Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[Robert]

When the Holy Spirit is in the life, and when we understand the purpose of God's law and the Sabbath, we are excited about doing God's will.

I don't see you too excited about giving up on your love of self and your self-seeking! Since the law condemns especially these sins that means no heaven for you! That's bondage....You are bound to the law and it say you must die eternally. No resurrection!

Rob

[Robert]

How did I bear false witness?

And how am I trying to cover up? Cover up what?

Oh stop the self-righteous act. You said died to sin when it says died to the law. John, John, John (Rob's shaking his head)....you kill me!

[Robert]

WE have to make up our minds whether we believe what Robert is saying or whether we believe what the Spirit of prophecy says. They can't both be right.

Here are just a few of his statements:

I thought John wasn't into personal attacks?

Anyway, folks, John's lifted my quotes out of context. He's trying to paint me as a devil. He can't see because he is confined in his box of traditionalism. He's confused and he desires to place you under bondage. Run!

[Woody]

Quote:

What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time.

I don't believe what I am seeing. I have read plenty of posts from this author that are very much to the contrary.

[Woody]

Quote:

Because it will result in the believer's eternal loss if he accepts it and acts upon it.

From what I've read ... Rob loves the Lord and through his faith in Jesus ... I have no choice but to believe that he is saved just as much as I am. We are not saved by our knowledge or lack of knowledge.

I resent any implication that Rob would be lost.

[Woody]

Quote:

It means you have been delivered from "obey and live, disobey and die".

This is the key. Thanks Rob.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Is the Sabbath commandment the only one we are released from?

No, all the law....

I know that sounds like heresy to you, but if you make one commandment binding you must make all of them binding. That's what Paul states in Gal 3:10.

Is Paul saying that Christians can be saved in God's kingdom while they are practicing sins, such as those in 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10? Doesn't God require all people to obey the commandments regarding immorality, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, stealing, greediness, drunkenness, slandering, extortion?

Are you saying that you believe faith in Christ releases us from obedience to those laws?

Gal. 3: 10 is about those those who rely in law-keeping for justification and salvation. Paul is not saying we should not obey God's moral law. In fact, he specifically denies that faith gives us permission to disobey God's moral law. That is a misunderstanding of the gospel. The gospel causes us to be conformed to the will of God, not to sin more.

Study the following:

Quote:

There are two errors against which the children of God-particularly

those who have just come to trust in His grace-especially need to guard.

The first . . . is that of looking to their own works, trusting to

anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who

is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is

attempting an impossibility. . . .

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ

releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we

become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do

with our redemption. . . . If the law is written in the heart, will it

not shape the life? . . . Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is

faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ,

which enables us to render obedience. . . . SC

The following is taken from "The Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible," which, of course, is not SDA--

Quote:

It must be stressed that the moral law, as summarized in the Ten Commandments and detailed in the ethical teaching of both Testaments, is one coherent law, given to be a code of practice for God's people of every age. The Spirit is given to empower law-keeping and to make us more and more like Christ, the archetypal law-keeper (Matt. 5: 17). This law-keeping is in fact the fulfilling of our human nature, and Scripture holds out no hope of salvation to any who do not seek to turn from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6: 9-11; Rev. 21: 8). p. 1828

Quote:

How can there by any consequences for any violation of God's law?

Quote:

ROBERT-- You died to the law in the body of Christ. The law sees you as dead and hence the law can no longer condemn you.

Dying to the law in the body of Christ does not give you permission to violate God's moral law. That is a perversion of the true gospel. The Bible makes this very clear. The Holy Spirit in the life leads us to obey God, not disobey.

If you practice sin, and do not repent of it nor confess it, you will lose your justification and salvation. There are conditions to retaining justification and salvation. The Bible does not support the false doctrine of "once saved, always saved."

Quote:

God has not given His Son to a life of suffering and ignominy and a shameful death to release man from obedience to the divine law. F.W. 30.

While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. F.W. 52.

[John317]

Quote:

What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time.

I don't believe what I am seeing. I have read plenty of posts from this author that are very much to the contrary.

Are "saints"-- i.e., the sanctified, the holy-- sinless?

If they are not sinless, then my statement above is obviously true.

Study 1 John 1: 5-10, comparing the red with the blue:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

[Robert]

Quote:

What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time.

I don't believe what I am seeing. I have read plenty of posts from this author that are very much to the contrary.

"In Christ" I am righteous and simultaneously in myself I am a sinner.

[John317]

Quote:

Because it will result in the believer's eternal loss if he accepts it and acts upon it.

From what I've read ... Rob loves the Lord and through his faith in Jesus ... I have no choice but to believe that he is saved just as much as I am. We are not saved by our knowledge or lack of knowledge.

I resent any implication that Rob would be lost.

I'm not saying that Rob is not going to be saved. I don't know this and I can't know this.

All I am saying is that if we believe that faith releases us from obedience to the law of God, and if we practice that belief-- by disobeying God and not repenting of it-- we won't be saved.

Salvation and retaining our justification has conditions.

Would Abraham have been the father of the faithful if he'd spent his life in disobedience to God?

Quote:

It is impossible for an individual to experience Bible sanctification while he hold that if he believes in Christ, it is immaterial whether he obeys God's law or disobeys it. F.W. 31.

The minister tells his hearers that they cannot keep the law of God. "It is not binding upon man in our day," he says. [sound familiar?] "You must believe in Christ; He will save you; only believe." Thus he teaches them to make feeling their criterion and gives them no intelligent faith. That minister may profess to be very sincere, but he is seeking to quiet the troubled conscience with a false hope. F.W. 32

[Robert]

Gal. 3:10 is about those those who rely in law-keeping for justification and salvation. Paul is not saying we should not obey God's moral law.

[John317]

I thought John wasn't into personal attacks?

Quote:

Quote:

Anyway' date=' folks, John's lifted my quotes out of context. He's trying to paint me as a devil. He can't see because he is confined in his box of traditionalism. He's confused and he desires to place you under bondage. Run!

How does the context make your words mean anything different?

I am trying to understand what you believe. Show me that you do not believe what your words as quoted mean.

For instance,

on Post 192071-- 10/10/08-- I asked if the seventh day is blessed and holy now. Your reply was:

ROBERT-- The day isn't holy...... Days aren't holy.... .

Do you believe the seventh day of the week is holy now?

Does Redwood believe the seventh day of the week is holy now?

I also asked if it matters which day of the week we keep holy. Your answer was:

ROBERT-- It doesn't....

Do you believe it does matter which day of the week we keep holy?

On post #191977 (Was Sabbath Just for the Jews); 10-10-08; I said that Sabbath-breaking is a sin, and you said:

ROBERT-- No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin!...

I'd like to know what you really believe. If you believe Sabbath-breaking is a sin, tell me that's what you believe. I am only going by what you have said.

How is the following not accurate? Do you believe that faith does not release us from obedience to the moral law?

You have said over and over again that faith releases us from obedience to the moral law of God. Compare that with what the Spirit of prophecy says:

Quote:

There are two errors against which the children of God-particularly

those who have just come to trust in His grace-especially need to guard.

The first . . . is that of looking to their own works, trusting to

anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who

is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is

attempting an impossibility. . . .

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ

releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we

become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do

with our redemption. . . . If the law is written in the heart, will it

not shape the life? . . . Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is

faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ,

which enables us to render obedience. . . . SC [/quote']

I have no interest whatsoever in misunderstanding or misquoting you. If these things don't accurately and fairly reflect your viewpoints, please feel free to set the record straight.

[Robert]

If by "binding," you mean that the moral law-- including the Sabbath-- is the standard of Christian living, yes, then, I do certainly believe it is binding.

Let's get somethings perfectly straight. Because I have accepted my deliverance from the law in the humanity of Christ (which is my humanity) I am no longer under the jurisdiction of the law. The law is not binding on me. It can't demand anything of me because as far as it is concerned I am dead, killed by the law itself. That's why Paul says,

Romans 4:14 For if those who live under the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. But where there is no law there is no transgression.

Has the law been abolished? Has the law been made void? I'm not talking about 10 brief rules written on stone, I'm talking about the spirit of the law...that which Christ expounded on in the NT - i.e., "the entire law" that is summed in the words, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

The answer is "no"! What was done away with was my humanity from Adam. Hence "I" died to the law (it demanded my death) in the body of Christ. Why? "That our body of sin [our sinful life] might be done away with [destroyed], that we should no longer be slaves to sin." [Rom 6:6]

So "in Christ" my humanity...your humanity was set free from indwelling sin - the law of iniquity. At the resurrection Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven. This is our humanity to be received at the 2nd coming if we remain in the faith.

Because I have accepted this truth (the gospel) Christ represents me perfect in Himself. The law can no longer touch me because it sees me perfect "in Christ"....It sees my old life dead and gone.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Gal. 3:10 is about those those who rely in law-keeping for justification and salvation. Paul is not saying we should not obey God's moral law.

But then you say if I don't obey that I am lost. So, Paul is talking to folks just like yourself, John!

It doesn't matter if you say that you are not attempting to be justified by law because you are still making obedience to the law the condition of salvation. You can't see this....

The restoration of the gospel will bring about a clear understanding of the relationship between law and gospel, so this is a very important topic we're discussing here, wouldn't you agree?

You've raised a legitimate question and issue. It boils down to the question of whether faith in Jesus Christ releases us from obedience to the moral law. You say that our faith in Christ does indeed do this.

I don't believe that the NT teaches this, and we both know that the Spirit of prophecy does not teach this.

Do you believe that Jack Sequeira teaches that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the Ten Commandments, or the moral law?

If you know of a clear statement to that effect, would you please post it?

[Robert]

For instance,

on Post 192071-- 10/10/08-- I asked if the seventh day is blessed and holy now. Your reply was:

ROBERT-- The day isn't holy...... Days aren't holy.... .

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But then you say if I don't obey that I am lost. So' date=' Paul is talking to folks just like yourself, John!

It doesn't matter if you say that you are not attempting to be justified by law because you are still making obedience to the law the condition of salvation. You can't see this.... [/quote']

It boils down to the question of whether faith in Jesus Christ releases us from obedience to the moral law. You say that our faith in Christ does indeed do this.

I've said that I am no longer under the law's jurisdiction. How you interpret that is up to you. If you make one rule a condition of salvation, you must make "the entire law" a condition.

What do I mean?

Go to Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery [i.e., "obey and live, disobey and die"]....13 For you were called to freedom [see verse 1] , brethren; only do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Okay...let's say I don't steal, kill, commit adultery and covet through the Spirit. That's some pretty impressive surrender, right? My life is in harmony with the principle, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” But "harmony" and "fulfillment" are two different concepts.

I believe when Christ says, "If you love me keep my commandments" He has "harmony" in mind.

On the other hand Christ alone fulfilled the law. His life was one of total self-denial from the cradle to the grave.

So I might be in harmony with the law, but am I free of all self-love and self-seeking? What does Paul say? No!

So I might be in harmony with the law, but am I fulfilling the law? Am I loving my neighbor as I love myself in all areas? Well, if you say "yes" then my neighbor would be wealthy for the object of my ambition would be his wealth, not my own. I would live for him.... I would live to serve.

Are any of us doing this? Not that I know of....Are we fulfilling the law then? No! Are we in harmony with the law if we are not killing, stealing, etc? Yes, but we aren't fulfilling it.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

For instance,

on Post 192071-- 10/10/08-- I asked if the seventh day is blessed and holy now. Your reply was:

ROBERT-- The day isn't holy...... Days aren't holy.... .

Think, John...think! The 7th day is a symbol of a truth. What does it point to? That truth is holy! No day, in and of itself, is holy. That's impossible! At creation the 7th-day pointed to the event when God rested from His perfect and sinless work. The day points to God's rest - His perfect sinless work. That, His work was perfect - i.e., holy....

Does the day point to God's rest and His perfect work of creation? Yes, of course, but let us not forget that the Bible clearly says that the seventh day is holy and blessed.

Mark 2: 57, 58 shows that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of all mankind and the blessing and holiness of the seventh day still remains and has never been removed or revoked.

There's a blessing in the day that we can only obtain on the seventh day. He did not bless or make holy any other day of the week.

Does Genesis 2: 1-3 say God blessed and made holy a truth?

Does Exodus 20: 8-11 say that we are to remember to keep a truth holy?

Why cannot the seventh day-- as time-- be holy since God made it holy?

Are you saying that God did not, or cannot, make the 7th day holy?

Remember that Exodus 20:8-11 specifically says that God blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. So the seventh-day Sabbath has always been holy. It is holy time. That means it is set apart by God from the other 6 days for holy purposes. It is not an ordinary day.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Think, John...think! The 7th day is a symbol of a truth. What does it point to? That truth is holy! No day, in and of itself, is holy. That's impossible! At creation the 7th-day pointed to the event when God rested from His perfect and sinless work. The day points to God's rest - His perfect sinless work. That, His work was perfect - i.e., holy....[/quote']

Does Genesis 2: 1-3 say God blessed and made holy a truth?

Again, the Sabbath points to God's work....That's holy!

I think you are worshiping a "day", which is idolatry!

Rob

[Robert]

So the seventh-day Sabbath has always been holy. It is holy time.

Oh boy...now clocks are holy!

Rob

[John317]

[Robert]

In fact, refusal of any of the commandments of God (i.e., moral law) is a sin of unbelief NOW.

Then you are lost, i.e., according to your own theology! It's been nice knowing you, John!

How so? The law commands you to love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. There's no self-love and self-seeking in God's agape love. Since you are failing to fulfill God's law...i.e., God's will -you are under its curse. You have fallen from grace. Hence no resurrection for you....No mansions...no streets of gold....The gates are closed. John isn't allowed in for he isn't a doer of the law!

Might you reconsider your theology? Yes, you might....

[Robert]

Now you are saying Sabbath-breaking is a sin of unbelief.

Corrections noted

Now you are saying Sabbath-breaking will be a sin of unbelief.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

So the seventh-day Sabbath has always been holy. It is holy time.

Oh boy...now clocks are holy!

Rob

No, not clocks. TIME. Clocks only measure time. That is like getting confused between a body's temperature and a thermometer.

The day is holy. What does that mean?

For one thing, we manifest our loyalty to God by keeping it holy as He told us to do.

For another, it is holy because a holy God gave it to a people who are to use that period of time for their relationship to Him.

Just like you devote one day a year to your relationship to your wife. What would your wife think if instead of being with her on your anniversary, you spent the whole day elsewhere with someone else?

So the Sabbath is holy time devoted to God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Now you are saying Sabbath-breaking is a sin of unbelief.

Corrections noted

Now you are saying Sabbath-breaking will be a sin of unbelief.

Sabbath-breaking is a sin of ignorance for most people, because they don't know anything about it. Most people are not even Christians and have never studied the Bible. They are sinning but are unaware of it. If they are sincere and want to know God and the truth, God will help them to learn the truth. God uses Christians to convey the truth to others.

It is a sin unbelief if we are convicted of the Sabbath truth and refuse it. That is the same with any of the commandments. There are people who do not realize it is a sin to look at porn. As they spend time with God in prayer and Bible study, and as they discuss these things with Christians or listen to sermons, etc., the Holy Spirit convicts them of more sins that they need to get rid of. The Sabbath is no different.

[Robert]

Sabbath-breaking is a sin of ignorance for most people, because they don't know anything about it.