holy, so that we may keep it properly. That we could not do.

But the same power that sanctified the Sabbath day will sanctify us. That power is the power that made the

universe. It is creative power by which we are to be sanctified, for Christ is the Creator, and He is made unto us

wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. God has given us the Sabbath--the memorial of

His creative power--that we may know that He is the God that sanctifies us.

This is the rest that Christ gives to all that come to Him. He says, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are

heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart:

and ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matthew 11:28, 29). We are to come and rest upon the word that upholds

the universe. This is what the Sabbath means. It commemorates creation; but redemption is simply the power that

created all things, working to restore them. So the Sabbath marks the highest gospel attainments.

We have seen that the Sabbath was given in Eden, and that it is a part of that rest upon which God entered.

When kept in spirit and in truth, it is a bit of Eden preserved for us through all the changes wrought by the curse.

And as God made not the earth in vain, but formed it to be inhabited by the same class of people whom He first

placed upon it, so it will yet be. Therefore, the Sabbath is not only a portion of the original Eden preserved for us,

but it is also identical with that rest that will be enjoyed by the saints of God throughout eternity. Heaven does

indeed begin upon earth for those who fully accept the Saviour, and who give themselves to Him without reserve.

The Sabbath--a fragment of paradise--spans the chasm from Eden lost till Eden restored, and as it is the

memorial of the first, it is the pledge of the second.

........God is Spirit, therefore the rest that He took after creation was spiritual rest. There was no physical weariness

incurred in creating the earth. "The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not,

neither is weary" (Isaiah 40:28). Creation was not a physical work; it was wholly spiritual. God spake, and it was.

And His word is spirit. Therefore, to keep God's Sabbath, or rest, is to enjoy spiritual rest. The Sabbath is not

designed for mere physical rest, but for spiritual. It has a higher meaning than is commonly attached to it. True,

we are enjoined from doing our own labor on that day, but the cessation from physical labor on the Sabbath day is

but an emblem of the spiritual rest which God gives to those who accept Him as the Creator of all things. Without

spiritual rest there is no true Sabbath-keeping. The Lord says that they who turn away their feet from the Sabbath,

and do not do their own ways on His holy day, but call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable, shall

delight themselves in the Lord. (Isaiah 58:13, 14). A man may refrain from labor on the seventh day as

scrupulously as ever the strictest Pharisee did; yet if he does not know and delight in the Lord Jesus Christ, he is

not keeping the Sabbath of the Lord. True Sabbath rest can be found only in Christ.

Let it not be forgotten that the Sabbath was given to man in Eden before sin entered into the world. Work was

given to Adam, but it was not wearisome labor. Labor is no part of the curse, but weariness from labor is. It was

not until after the fall that it was said to Adam, "Cursed is the ground for thy sake: in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all

the days of thy life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; in

the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust

thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:17-19). All this was because he had sinned. If he had

remained loyal to God, the earth would have yielded bountifully only that which is good, and labor would have

been a pleasure. Yet the sabbath would have been observed, not as a rest for the body, which would never have

become weary, but as a season of delightful communion with God.

[John317]

The Gospel in Creation by E.J. Waggoner shows the relationship between the Sabbath and the gospel--

THE OLD TESTAMENT IS THE GOSPEL: Not only so, but the Old Testament contains the gospel. In the

verse following the one last quoted we read, "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us

they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you

with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven." That is, the prophets, Moses among them, ministered the very

same things that were preached by the apostles, namely the gospel. Since the gospel of God is "concerning His

Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 1:1-3), and the Jews would necessarily have believe in Jesus if they had

believed Moses, because Moses wrote of Christ, it follows that what Moses wrote was the gospel.

THE GOSPEL IN CREATION: The first thing that Moses wrote, through the inspiration of the Spirit of God,

was the story of creation. That, therefore, is one of the things through which we are to receive hope and comfort.

Why is it that we can receive hope and comfort through the story of the creation? Because that story contains the

gospel. A few words will serve to establish this fact before we proceed to study the lessons in detail.

The declaration of the apostle, that the gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"

(Romans 1:16), is familiar to all who have ever heard the gospel preached. The gospel is the manifestation of

God's power put forth to save men. The same thing is stated in substance by the apostle Peter when he speaks of

the inheritance reserved in heaven for those "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" (1

Peter 1:5).

CREATION, THE MEASURE OF GOD'S POWER: But what is the measure of the power of God? Wherein is

it seen in a tangible form? Read Romans 1:20, where we are told that ever since the creation of the world, the

invisible things of God, even His eternal power and Godhead, are clearly seen, being understood by the things

that are made. It is in creation, therefore, that the power of God is to be seen by everybody. But the power of God in the line of salvation is the gospel. Therefore the works of creation teach the gospel. This is declared in Psalm

19, where we read, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handiwork. Day unto

day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language; without these

their voice is heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

The gospel is the power of God, and the power of God is manifest in the things that He has made; therefore,

the psalmist is speaking of the gospel, which the heavens teach. That this is so is shown by the apostle Paul in

Romans 10:15-18. "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of

good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord who hath believed our report? So

then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their

sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the end of the world." The apostle is here speaking about the

gospel, which, he says, all have not obeyed. Then he declares all have heard, and as proof that they all have

heard, he quotes from Psalm 19: "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the

world." Their words concerning what? Why, concerning the gospel, of course. Thus we have a plain statement

that the heavens do preach the gospel. There is no man so illiterate that he cannot read the gospel; no man so

deaf nor so isolated that he cannot hear a gospel sermon. This truth will be more evident as we proceed.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, exactly right. It is a symbol. God said it is a sign that Yahweh is the One who sanctifies His people.

Sorry...that's from the book of the law, not the moral law.

It also doesn't point to a finished work where God is at rest.

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Under the New Covenant the law is no longer an exterior law written merely on stone, but it [the law - all 10] is written on our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.

Will you please quit perpetuating that lie. Again, if the Sabbath were written in the heart there would be no controversy. E.G., all Christians know adultery is sin, etc.

It's not a matter of knowing adultery is a sin. It is a matter of obeying God's will. Lots of people know God's law and hate or live in disobedience of it. That is not having it written on the heard and mind.

I can see why you misunderstand these things. You apparently think that everyone who accepts Christ automatically has the law written on the heart. You couldn't be more wrong. Having the law written on the heart does not happen instantaneously. It's a process. It comes from habitual practicing of righteousness (i.e., right doing) through the power of the Holy Spirit in the life. This can only happen because of total surrender of all of our life to Him. Having the law of God written in the heart results in loving, joyful obedience to our Creator and Savior. It means carrying out the will of God when we are unaware of it because we think of it as doing our own will. So our will and God's will are intertwined. It comes from the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Please read below:

Special Testimony to Battle Creek Church (1898), page 32, paragraph 1

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Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave his life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute: he died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. He suffered the full penalty of a broken law for the whole world. This he did, not that men might continue in transgression, but that they might return to their loyalty and keep God's commandments, and his law as the apple of their eye.

Do you believe it is possible for anyone to be loyal and keep God's commandments?

If you deny that anyone can keep God's commandments, what does that mean?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

On top of this, it is necessary to consider the fact that the most ancient and best manuscript evidence shows the original of Deut. 5 included the memorial of creation. Those Dead Sea scrolls are dated over 1000 years before the previous texts-- the Masoretic-- on which Old Testament translations are based. (The oldest Masoretic text is dated to about 900 AD, but most are dated much later.)

The issues are in the future.

Here's the Spirit of prophecy on how the Sabbath becomes the issue just before the Second Coming of Christ:

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Two Great Classes of Christians

I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound

was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Rev. 13:3.

In homage to the Papacy the United States will not be alone. The

influence of Rome in the countries that once acknowledged her dominion,

is still far from being destroyed.

In the last conflict the Sabbath will be the special point of

controversy throughout all Christendom. Secular rulers and religious

leaders will unite to enforce the observance of the Sunday; and as

milder measures fail, the most oppressive laws will be enacted. It will

be urged that the few who stand in opposition to an institution of the

church and a law of the land ought not to be tolerated. . . . Romanism

in the Old World, and apostate Protestantism in the New, will pursue a

similar course toward those who honor the divine precepts.

The so-called Christian world is to be the theater of great and decisive

actions. Men in authority will enact laws controlling the conscience,

after the example of the Papacy. Babylon will make all nations drink of

the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Every nation will be involved.

[Rev. 18:3-7 quoted.]

The warning of the third angel [of Revelation 14] . . . is represented

in the prophecy as being proclaimed with a loud voice, by an angel

flying in the midst of heaven; and it will command the attention of the

world.

In the issue of the contest all Christendom will be divided into two

great classes--those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of

Jesus, and those who worship the beast and his image and receive his

mark. Although church and state will unite their power to compel "all,

both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16),

to receive "the mark of the beast," yet the people of God will not

receive it. The prophet of Patmos beholds "them that had gotten the

victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over

the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of

God" and singing the song of Moses and the Lamb. Revelation 15:2, 3.

>From Maranatha - Page 188

According to the above, the keeping of the commandments of God (all Ten Commandments) goes together with keeping the faith of Jesus. Also, it is obvious that people of the world are taught about the issues regarding the Sabbath, the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. IT IS A SPECIAL POINT OF CONTROVERSY.

Ellen White received visions about the importance of writing about the Sabbath and publishing papers and teaching the people about the Sabbath during the 1850s and 60s, through the early 1900s. Surely that shows that the Sabbath is to be preached now and not at some far off period of time. To believe that the Sabbath won't be important until still some time in the future, we would have to throw out the Spirit of prophecy and deny the leading of God in the development and rise of the SDA church during the first hundred years.

There is no question that Satan would have us put off the preaching and teaching and keeping of the Sabbath. In fact, Ellen White speaks to that very point very urgently.

Have you read the GC and do you believe it? It's one of my favorite books, and it was also the book which Mrs. White felt was her most important. As you know, she completed the last edition of it late in her ministry, so that no one can argue reasonably that it was not a product of her mature thinking.

[John317]

What do you think of this statement and description?

The Threefold Union of Religion

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the

dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the

false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,

which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to

gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev. 16:13,

14.

By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of

the law of God, our nation [the United States] will disconnect herself

fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand

across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall

reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the

influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every

principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government,

and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and

delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous

working of Satan and that the end is near.

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday

sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the

former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of

sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be

foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of

spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the

Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this

country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of

conscience. ..

Papists, Protestants, and worldling will alike accept the form of

godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand

movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the

long-expected millennium.

When our nation [the United States] shall so abjure the principles of

its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act

join hands with popery; it will be nothing else than giving life to the

tyranny which has long been eagerly watching its opportunity to spring

again into active despotism.

>From Maranatha - Page 190

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

An assumption

Where do you find evidence in the New Testament that the weekly Sabbath was denied or rejected?