Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[Robert]

If so, where do you find evidence that the Christian today is released from obeying the Ten Commandments? Where specifically in the Bible does it say believers are released from any obligation to keep the Sabbath holy?

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?...6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Gal 5:3 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

Nothing about the Sabbath.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Where do you find evidence in the New Testament that the weekly Sabbath was denied or rejected?

Quote:

ROBERT-- Where do you find' date=' in the NT, that it was commanded?

All of the Ten Commandments are part of the New Covenant and in the New Testament.

But why would the Sabbath commandment have been repeated word for word? Why does it need to be? Isn't it enough for God to say it once? Why would God need to repeat it in the way He gave it at Sinai?

In Matt. 24: 20, Christ certainly showed that He fully expected His followers would be keeping it. Also, Luke 23: 56, which was written 20 years after the resurrection, still refers to the Sabbath as "the Sabbath," not as if it was done away with. And he points out that Jesus' followers were still keeping it "according to the commandments." There is absolutely no hint that the Sabbath no longer exists or that it is viewed with disfavor.

And Hebrews 4 shows clearly that the Sabbath is still being kept. There is no hint that the Sabbath day is not being kept. In fact, it is obvious that the Sabbath is viewed positively as a time when people are to call to mind the appeal of Christ's offer of salvation by faith.

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Do you believe that the Sabbath was done away with under the New Covenant?

Quote:

ROBERT-- I believe the Sabbath will be linked to restoration of the gospel. [/quote']

Yes but I asked if the Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant?

If not, when did the Sabbath cease to exist?

If it did cease to exist, can it be added to the New Covenant later on?

[John317]

What do you think?

Quote:

As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the

third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to

the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.

By uniting with the world and partaking of its spirit, they have come to

view matters in nearly the same light; and when the test is brought,

they are prepared to choose the easy, popular side. Men of talent and

pleasing address, who once rejoiced in the truth, employ their powers to

deceive and mislead souls. They become the most bitter enemies of their

former brethren. When Sabbathkeepers are brought before the courts to

answer for their faith, these apostates are the most efficient agents of

Satan to misrepresent and accuse them, and by false reports and

insinuations to stir up the rulers against them.

All true?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If so, where do you find evidence that the Christian today is released from obeying the Ten Commandments? Where specifically in the Bible does it say believers are released from any obligation to keep the Sabbath holy?

Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?...6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Gal 5:3 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

Nothing about the Sabbath.

I don't believe your argument here, but let us assume for the moment that you are right.

Is the Sabbath commandment the only one we are released from?

If that is true and we are released from the law-- that is, if the law is null and void-- how can there be any consequences at all for not keeping the seventh-day Sabbath?

How can there by any consequences for any violation of God's law?

Perhaps you will keep the Sabbath at some time in the future. But perhaps not. What difference does it make if all human beings are released from obedience to the law by their faith in Christ?

[Robert]

Are you under conviction that God wants you to sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor? Maybe you are, but I do not understand that verse to be teaching that.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Are you under conviction that God wants you to sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor? Maybe you are, but I do not understand that verse to be teaching that.

Of course you aren't, John. You do love yourself after all! What happened to just obeying God and doing what He says?

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Are you under this conviction that God wants you to sell all of your possessions?

[Robert]

The law is written on our hearts and minds by doing God's will and by studying it and by praying that God will write it in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. You can resist God's law.

More bull!

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves....

Were they keeping the Sabbath? No! They knew by instinct that murder, theft, adultery, etc were wrong.

[Robert]

Here's the bottom line in your push of the Sabbath:

3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [which was also a sign], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law

“Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10]

John, you must be rejected....You are a modern day Judaizer. You are a self-righteous know it all who pushes those laws he likes while dismissing those that he doesn't.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The law is written on our hearts and minds by doing God's will and by studying it and by praying that God will write it in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. You can resist God's law.

More bull!

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves....

Were they keeping the Sabbath? No! They knew by instinct that murder, theft, adultery, etc were wrong.

Redwood told me that you and he are promoting love on the threads here.

What is the context of Roman 2: 14? It is judgment and condemnation. It is not saying that the Gentiles are obeying God's law because it is written on their hearts under the New Covenant. Compare carefully Romans 2: 13. Notice Paul does not say that these people are obeying God.

Their disobedience is why the Gentiles desperately need the preaching of the gospel (Romans 11: 14, 15). See and compare Romans 1: 18-32. Romans 2: 14 simply means that the Gentiles know what the sins of the flesh are (as in Gal. 5: 19-21. It does not mean they are obeying the law. They sometimes obey it, but more often not. This is clear from history as well as from the book of Acts and Romans 1 and Paul's epistles to the Corinthians, Colossians, Titus, and Revelation. Paul is simply making the point to the Jews in Rome that the Jews often do worse things than the Gentiles who do not have the Scriptures. Paul's idea is that it isn't important just who has the law, but it depends on who is actually putting the law of God into practice.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The law is written on our hearts and minds by doing God's will and by studying it and by praying that God will write it in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. You can resist God's law.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves....

Were they keeping the Sabbath? No! They knew by instinct that murder, theft, adultery, etc were wrong.

So, then, since they knew these things "by instinct," did they not need the Holy Spirit to write the law on their hearts by faith?

Is "instinct" what the Bible is talking about in Hebrews 8 and 10 when it speaks of the Holy Spirit writing the laws of God on believer's hearts?

Or is Hebrews 8 and 10 talking about an intelligent, willing, loving faith?

[John317]

Here's the bottom line in your push of the Sabbath:

3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [which was also a sign], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law

“Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10]

John, you must be rejected....You are a modern day Judaizer. You are a self-righteous know it all who pushes those laws he likes while dismissing those that he doesn't.

Rob

The quotes are totally unrelated to what this discussion is all about. We are not talking about obedience in order to earn merit or earn justification. We are talking about what we will do if our faith is genuine. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." And 1 John 1: 6, 7:

6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

[John317]

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law' date=' these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves....

Were they keeping the Sabbath? No! They knew by instinct that murder, theft, adultery, etc were wrong.[/quote']

So, then, since they knew these things "by instinct," did they not need the Holy Spirit to write the law on their hearts by faith?

In Gen 3 God puts war between the seed of the woman and seed of serpent.

in John 16 the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

The Romans 2 argument "they do instintively the things of the law" conveys that no human nor book instructs them but as Romans 2 points out at the end of the chapter - the work of the Holy Spirit is to perform the true spiritual circumcision which is of the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Here's the bottom line in your push of the Sabbath:

3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [which was also a sign], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law

“Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10]

There is no mentiong of Sabbath here or of the Levitical law "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 or of the Deut Law "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 or of the command to honor parents etc.

The point "in context" for Gal 3 is the manufactured non-OT requirement of Gentiles to "Become Jews" to be saved. (As we see in Acts 15:1-2).

That was never required in the OT or the NT.

It is a man-made idea being debunked by Paul in Gal 3 as he points to the fact that even for Jews - keeping the law was not a means of salvation.

Therefore in Acts 16 the first thing we see is Paul instructing Timothy to become circumcised and he has no fear at all that this might be a "sign of legalism" since obviously it is not.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

So, then, since they knew these things "by instinct," did they not need the Holy Spirit to write the law on their hearts by faith?

In Gen 3 God puts war between the seed of the woman and seed of serpent.

in John 16 the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

The Romans 2 argument "they do instintively the things of the law" conveys that no human nor book instructs them but as Romans 2 points out at the end of the chapter - the work of the Holy Spirit is to perform the true spiritual circumcision which is of the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

That's a very good point. It's clear, then, that the fact that the Gentiles knew the difference between right and wrong in terms of some sins, doesn't mean there is no need for preaching and further learning of the Word of God.

[Robert]

Is the Sabbath commandment the only one we are released from?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Of course you aren't, John. You do love yourself after all! What happened to just obeying God and doing what He says?

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.[/quote']

No, it's fact. A legalist will not admit defeat. Hence he is rejecting 1 John 1:8

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Are you under this conviction that God wants you to sell all of your possessions?

The law doesn't care about conviction. What does the law demand? I mean you are the one that tells us the law is still binding, right? Make up your mind.

[Woody]

Quote:

You died to the law in the body of Christ. The law sees you as dead and hence the law can no longer condemn you.

Thank you Rob and praise God for what you have said here. This is the gospel in a nutshell. There is no longer any condemnation for those IN Christ.

Appreciate you reminding us ...

[Robert]

What is the context of Roman 2:14? It is judgment and condemnation.

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law [i.e., the Gentiles] will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

The context of the above is what it means to live under the shadow of the law. If the law is binding...if the law has jurisdiction over you, then it doesn't matter if you sinned without the law or under the law because either way you must die. Only the doers of the law can be justified before God. If you aren't measuring up you are not a doer and hence the law will condemn you.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel [not the law], God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

So you are wrong. These Gentiles were revealing love as found in the last 6 commandments. They weren't instinctively keeping the Sabbath. Why? It was never written in the heart.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here's the bottom line in your push of the Sabbath:

3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [which was also a sign], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law

“Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10]

John, you must be rejected....You are a modern day Judaizer. You are a self-righteous know it all who pushes those laws he likes while dismissing those that he doesn't.

Rob

The quotes are totally unrelated to what this discussion is all about. We are not talking about obedience in order to earn merit or earn justification.

Not at all....You are making the Sabbath binding....That is legalism. If you make the Sabbath binding, you must make the whole law binding. Hence you must live Christ's life. That you are not doing and hence you have no right to push the Sabbath on me or anyone else. Comprehend?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But are these really excuses?

Do you think that it does not matter what other Christians say? If you say no, then you are basically saying I should not be interested in what you say. [/quote']

John, like a Baptist guy told me a work - "You can't change the mind of a legalist"!

I'm not here to change your mind, I'm here to save others from your theology - from a yoke of bondage!

[Robert]

That was never required in the OT or the NT.

Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 “And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 “And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. 13 “A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 “But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Is the Sabbath commandment the only one we are released from?

No, all the law....

I know that sounds like heresy to you, but if you make one commandment binding you must make all of them binding. That's what Paul states in Gal 3:10.

Gal. 3: 10 is not related to the topic of whether faith releases believers from the law. Paul is addressing the subject of whether a man can be justified before obedience to law or whether we are justified by faith.

That is not the same thing as teaching that faith releases us from obedience to God's commandments.

Paul dealt with that issue in Romans 6: 1 and 15, when he asked, "Shall we go ahead and sin more since we are under grace?" He answers that this not what he had in mind. "May it never be."

In 1 Cor. 7: 19 and 9: 21, Paul shows clearly that believers are still expected to obey the commandments or law of God.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law

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There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. SC 58-61

[Robert]

It's clear, then, that the fact that the Gentiles knew the difference between right and wrong in terms of some sins, doesn't mean there is no need for preaching and further learning of the Word of God.

John...man, you like those rules. Pack 'm on...load 'm down. Rules, rules, rules.

The day you live Christ's life of selflessness that day I'll say John is a holy man. Until then, you are a sinner.

The Gentiles were experiencing genuine agape love that is in harmony with the last 6 commandments.

If you think about it, my not working has nothing to do with sin. My not working is only a sign....The fact I don't work on the 7th day doesn't negate the fact that I am sinful. So the "not working" doesn't make me sinless.

Anyway, here's the final word on the Sabbath:

1] The Sabbath of creation became insignificant after the fall.

2] This was substantiated when the restored law changed the meaning that the Sabbath was kept.

3] Since I was not saved from Egyptian bondage the Sabbath is meaningless to me.

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption

So, the law is binding then, right?

"Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”