Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Typical spin...fear tactics....

If the Sabbath is now the seal of God, then Sunday is now the seal of the man of sin. The issues are future, but unlike the Holy Spirit, you are forcing the issue now. [/quote']

The issues are now, not some time in the future. The issue of whether we obey God is not something that is merely for some point in the future.

You push the Sabbath, but you fail at loving your neighbor as yourself. Well, your Sabbath keeping won't save you....There's only one type of obedience: Christ's life!

I grow very weary of your constant rant...your constant do this...do that, but that which you fail to do (namely, live Christ's life) you do not push. You can't have it both ways!

[Robert]

Sunday is even now the mark or sign of the authority of the man of sin, the papacy.

"No one has yet received the mark of the beast" [EGW]

Why not? The issues are unclear and future.

[Robert]

There is no question that if we have true love for our neighbor we will not do any of the things the commandments of God tells us not to do. Do you agree? For instance, we won't steal from him or be dishonest with him, etc.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sunday is even now the mark or sign of the authority of the man of sin, the papacy.

"No one has yet received the mark of the beast" [EGW]

Why not? The issues are unclear and future.

[Woody]

[Robert]

Would you say that there is any commandment of God that Jesus did not fulfill for us?

He lived a life with no self-love....His love was always outward!

Now here's a question: Did Jesus keep the Sabbath?

[Robert]

Rob ... you need to finish the quote for all to see ...

Quote:

"No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion."

What's the test?

John will say it's the law or maybe the Sabbath.

But the test is which gospel do you accept?

1] The everlasting gospel (restored by the third angel)

2] Or all the false gospels rolled in what we call Babylon?

If you pick # 1 then the Sabbath will be the seal of your choice.

If you pick # 2 then the mark or seal of the beast will reveal your choice. The days reveal which gospel you have picked! The days don't save, the gospel saves. The days simply point to your choice. They confirm your choice.

Make sense?

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sunday is even now the mark or sign of the authority of the man of sin, the papacy.

"No one has yet received the mark of the beast" [EGW]

Why not? The issues are unclear and future.

They are unclear to most people, that's true.

But are they unclear to you?

You and I know the history and origin of both the Sabbath and Sunday. We know that there is no sacredness attached to the first day of the week and that it's all man-made.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"No one has yet received the mark of the beast" [EGW']

Why not? The issues are unclear and future.

You and I know the history and origin of both the Sabbath and Sunday. We know that there is no sacredness attached to the first day of the week and that it's all man-made.

If you mean Sunday is not the Sabbath, I agree....But did the Papacy change the Sabbath to refute the gospel? I don't think so because for one the gospel had already been perverted. Do you know how?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Rob. I think there is no question that "faith in God fulfills" the obedience of ALL commands that we are called to obey. Would you say that there is any commandment of God that Jesus did not fulfill for us?

We are saved by faith ... not by the doing of ANY command ANY where in the Bible. Would you not agree?[/quote']

That's a very good point, Redwood. Jesus kept the Sabbath for us. But one thing he didn't do was keep Sunday for us.

So, when we are in right relationship with God, and have a faith-based relationship with Christ, Christ's perfect Sabbath-keeping is put to our account.

Not only is the perfect righteousness of Christ given to us as a gift, but the Holy Spirit is given to us so that in our actual lives, we are brought more and more into harmony with God's will. We become more like Christ, walking as He walked. 1 John 1: 5-7 and 2: 3-6; 2 Cor. 3: 18.

What shouldn't be forgotten is that faith does not release us from obedience to the moral law. Both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach that true faith and genuine justification produce works of faith and bring us into conformity to God's commandments. Genuine justification does not result in more disobedience but in obedience.

[John317]

The days reveal which gospel you have picked! The days don't save, the gospel saves. The days simply point to your choice. They confirm your choice.

Did the tree save Adam and Eve? No. But the tree revealed a choice.

Same with the Sabbath. The issue reveals who we worship and obey. The test shows whether we belong to God or to Satan. That is what the choice of Adam and Eve revealed: it showed that they changed who they would obey.

Quote:

The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (RH April 23, 1901)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

You and I know the history and origin of both the Sabbath and Sunday. We know that there is no sacredness attached to the first day of the week and that it's all man-made.

Quote:

ROBERT-- If you mean Sunday is not the Sabbath, I agree....But did the Papacy change the Sabbath to refute the gospel? I don't think so because for one the gospel had already been perverted. Do you know how?

The gospel has been perverted in a number of different ways. The first way is described in Galatians 1. But Satan doesn't care how it is perverted, as long as it is perverted.

The Spirit of prophecy speaks of one of the great perversions, and it is the teaching that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the commandments of God. A person can go from one extreme to another-- from belief that we must earn justification by works of law, to belief that our life has nothing to do with salvation. Both are dangerous doctrines.

It's not enough to say merely that Sunday is not the Sabbath. Probably the majority of Sunday keepers know that Sunday is not the Sabbath. You also know that Sunday is not sacred to God. It is a common workday.

It doesn't matter what motive the Papacy had for wanting to change the Sabbath. One of the reasons for the change was to make it easier to bring Sunday-worshipping pagans into the church.

But the belief that God's moral law can be changed by man does indeed change the gospel. The gospel includes the reason Jesus came the first time and died. Did his death mean the moral law can be changed? (Jesus specifically denied this in Matt. 5.)

In the same way, the gospel is changed by the belief that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to God's moral law.

The "daily" of Daniel 8: 11, 12 refers to the gospel which the little horn power takes away and casts down. It's the continual ministry of Christ, which is the gospel. This ministry of Christ, including His sacrifice on the cross and His High Priestly ministry, is the only solution to the sin problem; but the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8 seeks to persuade the world that its human priesthood can take away sins. It seeks to get the eyes of sinners off of Christ and onto human priests.

The man of sin changed the definition of sin. The Bible refers to this power as the man who is both against Christ and against God's law. Christ is the gospel, and this power is against Christ and also seeks to take Christ's place. (See quote from A.T. Jones' book, The Consecrated Way, on the next post, which speaks to the issue of Daniel 8: 11, 12.)

E.J. Waggoner-- The Gospel in Creation:

Quote:

THE OLD TESTAMENT IS THE GOSPEL: Not only so, but the Old Testament contains the gospel. In the verse following the one last quoted we read, "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven." That is, the prophets, Moses among them, ministered the very same things that were preached by the apostles, namely the gospel. Since the gospel of God is "concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 1:1-3), and the Jews would necessarily have believed in Jesus if they had

believed Moses, because Moses wrote of Christ, it follows that what Moses wrote was the gospel.

THE GOSPEL IN CREATION: The first thing that Moses wrote, through the inspiration of the Spirit of God, was the story of creation. That, therefore, is one of the things through which we are to receive hope and comfort. Why is it that we can receive hope and comfort through the story of the creation? Because that story contains the gospel. A few words will serve to establish this fact before we proceed to study the lessons in detail. The declaration of the apostle, that the gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth"

(Romans 1:16), is familiar to all who have ever heard the gospel preached. The gospel is the manifestation of God's power put forth to save men. The same thing is stated in substance by the apostle Peter when he speaks of the inheritance reserved in heaven for those "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" (1 Peter 1:5).

CREATION, THE MEASURE OF GOD'S POWER: But what is the measure of the power of God? Wherein is it seen in a tangible form? Read Romans 1:20, where we are told that ever since the creation of the world, the invisible things of God, even His eternal power and Godhead, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made. It is in creation, therefore, that the power of God is to be seen by everybody. But the power of God in the line of salvation is the gospel. Therefore the works of creation teach the gospel. This is declared in Psalm

19, where we read, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language; without these their voice is heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

[John317]

A. T. Jones on the attack by the little horn power against the gospel--

On Daniel 8: 11, 12:

And it is this continual service of Christ, the true High Priest, "who continueth ever," and "who is consecrated forevermore" in "an unchangeable priesthood"--it is this continual service of our great High Priest, which the man of sin, the Papacy, has taken away. It is the sanctuary and the true tabernacle in which this true High Priest exercises His continual ministry that has been cast down by "the transgression of desolation." It is this ministry and this sanctuary that the "man of sin" has taken away from the church and shut away from the world and has cast down to the ground and stamped upon and in place of which it has set up itself "the abomination that maketh desolate." What the former Rome did physically to the visible or earthly sanctuary, which was "the figure of the true" (Dan. 9:26, 27; Matt. 24:15), that the latter Rome has done spiritually to the invisible or heavenly sanctuary that is in itself the true." Dan. 11:31; 12:11; 8:11, 13.

In the footnote quotation on page 91 [see below] it is shown that in the apostasy, the bishops, presbyters, deacons, and the eucharist were made to succeed the high priest, priests, Levites and sacrifices of the Levitical system. Now by every evidence of the Scriptures, it is certain that, in the order of God it was Christ and His ministry and sanctuary in heaven and this alone, that in truth was the object of the Levitical system and that is truly the Christian succession to that system. Therefore when in and by the apostasy the system of bishops as high priests, presbyters as priests, deacons as Levites, and the Supper as a sacrifice was insinuated as the Christian succession to the Levitical system, this of itself was nothing else than to put this false system of the apostasy in the place of the true, completely to shut out the true, and finally, to cast it down to the ground and stamp upon it.

And this is how it is that this great Christian truth of the true priesthood, ministry, and sanctuary of Christ is not known to the Christian world today. The "man of sin" has taken it away and cast it down to the ground and stamped upon it. The "mystery of iniquity" has hid this great truth from the church and the world during all these ages in which the man of sin has held place in the world and has passed itself off as God and its iniquitous host as the church of God.

And yet, even the "man of sin," the "mystery of iniquity," itself bears witness to the necessity of such a service in the church in behalf of sins. For though the "man of sin," the "mystery of iniquity," has taken away the true priesthood, ministry, and sanctuary of Christ and has cast these down to the ground to be stamped upon and has completely hid them from the eyes of the Christian world, yet she did not utterly throw away the idea. No, she threw away the true and cast down the true to the ground but, retaining the idea in the place of the true, she built up in her own realm an utterly false structure.

In the place of Christ, the true and divine High Priest of God's own appointment in heaven, she has substituted a human, sinful, and sinning priesthood on earth. In the place of the continual, heavenly ministry of Christ in His true priesthood upon His true sacrifice, she has substituted only an interval ministry of a human, earthly, sinful, and sinning priesthood in the once-a-day "daily sacrifice of the mass." And in the place of the sanctuary and the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched and not man, she has substituted her own meeting-places of wood and stone, to which she applies the term "sanctuary." Thus, instead of the one continual High Priest, the one continual ministry, and the one continual sanctuary in heaven, which God has ordained and which is the only true, she has devised out of her own heart and substituted for the only true, many high priests, many ministries, many sacrifices, and many sanctuaries, on earth, which in every possible relation are only human and utterly false.

And it can never take away sin. No earthly priesthood, no earthly ministry, no earthly sacrifice or service in any earthly sanctuary can ever take away sin. In the book of Hebrews we have seen that even the priesthood, the ministry, the sacrifice, and the service in the earthly sanctuary--the very service which the Lord Himself ordained on earth--never took away sin. The inspired record is that they never did take away sin, and that they never could take away sin.

It is only the priesthood and the ministry of Christ that can ever take away sin. And this is a priesthood and a ministry in heaven and of a sanctuary that is in heaven. For when Christ was on earth he was not a priest and if He had remained on earth until this hour, He would not yet be a priest, as it stands written, "If he were on earth, He should not be a priest." Heb. 8:4. Thus, by plain word and abundant illustration, God has demonstrated that no earthly priesthood, sacrifice, or ministry can ever take away sin.

If any such could take away sin, then why could not that which God Himself ordained on earth take away sin? If any such could take away sin, then why change the priesthood and the ministry from earth to heaven? Therefore, by the plain word of the Lord, it is plain that the priesthood, the ministry, the sacrifice, and the sanctuary which the Papacy has set up and operates on earth can never take away sin, but, instead, only perpetuates sin, is a fraud, an imposture, and the very "transgression" and "abomination of desolation" is [sic.] the most holy place.

And that this conclusion and statement as to what the papal system really is is not extravagant nor far-fetched, is confirmed by the words of Cardinal Baronius, the standard annalist of the papacy. Writing of the tenth century, he says: "In this century the abomination of desolation was seen in the temple of the Lord; and in the See of St. Peter, reverenced by angels, were placed the most wicked of men; not pontiffs, but monsters." And the council of Rheims in 991 declared the papacy to be "the man of sin, the mystery of iniquity."

The Consecrated Way, pp 72-74.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The days reveal which gospel you have picked! The days don't save, the gospel saves. The days simply point to your choice. They confirm your choice.

The issue reveals who we worship and obey. The test shows whether we belong to God or to Satan. That is what the choice of Adam and Eve revealed: it showed that they changed who they would obey.

False! The issue is the gospel.

[Robert]

The gospel has been perverted in a number of different ways....The Spirit of prophecy speaks of one of the great perversions, and it is the teaching that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the commandments of God.

Repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it truth!

The gospel is not what Christ does in you. The gospel is not the fruit of salvation. The gospel is not the imparted righteousness of Christ.

The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate, fallen humanity. The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of man and the Son of God. The gospel is the truth as it is "in Christ." The gospel is rooted in agape love!

Now, how was the gospel perverted?

Agape and the Great Controversy

When Satan rebelled against God in heaven [Revelation 12:7-9], he was really rebelling against God’s agape love the spirit of His law [Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:13-14]. The idea that “love (agape) seeketh not her own” (i.e., self) [1 Corinthians 13:5] was too restrictive to Lucifer. Consequently he objected to it and introduced the principle of self-love or eros [Ezekiel 28:15; Isaiah 14:12-14]. Therefore, ever since his fall, the enemy of God and man (Satan) has hated the concept of agape. When this concept was restored to the human race [size:14pt]through the preaching of the gospel, he naturally was ready to attack it with all his might [Revelation 12:10-12]. Hence, the very first thing he attacked in the Christian church was not the sabbath or the state of the dead, but he zeroed in first on the concept of God’s agape love.

After the disciples had passed away from the scene, the leadership of the church fell into the hands of the church “Fathers,” who were of Greek origin. Immediately the great battle to substitute eros concepts for agape began.

The Greeks were insulted that the New Testament writers ignored the highest form of love in their language (heavenly eros). They felt that the disciples of Christ, who were all Jews (except Luke), did not really understand their language and, therefore, a correction had to be made. The first to attempt this was Marcion (died in 160 A.D.). He was succeeded by Origen (died in 254 A.D.) who actually changed John’s sublime statement “God is agape” [1 John 4:8] to “God is eros.” However, the battle did not stop there; it continued until we come to Augustine, the fourth century bishop of Hippo (North Africa) and one of the great “fathers” of Roman Catholic theology.

Augustine realized how futile it was to substitute eros for agape. Instead he did a very smart thing. By using Greek logic, he took the concepts of agape as well as eros and married the two together, producing a synthesis which he called caritas (Latin) and from which we get our English word charity, the word that is often used in our KJV for agape. This word caritas was not only accepted by Christendom but became the key word to define divine and Christian love in Roman Catholic theology. Its meaning was a mixture of agape and eros so that the gospel was perverted from “Not I, but Christ” [Galatians 2:20] to “I plus Christ,” a concept of the gospel still prevalent today. The moment the pure meaning of agape was corrupted, the gospel became perverted with self-love, and the Christian church lost its power and was plunged into darkness. It was not until the Reformation (16th Century) that Luther realized the problem and tried to break the synthesis. However, the church today is to a large degree still groping in darkness as to the true meaning of the gospel.

The Three Gospels

Today three concepts of love exist: the concept of eros or self-love; the concept of God’s agape or self-giving love; and the concept of caritas, a mixture of self-love (eros and agape). Each of these three concepts have produced in human history their own kind of gospel. The pagans who are steeped in eros have produced in their various religions the gospel of works. As Aristotle, the great Greek philosopher, declared: “Salvation is the movement of the creature towards God.” Plato taught a similar idea, and believed that God only saves the lovable. In other words, the eros gospel teaches that man must save himself by pleasing God through sacrifices and good works, to make himself lovable. We call this “legalism” or salvation by works, the basis of all non-Christian religions.

At the heart of Roman Catholic theology is the caritas gospel: man must first give evidence he wants to be saved through his good works, and when God sees this, He will meet him halfway to save him. This gospel teaches that we must do our best to meet God’s ideal and Christ will make up the difference.* The Galatian Christians fell into this trap [Galatians 3:1-3] and so have a great number of Christians today the religion of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification. This is a subtle legalism.

The Bible however subscribes to neither the eros or the caritas gospel. In complete contradiction to the above two gospels, the apostles taught that while we were “helpless,” “ungodly,” “sinners,” and even “enemies,” God demonstrated His agape love towards sinful men through the death of His Son, which fully reconciled us to Him [Romans 5:6-10]. This agape gospel is the clear teaching of the New Testament. [John 3:16, Ephesians 2:1-6, 1 Timothy 1:15, Titus 3:3-5 are but a few examples.] Both the eros gospel as well as the caritas gospel may be described as conditional good news; but the agape gospel which turned the world upside down in apostolic times [Acts 17:6] is unconditional good news.

It is this gospel that the world desperately needs to see restored and witnessed today, and which will lighten the earth with His glory [Revelation 18:1] before the end comes [Matthew 24:14; Revelation 14:6-15]. [The Dynamics of the

Everlasting Gospel by E.H. “Jack” Sequeira]

Notes:

* This is the gospel presented by folks like Gerry and John

[Robert]

1. Human love, either philos or Plato’s “heavenly eros,” is always conditional. As humans, we do not love the unlovely. We love those who love us, who respond to our love. God’s agape love, on the other hand, is unconditional. It flows from Him spontaneously, without cause, independently of our goodness or self-worth. When we understand this, God’s salvation becomes unconditional good news [see Romans 5:6-10; Ephesians 2:4-6; Titus 3:3-5]. This is why the Bible so clearly stresses that we are saved by grace alone — God’s undeserved, unmerited favor [see Acts 15:11; Romans 3:24; 5:15; 11:6; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8, 9; Titus 1:14; 2:11; 3:7].

2. Human love is changeable. It is a love that fluctuates and is unreliable. A good example of this, and also of the way the New Testament writers deliberately used different words for love, is John 21:15-17. Three times in these verses Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him, and three times Peter replies that he does. In our English Bibles it seems that Jesus’ questions and Peter’s answers are the same each time. But in His first two questions to Peter, Jesus uses agape, the love that will never fail. And Peter replies using the word philos, human affection. But when Jesus asks Peter the third time if he loves Him, He uses philos. It’s as if Jesus says, “Peter, is this the only kind of love you have for Me, this unreliable human love?” No wonder Peter becomes upset! But he is now truly converted and has lost all confidence in himself. In humility, he replies, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love [phileo] you.” This changeable, unreliable philos is the only kind of love that we human beings can generate in and of ourselves.

In complete contrast, however, God’s agape love is unchanging. To the unfaithful Jews, God declared, “I have loved you with an everlasting love” [Jeremiah 31:3]. In Paul’s classic description of divine love, “[agape] never fails” [1 Corinthians 13:8]. Jesus demonstrated this beyond all doubt on the cross when, “having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them [agapao] the full extent of his love” [John 13:1].

When we realize this unchanging, unchangeable nature of God’s love for us, we will become “rooted and established in love [agape]” [Ephesians 3:17]. We will say with Paul,

“Who shall separate us from the love [agape] of Christ? ...For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love [agape] of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” [Romans 8:35, 38, 39].

3. At its very best, human love is self-seeking. Since we are by nature egocentric, everything we do or think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, even religiously, we are all slaves to “our own way” [isaiah 53:6; cf. Philippians 2:21]. As we saw in the previous chapter, we are all shaped in “iniquity”; that is, we are bent toward self. Consequently, we all, without exception, fall short of God’s glory, His agape love [see Romans 3:23].

God’s love is the exact opposite. It is self-sacrificing, self-giving. That is why Christ did not cling to His equality with the Father, but emptied Himself and became God’s slave, obedient even to death on a cross [see Philippans 2:6-8]. All during His life on earth, Jesus demonstrated His Father’s agape love. This is “the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father,” that the disciples saw in Him [John 1:14]. He lived for the benefit of others; He actually became poor for our sakes, that we, through His poverty, might be rich [see 2 Corinthians 8:9].

There is no self-love in God’s love. This love, reproduced in the lives of Christians through the Holy Spirit, is the most powerful witness of the transforming, saving power of the gospel [see John 13:34, 35].

The supreme manifestation of God’s self-sacrificing love was demonstrated on the cross when Jesus Christ died the second death for all humanity [see Hebrews 2:9]. The second death is the complete cessation of life; it is saying good-bye to life forever. It’s obvious that this is the death Jesus submitted to for us, since Christians who are justified in Christ still have to die the first death (the “sleep” death), but will be exempted from the second death [see Revelation 20:6]. On the cross, Jesus was willing to be deprived of life forever, not just for three days, so that we could live in His place. Such self-emptying love transformed His disciples. Before the cross, they were dominated by self-interest [see Luke 22:24]. After the cross, they were willing to follow Jesus’ example in sacrificing themselves for others. In the same way, when we see the self-sacrificing love of Jesus shining from the cross, we, too, will be transformed [see 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15].

In summary, then, human love is conditional; God’s love is unconditional. Our human love is changeable; God’s love is changeless. Our human love is self-centered; God’s love is self-sacrificing. Not until we recognize this three-fold quality of God’s agape love will the gospel become unconditional good news to us. And not until we become “rooted and grounded” in His agape love will we be able to cast out all fear and serve Him with unselfish motives [see 1 John 4:7, 12, 16-18]. [beyond Belief by E.H. ‘Jack’ Sequeira]

[aldona]

Quote:

Circumcision was a sign given to males not females -- and was not an indication that women were not justified.

I am a late comer to this discussion so please forgive this return to an earlier part of the thread.

I have been searching through all the Jewish sources I could find (commentaries on the Talmud, other rabbinical traditions, scholarly books on this subject) and most of them sum up the point in one of the following ways:

- A female is born already circumcised. (Thus: a female Jewish infant is Jewish "by default", in contrast to a male, who must have a piece of flesh removed to "become" Jewish.)

- A female resembles a male who has already been circumcised.

(this is also somehow related to the idea that the female parent determines "Jewishness", i.e. if you are born to a Jewish woman, then you are a Jew.)

Any comments?

It certainly sounds like a more sympathetic approach to the female than a lot of Christian sources I have read.

aldona

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Rom 2

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

That just about summs up the spiritual meaning for circumcision.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The gospel has been perverted in a number of different ways....The Spirit of prophecy speaks of one of the great perversions, and it is the teaching that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the commandments of God.

Repeating a lie over and over doesn't make it truth!

Originally Posted By: Robert

[size:14pt] 1. Human love, either philos or Plato’s “heavenly eros,” is always conditional. As humans, we do not love the unlovely. We love those who love us, who respond to our love. God’s agape love, on the other hand, is unconditional. It flows from Him spontaneously, without cause, independently of our goodness or self-worth. When we understand this, God’s salvation becomes unconditional good news [see Romans 5:6-10; Ephesians 2:4-6; Titus 3:3-5]. This is why the Bible so clearly stresses that we are saved by grace alone — God’s undeserved, unmerited favor [see Acts 15:11; Romans 3:24; 5:15; 11:6; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8, 9; Titus 1:14; 2:11; 3:7].

God's agape love has no conditions. Salvation and justification are conditional.

John 3: 16-

For God so loves the world that He gave His one and only Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES on Him may not perish but have everlasting life.

Notice it doesn't say "whoever believed once" but it is a continuous, personal faith and trust in Christ that continues throughout life.

It's unconditional only to those who believe in "once saved always saved."

[Robert]

Salvation and justification are conditional

Tell that to the babies who will be heaven. Tell that to the billions...zillions who will be in heaven that never heard the name of Christ.

Yes, for those who have the Bible...who hear the gospel, acceptance of Christ is required. But faith doesn't save because they were already saved unconditionally in the doing and dying of Christ. Faith merely makes it effective in their lives.

[Robert]

Rom 2:25-29

what Paul is doing is destroying every confidence that men have, Jew or Gentile, in themselves. Because he cannot give the gospel unless he has destroyed that confidence.

I remember preaching at a series of meetings at a Pentecostal church in Addis Abbaba [Ethiopia] and one day the pastor said to me, “Why don’t you preach on the Sabbath?”

So I gave them full studies, and do you know, the whole church turned to Sabbath-keeping. They call themselves Seventh-day Pentecostals. One day, the pastor came to our church in Addis Abbaba to hear me preach and the sabbath school secretary of our union turned to him and said, “I hear you people are keeping the Sabbath.” They had 800 members in their church.

The pastor said, “Yes.”

The secretary said, “Why did you change your name? All you had to do was join our church. We keep the Sabbath.”

The pastor replied, “I hate to say this, but I am going to be honest. When you Adventists learn how to love and be warm to other Christians, we will join you.”

So, that was a slap in the face.

But folks, we boast that we keep the law of God because we love Jesus. Are we really loving Jesus? For if we love Jesus we will love our neighbors. Are we making the same mistake as the Jews? Are we blaspheming the name of God? Look at Romans 2:26:

If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

See, God is looking at the heart of people. Are we right inside? As long as we have outward conformity, that means nothing to God.

Now what is Paul trying to say here? Can you imagine what the Jews were thinking by the time that chapter 2 was read? Does Paul mean that there was no advantage to being a Jew? Is there no advantage in being a Seventh-day Adventist? The answer is in verse 1 of chapter 3 of Romans:

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

God gave the Jews the truth as it is in Christ. He gave them the truth to lead them to Christ. What was wrong with the Jews? They took the truth and they perverted it. They made the law the means of salvation. Instead of the law showing them their total depravity so that they may go to Christ for salvation, they made the law their salvation. My dear people, we have the truth, but has the truth led us to a closer walk with Jesus Christ? That’s the question.

I want to remind you in closing that Paul has a purpose in dealing with the sin problem, both with the Gentiles and with the Jews. The purpose of this passage, up to chapter 3, verse 20, is to destroy in every human being, confidence in yourself, in your ability, in your origin, in everything that you rely on, that you may accept nothing else but Jesus Christ as your hope and as your righteousness. In other words, Paul is saying, “I don’t care if you are Jew or if you are a Gentile. The whole world is under sin. The whole world is a slave to sin. The whole world is controlled by sin and, therefore, by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Let me put it this way, the formula of the gospel, as I have mentioned before and I repeat again today, is: “Not I, but Christ.” The hardest part of the formula is the first part, “Not I.” That is the purpose of this first section of Romans. Paul paints a gloomy, dismal picture of not only the Gentile world, but of his own people, the Jews. It doesn’t matter if you are in the church or you are out of the church, we are 100 percent sinners and, once we are convinced of that, we will stop pointing fingers at each other.

You see, if I think of myself as 80 percent a sinner and you are 100 percent a sinner, I can point my finger at you because I am 20 percent better than you. But if we all are 100 percent sinners, we all belong to the same camp and together we will turn to Jesus Christ and his gospel as our only hope.

In concluding, I want to give you a text which is Paul’s burden in this passage. Philippians 3:3, and this is the purpose of this passage, so please don’t get discouraged. As I mentioned last Sabbath, Paul has to destroy your confidence in yourself before he can say, “But now I have good news.” You see, Christ did not come to save good people, he didn’t even come to save 99 percent sinners, but he came to save only 100 percent sinners and we must reach that point before the gospel can become fully effective in our lives. Here is Paul’s true application of circumcision, here is what it means to worship God in the spirit (Philippians 3:3):

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus...

To worship God in the spirit means to rejoice in Christ Jesus. That’s not difficult if the other half is already reached. And here it is:

...and who put no confidence in the flesh....

Please notice that “Not I, but Christ.” When you have no confidence in the flesh, then you and I are ready for the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now there is one more study — Romans 3:9-20 — where Paul summarizes and concludes the universal sin problem. I realize it’s a dark, dismal, hopeless picture, but there is good news ahead and Paul is simply preparing us for that good news. I pray that you will not be among those who will feel insulted by what Paul is writing about the human race — about you and me — but that you will agree with Paul: “Paul, you are dead right, we are sinners. Our hope is in Jesus Christ and His righteousness alone.”

May God help us to realize our total depravity, that in and apart from the grace of God we are incapable of doing one bit of righteousness in the spirit. We may be doing it in the letter, but not in the spirit.

May God help us to take what Paul is saying about the Jews and apply to us, and say, “Paul, thank you for opening our eyes. We recognize that there is nothing good in us. Thank you, so that we may accept the gift of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

May God help us that we shall know this truth and the truth will make us free. Amen. [JS]

[John317]

Quote:

He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

It is true that we all fall short of the glory of God, but it is not true that Spirit-filled believers are sinning all the time and cannot cease to sin.

The apostle Peter says it is the rebellious who cannot cease to sin. See 2 Peter 2: 14. Compare with 1 John 3: 1-10; Romans 6:1, 15.

Your quote above did not quote what I was saying. Here's the full statement that I made:

Our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) He believes that at some point in the future people will obey God's commandments but no one is doing it now.

This is despite the fact that there are many verses that have no meaning or do not make sense if no one keeps God's commandments. For instance, 1 John 2, 3, and 5.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Salvation and justification are conditional

Tell that to the babies who will be heaven. Tell that to the billions...zillions who will be in heaven that never heard the name of Christ.

Yes, for those who have the Bible...who hear the gospel, acceptance of Christ is required. But faith doesn't save because they were already saved unconditionally in the doing and dying of Christ. Faith merely makes it effective in their lives.

I'm talking about adults, not babies, of course.

If the gospel is not necessary, God would not have sent Christian missionaries and preachers all over the globe with the gospel commission.

The Bible statement stands:

No one will see the Kingdom of God without being born from above.

God saves us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

(Remember we're not talking about babies. The Bible says nothing about babies per se.)

The way you describe it would make a person feel that it is easier to be saved if they never hear the gospel. Then they must have faith, whereas (according to this kind of thinking) they will be saved without faith if they never hear the gospel.

Is this what you're saying?

[Robert]

Our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) He believes that at some point in the future people will obey God's commandments but no one is doing it now.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) He believes that at some point in the future people will obey God's commandments but no one is doing it now.

"So long as Satan reigns [i.e., as long as he is "the god of this world"], we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [habitual, repetitious sins] to overcome; so long as life shall last [i.e., until we die], there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [i.e., to perfection].....

Originally Posted By: John

This is despite the fact that there are many verses that have no meaning or do not make sense if no one keeps God's commandments. For instance, 1 John 2, 3, and 5.

Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience." [AA 560]

Despite the fact that we have (future tense) "besetting sins to overcome" and despite the fact that we haven't reached perfection [what the letter and the spirit of the law requires] she calls our attempts, obedience.

So what does she mean by obedience? It can be obedience to the law because we still have besetting sins...we still fall short of God's agape as seen in the life of Jesus.

We're in basic agreement here.

The problem I've had with some of the things you've written is that you have appeared to deny that anyone can possibly obey God or obey God's commandments.

Neither the Apostle John nor Ellen White are denying that we fall short of God's glorious ideal.

And neither of them are making those statements in the context of someone trying to earn justification or salvation by law-keeping.

Therefore, when I talk about God's wanting us and empowering us to keep His commandments, I'm not talking about earning salvation any more than the Apostle John or Ellen White are. I'm not implying that we don't have sins that we need to overcome or that we don't fall short.

It all has to with relationship with Christ. If we love him we will keep his commandments. He doesn't say that if we don't keep them perfectly, we aren't keeping them. But neither should we be saying it doesn't matter if you obey Him.